UK Politics Thread X: Boris' Big Bonkers Brexit Bash

[The Free Joy State]

Abuse has been hurled at staff -- the headteacher. She has received messages to "watch her back". And the school was closed because of the protests:

On Friday, the school closed at noon so that the children would not have to put up with a highly publicised “national protest” taking place outside their classrooms.

Indeed. Except Austria BH's claim was shifting the goalposts from Salandriagado's earlier claim that I was originally challenging.

The same article also says that the children of pro-inclusivity campaigners were pelted with eggs. Is that acceptable?

Parents were told they would burn in Hell if they take their children to school. Is that acceptable?

Standing outside the school -- shouting, daily -- is risking the kids' educational attainment. Before you even get to open threats, pelting kids with eggs and instructing parents to not take their children to school.

Children have a right to an uninterupted education. There are other places to protest.

I've already seen some pro-inclusivity campaigners were pelted. I've not seen evidence of the children of pro-inclusivity campaigners being pelted with eggs - is there evidence?

As assertions not demonstrated with any evidence , I agree they are hypothetically wrong and inappropriate behaviour, yet none of them demonstrate the original claim. The one which could demonstrate evidence of the original claim hasn't any evidence.

From the linked report:

Police were called last Sunday after LGBT-inclusivity campaigners and their children were pelted with eggs for tying supportive messages and rainbow ribbons on to her school gates. The following day, Hewitt-Clarkson estimates, about half the children at the school were withdrawn from lessons by parents. She believes many were intimidated by protesters who stood guard on the roads that led to the school, and says they were telling parents: “If you take your kids to school today, you’re not a Muslim and you’ll burn in hell.”

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Are they fining the parents keeping their children out of school?

[Vassenor]

So Boris is demonstrating that he's never picked up a history textbook in his life, claiming that Islam put Muslim world 'centuries behind'

I mean I knew he was a fucking moron but I didn't think it was this bad.

[The Free Joy State]

Are they fining the parents keeping their children out of school?

Who knows?

I suppose "Child Too Afraid to Go to School" could be termed as an authorised absence due to stress-related illness.

I'm not sure what "Child Absent Due to Parents Ideological Beliefs" would come under...

[Hirota]

Indeed. Except Austria BH's claim was shifting the goalposts from Salandriagado's earlier claim that I was originally challenging.

I've already seen some pro-inclusivity campaigners were pelted. I've not seen evidence of the children of pro-inclusivity campaigners being pelted with eggs - is there evidence?

As assertions not demonstrated with any evidence , I agree they are hypothetically wrong and inappropriate behaviour, yet none of them demonstrate the original claim. The one which could demonstrate evidence of the original claim hasn't any evidence.

From the linked report:

Police were called last Sunday after LGBT-inclusivity campaigners and their children were pelted with eggs for tying supportive messages and rainbow ribbons on to her school gates. The following day, Hewitt-Clarkson estimates, about half the children at the school were withdrawn from lessons by parents. She believes many were intimidated by protesters who stood guard on the roads that led to the school, and says they were telling parents: “If you take your kids to school today, you’re not a Muslim and you’ll burn in hell.”

Indeed. From a local source:

Trouble erupted at the gates of Anderton Park Primary last night when a group of mostly female LGBT activists putting up messages and banners in support of under-fire staff were confronted and some were allegedly egged.

The group of around 12 women and one man, all from the LGBT community, say they came under attack while quietly putting up banners, pom poms and heart shaped messages, including rainbow flags, on the school fence. Some were in tears after the incident.

Same date - Guardian article was published 26th May and refers to incident on the previous Sunday - Birmingham mail article was published on the 20th May and says the previous night. Both refer to the same school. Can you demonstrate the Guardian is right and the Birmingham mail is wrong?

Lets be clear, it's still a confrontation that shouldn't be happening - I understand the 13 LGBT community members belong to a group whcih tries to encourage dialogue, and if the accounts in the Birmingham mail are true they were threatened.

But still, Sal's original claim remains unproven.

[Salandriagado]

Yes. Being screamed at by agressive adults is harmful to children.

Sure. Is there evidence of that happening?

Yes.

[Salandriagado]

Except your first source doesn't say why the school was closed.

Here is the thing - the original claim was that children were being screamed at. That first source has a tweet that claims to have a message from two students that protesters were being rude, disturbing students and that students are unhappy at it. None of that is evidence of screaming as Salandriagado put it. None of that is evidence of "hurl(ing) invective and abuse at the children and staff" as Austria BH put it.

Abuse has been hurled at staff -- the headteacher. She has received messages to "watch her back".

Just ignoring everything else, this on its own pushes this way outside the bounds of reasonable protest, and into threats of violence. These fuckwits should count themselves very lucky that they aren't sitting in a cell.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Labour peers to hold a no confidence vote in Corbyn's leadership. Kind of meaningless, but not a good look for Corby.

