NationStates

Agarntrop wrote:

Esalia wrote:
Yes.

And during the removal of people from your property, they do not need to be destroyed, unlike abortion.

So by this logic child abandonment should be legal?

We do allow people to give up their children if they don't want them.

Honestly there are way better arguments to justify abortion than this.

Eh, to me "born people don't get the right to use other people's bodies without their consent, so fetuses shouldn't get the right to use other people's bodies without their consent" is one of the better ones.

I'm against the glorification of Abortion, as if it's some heroic act, especially when woke news outlets like Buzzfeed label those who participate in it as "Stunning" and "Brave". I know family members who have had abortions and they always keep it private. It hasn't effected my relationships with them although I view it as immoral. I just zip my lips to keep the peace and they do the same.

Molither wrote:I don't want to bring this up again too much but isn't the science not fully settled on fetal pain? It's impossible to ask the fetus and I've heard conflicting accounts today. The current scientific answer to the 12 week pain sensation as you explained is a response to stimuli.

It actually is settled, the fetus cannot experience pain until the third trimester, which is well after the time when abortions are carried out.

Agarntrop wrote:

The Caleshan Valkyrie wrote:
It’s like ‘necessary force’ just becomes this alien and incomprehensible concept for folks in this line of discussion...

During an abortion the fetus is destroyed.

This is largely irrelevant, as it is generally the only way it can be done. With actual children, you have the luxury of less lethal remedies at your disposal.

Molither wrote:I'm against the glorification of Abortion, as if it's some heroic act, especially when woke news outlets like Buzzfeed label those who participate in it as "Stunning" and "Brave". I know family members who have had abortions and they always keep it private. It hasn't effected my relationships with them although I view it as immoral. I just zip my lips to keep the peace and they do the same.

Does this actually happen? I wouldn't be surprised if it does, considering it's Buzzfeed and all, but could you provide a source?

The New California Republic wrote:

Molither wrote:I don't want to bring this up again too much but isn't the science not fully settled on fetal pain? It's impossible to ask the fetus and I've heard conflicting accounts today. The current scientific answer to the 12 week pain sensation as you explained is a response to stimuli.

It actually is settled, the fetus cannot experience pain until the third trimester, which is well after the time when abortions are carried out.

Late term abortion is legal in several states.

The New California Republic wrote:

Molither wrote:I don't want to bring this up again too much but isn't the science not fully settled on fetal pain? It's impossible to ask the fetus and I've heard conflicting accounts today. The current scientific answer to the 12 week pain sensation as you explained is a response to stimuli.

It actually is settled, the fetus cannot experience pain until the third trimester, which is well after the time when abortions are carried out.

Yeah, I linked to that earlier.

Agarntrop wrote:

Molither wrote:I'm against the glorification of Abortion, as if it's some heroic act, especially when woke news outlets like Buzzfeed label those who participate in it as "Stunning" and "Brave". I know family members who have had abortions and they always keep it private. It hasn't effected my relationships with them although I view it as immoral. I just zip my lips to keep the peace and they do the same.

Does this actually happen? I wouldn't be surprised if it does, considering it's Buzzfeed and all, but could you provide a source?

Yeah... never heard of that either.

Like when Michelle Williams gave the speech at the OSCARs sayng she wouldn't be here where she is today if she didn't have an abortion.

It makes me think:

That's nothing to be proud about. It's shameful that we as a society discriminate against women and make them choose between a career and being a mother.
Michelle Williams shouldn't have had to choose between her baby and her career. In an ideal world she could have both.
It just seems like Liberal identity politics at its worst - the state in my opinion should provide enough so she could've had enough to pursue her career and raise a child.
What kind of message does this send young Girls? You can't have a baby while young and be successful?
The rate of abortion would be much lower if the rate of poverty was much lower. Most abortions are due to material circumstances.
But nevertheless I digress.

I see abortion as a sad thing but I won't try to stop people from having them.

Agarntrop wrote:

The New California Republic wrote:It actually is settled, the fetus cannot experience pain until the third trimester, which is well after the time when abortions are carried out.

Late term abortion is legal in several states.

Again it's exceedingly rare. Exceedingly rare. I can be forgiven for saying what I said, as it is accurate, as tiny sub-percentage stats are not enough to disrupt an overwhelming trend.

Molither wrote:Like when Michelle Williams gave the speech at the OSCARs sayng she wouldn't be here where she is today if she didn't have an abortion.

"The Oscars" is not an acronym, so not quite sure why you are capitalizing the letters as if it is one...

The New California Republic wrote:

Molither wrote:Like when Michelle Williams gave the speech at the OSCARs sayng she wouldn't be here where she is today if she didn't have an abortion.

"The Oscars" is not an acronym, so not quite sure why you are capitalizing the letters as if it is one...

Oh? I immediately think of Oscar the Grouch. Who's the other one?

The New California Republic wrote:

Agarntrop wrote:Late term abortion is legal in several states.

Again it's exceedingly rare. Exceedingly rare. I can be forgiven for saying what I said, as it is accurate, as tiny sub-percentage stats are not enough to disrupt an overwhelming trend.

I still think after a certain cutoff point it should be restricted.

Molither wrote:That's nothing to be proud about. It's shameful that we as a society discriminate against women and make them choose between a career and being a mother.

What do you want to do about that? Same pay as a man, but for fewer days/hours? And compensation or Affirmative Action for their career proceeding more slowly on fewer days/hours?

Maybe a kind of Marriage With Children contract, where the father is required to take equal time from work hours for parenting duty?

The Free Joy State wrote:

The New California Republic wrote:It actually is settled, the fetus cannot experience pain until the third trimester, which is well after the time when abortions are carried out.

Yeah, I linked to that earlier.

Agarntrop wrote:Does this actually happen? I wouldn't be surprised if it does, considering it's Buzzfeed and all, but could you provide a source?

Yeah... never heard of that either.

https://shoutyourabortion.com/writing/i ... oud-of-me/

The shout your abortion movement is one of the most crass ones and has been critiqued by pro-choicers and pro-lifers alike.

As for Buzzfeed they are firmly on the Abortion = good instead of a sad but sometimes necessary thing which I find morally wrong.

Agarntrop wrote:

The New California Republic wrote:Again it's exceedingly rare. Exceedingly rare. I can be forgiven for saying what I said, as it is accurate, as tiny sub-percentage stats are not enough to disrupt an overwhelming trend.

I still think after a certain cutoff point it should be restricted.

I think abortion for serious disability should remain an option up until birth. And since disability can begin late in term (eg a stroke) or only be diagnosed late in term, that rules out any cutoff.

A-Series-Of-Tubes wrote:

Agarntrop wrote:I still think after a certain cutoff point it should be restricted.

I think abortion for serious disability should remain an option up until birth. And since disability can begin late in term (eg a stroke) or only be diagnosed late in term, that rules out any cutoff.

I don't think we should be granting exemptions for disability unless such disability would cause either the mother or baby to die during either pregnancy or infancy. We shouldn't be trying to eliminate disabled people from the human race that way.

Molither wrote:

The Free Joy State wrote:Yeah, I linked to that earlier.

Yeah... never heard of that either.

https://shoutyourabortion.com/writing/i ... oud-of-me/

The shout your abortion movement is one of the most crass ones and has been critiqued by pro-choicers and pro-lifers alike.

As for Buzzfeed they are firmly on the Abortion = good instead of a sad but sometimes necessary thing which I find morally wrong.

Source for the buzzfeed claim?

Agarntrop wrote:

The New California Republic wrote:Again it's exceedingly rare. Exceedingly rare. I can be forgiven for saying what I said, as it is accurate, as tiny sub-percentage stats are not enough to disrupt an overwhelming trend.

I still think after a certain cutoff point it should be restricted.

And it most often is. But even when it isn't, I haven't seen any evidence that there is suddenly a mad rush for late-term abortions to be carried out that bumps up the stats to change the overall picture.

A-Series-Of-Tubes wrote:

Molither wrote:That's nothing to be proud about. It's shameful that we as a society discriminate against women and make them choose between a career and being a mother.