[Mostrov]

So Boris is demonstrating that he's never picked up a history textbook in his life, claiming that Islam put Muslim world 'centuries behind'

I mean I knew he was a fucking moron but I didn't think it was this bad.

I know appreciation of irony was never your strongest point, but you do realize that quote was taken from a history book he had written?

And, besides, he makes a valid point. If historiography is divided on the effect of Christianity on, say, the Roman empire, can't we speak of Islam's effects upon its former territory? Why was it that printing press was first introduced to Egypt by Napoleon and why was it that capitalism's centre was not in the rich territories of Asia but on the periphery in Protestant Northern Europe?

Surely, with your appreciation of "history textbooks" you can name just such a book that 'proves' the opposite?

[Philjia]

So Boris is demonstrating that he's never picked up a history textbook in his life, claiming that Islam put Muslim world 'centuries behind'

I mean I knew he was a fucking moron but I didn't think it was this bad.

I know appreciation of irony was never your strongest point, but you do realize that quote was taken from a history book he had written?

And, besides, he makes a valid point. If historiography is divided on the effect of Christianity on, say, the Roman empire, can't we speak of Islam's effects upon its former territory? Why was it that printing press was first introduced to Egypt by Napoleon and why was it that capitalism's centre was not in the rich territories of Asia but on the periphery in Protestant Northern Europe?

Surely, with your appreciation of "history textbooks" you can name just such a book that 'proves' the opposite?

The islamic world was considerably more scientifically advanced than Europe during the Islamic Golden Age which lasted roughly from about the 8th century to the 14th century. (Although it didn't suddenly end, there was a long, slow decline to the present state of the middle east) There are several reasons why the islamic world began to be overtaken (and fucked over) by Europe after this point:
- The Mongols conquered the Abbasid caliphate, and sacked Baghdad, destroying the House of Wisdom in the process.
- The rennaissance ushered in a new period of increased scientific and economic advancement in Europe, and included the beginnings of significant European imperial expansion.
- The Ottoman Empire conquered significant amounts of the middle east, but entered a period of decline and internal strife from the 18th century, so was unable to keep up with the rapid industrialisation of the European powers.
- The Ottomans were defeated by the Entente powers and their Arab rebel allies during the First World War. The empire was subsequently partitioned, badly, leading to wars and civil wars becoming a recurring problem, not to mention the Entente's refusal to prevent the House of Saud conquering Arabia.

[Vassenor]

So Boris is demonstrating that he's never picked up a history textbook in his life, claiming that Islam put Muslim world 'centuries behind'

I mean I knew he was a fucking moron but I didn't think it was this bad.

I know appreciation of irony was never your strongest point, but you do realize that quote was taken from a history book he had written?

And, besides, he makes a valid point. If historiography is divided on the effect of Christianity on, say, the Roman empire, can't we speak of Islam's effects upon its former territory? Why was it that printing press was first introduced to Egypt by Napoleon and why was it that capitalism's centre was not in the rich territories of Asia but on the periphery in Protestant Northern Europe?

Surely, with your appreciation of "history textbooks" you can name just such a book that 'proves' the opposite?

Why were Muslim scholars performing eye surgery to remove cataracts in the 1100s while European scholars were still arguing whether women had souls or not?

[Hirota]

Sure. Is there evidence of that happening?

Yes.

It should be obvious that if someone is asking for it, you should provide it.

[Vassenor]

OBR predicts £30bn hit to the economy in the event of a No Deal.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Govt loses by 42 on vote to block suspension of parliament. 315 to 274. Looks like 17 Tory rebels voted against govt

[Mostrov]

The islamic world was considerably more scientifically advanced than Europe during the Islamic Golden Age which lasted roughly from about the 8th century to the 14th century.

It actually wasn't. The Arabs just so happened to conquer the most sophisticated urban societies in the world at the time, the Persians and the Greeks and happened to ride off their coat-tails.

Can you cite anything beyond the wikipedia article for the so-called Islamic Golden Age? Its an idea you have uncritically accepted—do you even know of the controversy surrounding it?—, created by those whose entire purpose was an explanation which needs the west to have stolen all its accomplishments rather than acheived anything themselves.

The actual golden age for Islamic culture was in the 14th to 16th centuries. When the Islamic societies were actually innovating by themselves.

Why were Muslim scholars performing eye surgery to remove cataracts in the 1100s while European scholars were still arguing whether women had souls or not?

You mean something Galen (a European) had been doing since the 3rd century?

All of their medicine was literally Greek or Indian.

Medieval christendom never had that debate, by the way.

Please try and be less historically illiterate.