What do you want to do about that? Same pay as a man, but for fewer days/hours? And compensation or Affirmative Action for their career proceeding more slowly on fewer days/hours?

Maybe a kind of Marriage With Children contract, where the father is required to take equal time from work hours for parenting duty?

I'd advocate for a basic income for parents to help free them from economic constraints and be more flexible. Ideally both parents should share their duties equally but they could come to other arrangements. Currently Women perform on average more unpaid work than Men. This contributes to society but is seen as invisible so I think it's only fair they're compensated too. I'm no expert in Public Policy though.

Molither wrote:Like when Michelle Williams gave the speech at the OSCARs sayng she wouldn't be here where she is today if she didn't have an abortion.

That was the worst moment in Oscars history possibly, it’s kinda cringe and sad at the same time. Then Ricky Gervais said at the Golden Globes what everyone wanted to say to Hollywood for years

Molither wrote:It just seems like Liberal identity politics at its worst - the state in my opinion should provide enough so she could've had enough to pursue her career and raise a child.

Some countries have a Liberal Party, so capitalizing the word is avoidably ambiguous.

What kind of message does this send young Girls? You can't have a baby while young and be successful?
The rate of abortion would be much lower if the rate of poverty was much lower. Most abortions are due to material circumstances.

I think "don't have a baby while young" is excellent advice for young girls. Having a baby implies being a parent to a baby/child/teenager and young people are too stupid to be good parents. It does make them grow up fast, but what good is that when the first year is when a baby needs parenting the most?

About half of abortions are sought by women who have previously given birth (mothers, roughly). They don't want more children, and even if the only reason for that was lack of money, giving them more income would just raise "enough" from 2 to 3, or 3 to 4, or 4 to ... at some point you have to recognize that the woman has good reasons besides money, not to be a one-woman population explosion!

Really we should subsidise and encourage the use of contraception, which would drive down the abortion rate.

Kexholm Karelia wrote:

Molither wrote:Like when Michelle Williams gave the speech at the OSCARs sayng she wouldn't be here where she is today if she didn't have an abortion.

That was the worst moment in Oscars history possibly, it’s kinda cringe and sad at the same time. Then Ricky Gervais said at the Golden Globes what everyone wanted to say to Hollywood for years

It reminded me of the character she played in Shutter Island

A-Series-Of-Tubes wrote:

Molither wrote:It just seems like Liberal identity politics at its worst - the state in my opinion should provide enough so she could've had enough to pursue her career and raise a child.

Some countries have a Liberal Party, so capitalizing the word is avoidably ambiguous.

What kind of message does this send young Girls? You can't have a baby while young and be successful?
The rate of abortion would be much lower if the rate of poverty was much lower. Most abortions are due to material circumstances.

I think "don't have a baby while young" is excellent advice for young girls. Having a baby implies being a parent to a baby/child/teenager and young people are too stupid to be good parents. It does make them grow up fast, but what good is that when the first year is when a baby needs parenting the most?

About half of abortions are sought by women who have previously given birth (mothers, roughly). They don't want more children, and even if the only reason for that was lack of money, giving them more income would just raise "enough" from 2 to 3, or 3 to 4, or 4 to ... at some point you have to recognize that the woman has good reasons besides money, not to be a one-woman population explosion!

My (snarky) reply:
If they're going to keep on having children not to care for them they should follow the name of your nation and have their tubes tied.

Molither wrote:

A-Series-Of-Tubes wrote:
Some countries have a Liberal Party, so capitalizing the word is avoidably ambiguous.



I think "don't have a baby while young" is excellent advice for young girls. Having a baby implies being a parent to a baby/child/teenager and young people are too stupid to be good parents. It does make them grow up fast, but what good is that when the first year is when a baby needs parenting the most?

About half of abortions are sought by women who have previously given birth (mothers, roughly). They don't want more children, and even if the only reason for that was lack of money, giving them more income would just raise "enough" from 2 to 3, or 3 to 4, or 4 to ... at some point you have to recognize that the woman has good reasons besides money, not to be a one-woman population explosion!

My (snarky) reply:
If they're going to keep on having children not to care for them they should follow the name of your nation and have their tubes tied.

That's not the only method of contraception.