[The New California Republic]

Govt loses by 42 on vote to block suspension of parliament. 315 to 274. Looks like 17 Tory rebels voted against govt

Looks like BoJo can't force it through like he wants. Good stuff.

[Caracasus]

So Boris is demonstrating that he's never picked up a history textbook in his life, claiming that Islam put Muslim world 'centuries behind'

I mean I knew he was a fucking moron but I didn't think it was this bad.

I know appreciation of irony was never your strongest point, but you do realize that quote was taken from a history book he had written?

And, besides, he makes a valid point. If historiography is divided on the effect of Christianity on, say, the Roman empire, can't we speak of Islam's effects upon its former territory? Why was it that printing press was first introduced to Egypt by Napoleon and why was it that capitalism's centre was not in the rich territories of Asia but on the periphery in Protestant Northern Europe?

Surely, with your appreciation of "history textbooks" you can name just such a book that 'proves' the opposite?

Only really glanced at this particular spat around Johnson's academic understanding of the Ottoman empire etc. in passing, but he made some particularly weird claim a while back about the printing press not being present in Istanbul until the 19th century (not actually true but whatever). He didn't - it turns out - take into account the myriad reasons why this reluctance to take up moveable type in some areas occurred (protectionism - manuscript writers had a fair bit of clout, the technical challenge present in printing arabic in moveable type etc. and instead lumped it in in his usual weirdly fluffy way to "evil Islam being evil and holding back science."

Now I'm not an expert, but according to actual experts there seems to be quite a considerable debate around the various reasons why Islamic nations were so reluctant to adopt the printing press. It seems that one of the primary reasons is the political power and leverage that scribes had. It appears that there was already a system of disseminating texts that worked very efficiently without moveable type.

https://www.academia.edu/37867265/_The_ ... _2015_3_32


He may have written a history book. That doesn't make him a good historian. I once wrote some pretty basic software back in the depths of time, but I'd not call myself a computer programmer.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Govt loses by 42 on vote to block suspension of parliament. 315 to 274. Looks like 17 Tory rebels voted against govt

Looks like BoJo can't force it through like he wants. Good stuff.

What is 'good' about that, exactly?

[Alyakia]

Looks like BoJo can't force it through like he wants. Good stuff.

What is 'good' about that, exactly?

in democratic systems suspending parliament to force through something parliament doesn't want is generally viewed as "dick move" because it is an intentional subversion of the normal democratic process

[Greater vakolicci haven]

What is 'good' about that, exactly?

in democratic systems suspending parliament to force through something parliament doesn't want is generally viewed as "dick move" because it is an intentional subversion of the normal democratic process

What parliament wants shouldn't really matter on this.

[Dooom35796821595]

in democratic systems suspending parliament to force through something parliament doesn't want is generally viewed as "dick move" because it is an intentional subversion of the normal democratic process

What parliament wants shouldn't really matter on this.

Parliamentary sovereignty means the PM doesn’t get to force his opinion past their democratic colleagues, Only the monarchy gets to do that, and only once or twice.

[Alyakia]

in democratic systems suspending parliament to force through something parliament doesn't want is generally viewed as "dick move" because it is an intentional subversion of the normal democratic process

What parliament wants shouldn't really matter on this.

parliament is supposed to be sovereign. and even if it wasn't it would still be dodgy. populist leader rises up and needs to override democratic oversight just this once to secure the will of the people. yeah sure go for it what could possibly go wrong? don't forget to give him the henry viii powers while you're at it.

it's really weird to watch the UK lurch progressively closer and closer to turning into a PG-13 english civil war re-enactment club

[Vassenor]

in democratic systems suspending parliament to force through something parliament doesn't want is generally viewed as "dick move" because it is an intentional subversion of the normal democratic process

What parliament wants shouldn't really matter on this.

Parliamentary Sovereignty says hi.

You know, that thing that Brexit was all about.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

in democratic systems suspending parliament to force through something parliament doesn't want is generally viewed as "dick move" because it is an intentional subversion of the normal democratic process

What parliament wants shouldn't really matter on this.

What the fuck are you talking about? Why not? They are the supreme legislator in the UK. Ofcourse their opinion matters, they can stop the whole thing.

What utterly daft reason, devoid of logic, can you have to say a democratically elected parliament should have no say?

[Hirota]

What parliament wants shouldn't really matter on this.

Parliamentary sovereignty means the PM doesn’t get to force his opinion past their democratic colleagues, Only the monarchy gets to do that, and only once or twice.

There is a whiff of double standards about all this. Pretending parliament is interested in democracy and preventing forcing his opinion, whilst forcing their opinion to ignore the largest democratic vote in UK since 1992 is hypocritical.

Bear in mind, I'd be in favour of the abolition of the Royal Prerogative that gives BoJo or any other state leader the power to suspend parliament. But let's not pretend parliament are the defenders of democracy here.