The Islamic Discussion Thread ٤: It's Always Sunni In Arabia

[Frievolk]

Islam claims the Quran is direct dictation from God. CorrectChristianity doesn’t make the same claim about the Bible.

Does it not? I think most Christians are fond of the term "divinely inspired." Are Christians claiming only partial divine inspiration, like "it's generally the word of God except the rules about gays and shrimp are made up and Jesus didn't curse a fig tree, it was a pear tree"? Sarcasm aside, what I'm asking is doesn't divinely inspired mean everything is divinely inspired? And is there really a difference between God inspiring and God dictating?

On the subject of the Qu'ran, I read about a quarter of the way through it. It's kind of a strange mix of a Beowulf style epic, an autobiography of Mohammed, and a long list of rules. One thing that I noticed was how very often "God is merciful" is repeated. Of course, I've heard some Muslims say that the Qu'ran has to be read in Arabic and that reading it in English just isn't the same, but I don't think I'd ever be able to pull of learning Arabic - I'm barely proficient in German and that took years and I still can't get the der/die/das thing right half the time.

As person who's been a Muslim for 19 years, and has extensively studied in Islamic jurisprudence and Islamic theology in general for more than 3 (thankfully, those 3 were of my non-Islamic years) in three different languages (one of which being Arabic itself), I can safely tell you that you only need to be proficient in Arabic to understand Quran just as much as you need to be proficient in Hebrew to understand The Bible. As in, none at all. The very few situations where Knowledge on Arabic would be needed can be solved with simple searching or asking.

[Frievolk]

The greatest manumition effect of Islam was never this fairy-tale of free a slave if he asks you as that was always legally and otherwise in the prerogative of the slave master

It's not a fairy-tale.

Of course it isn't. Fairy tales have basis on truth, while that is a bold-faced lie.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Eh, not British influenced. Though we generally do believe since the world is in a different state, we are to obey the governments in power today

And not Shari'ah?

[Jolthig]

Eh, not British influenced. Though we generally do believe since the world is in a different state, we are to obey the governments in power today

And not Shari'ah?

We don't deny there is guidance that Shariah had rules for how to free a slave. What we deny is that Islam intended to continue slavery.

[Herskerstad]

The greatest manumition effect of Islam was never this fairy-tale of free a slave if he asks you as that was always legally and otherwise in the prerogative of the slave master, but rather the deed that slaves that give birth from their master be freed which was not that much of a new thing even at the time. However, in institutionalise it, it did zap a good deal of the internal slave holdings and with empire it allowed the Arabs to look outwards for such a source, primarily in India and Africa, rather than inwards. While outwards trade did exist in pre-Islamic eras, Muhammad himself being a slave trader himself, started what was in all likelihood the largest slave trade in history. A far cry from phasing it out.

I have not heard of there being a Slave trade that big in either Arabia or Persia at the time. I mean slavery definitely existed in both, but I'm not sure if it was an economic concept to the extent it is in Islam as a religion. Byzantine Rome is, of course, a completely different beast to tackle.

True. Slaves were popular in Arabia but there was a significant internal slave trade there already. That would be phased out and largely replaced with an external slave trade that was much, much bigger with the onset of the caliphates. Islam generally had, and this is as true with the early caliphates as it is with the Ottoman empire, a tendency to rely on warfare for economics. Raiding, pirating, Muslims were not even supposed to be taxed beyond the zakat which was nowhere close enough to run a competitive state on it's own. Which is why you also get a greater lean on slave and dhimmi populations to fill that vacuum in the peace time.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

And not Shari'ah?

We don't deny there is guidance that Shariah had rules for how to free a slave.

I was referring to all of Shari'ah, not just the slavery.

What we deny is that Islam intended to continue slavery.

And what daleel do you have for this?

[Sahansahiye Iran]

I love watching Amin target even the guys nominally on his team. *gets popcorn*

[Frievolk]

I love watching Amin target even the guys nominally on his team. *gets popcorn*

Like every other Muslim, Amin's greatest enemy is other Muslims, who he vehemently takfirs, and then claims he didn't do that.

[Jolthig]

We don't deny there is guidance that Shariah had rules for how to free a slave.

I was referring to all of Shari'ah, not just the slavery.

What we deny is that Islam intended to continue slavery.

And what daleel do you have for this?

Well, firstly, you can check the links in my signature or muhamamd fact check by the Ahmadiyya.

Secondly, the daleel you have provided yourself. Have you read some of it that you provided? Some of it agrees with me. It's your response to Pilarcraft I believe with several passages.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

pirating

You mean like stealing and stuff?

[Jolthig]

I love watching Amin target even the guys nominally on his team. *gets popcorn*

Lol.

Amin seems confused on the subject of slavery in Islam?

[Herskerstad]

And not Shari'ah?

We don't deny there is guidance that Shariah had rules for how to free a slave. What we deny is that Islam intended to continue slavery.

That will always be kind of a hard argument to make when Muhammad himself was a slave trader.

[Frievolk]

pirating

You mean like stealing and stuff?

No he literally means pirating, as in hunting mercantile ships in open and international seas with the intention of murdering, pillaging, looting, and taking slaves. You know, the very reason Colonialism as a concept even came to be?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

I was referring to all of Shari'ah, not just the slavery.

And what daleel do you have for this?

Well, firstly, you can check the links in my signature or muhamamd fact check by the Ahmadiyya.

Secondly, the daleel you have provided yourself. Have you read some of it that you provided? Some of it agrees with me. It's your response to Pilarcraft I believe with several passages.

Yes I read, and I can see the argument. But idk if it 100% means that Al-Islam sought to phase of out, considering there's no direct command to do so.

[Herskerstad]

pirating

You mean like stealing and stuff?

Not like e-pirating nowadays. Like actual pirating. Ships landing onshore, plundering villages. That sort of stuff.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

I love watching Amin target even the guys nominally on his team. *gets popcorn*

Is asking questions a problem?

[Jolthig]

We don't deny there is guidance that Shariah had rules for how to free a slave. What we deny is that Islam intended to continue slavery.

That will always be kind of a hard argument to make when Muhammad himself was a slave trader.

Well, I never said he wasn't because as I've stated earlier (you as well), the economy of Arabia at the time didn't allow it.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

I love watching Amin target even the guys nominally on his team. *gets popcorn*

Amin seems confused on the subject of slavery in Islam?

I am now, a little bit.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

You mean like stealing and stuff?

Not like e-pirating nowadays. Like actual pirating. Ships landing onshore, plundering villages. That sort of stuff.

I know what you meant. Which early Khilafahs are you talking about?

[Jolthig]

The slave trade continued under the Rashidun Caliphate. Top officials and Muhammad himself traded slaves from the earliest sources we have on him

I never said they didn't. Again, The topic is about slavery under Islamic Law, not what Muslims did throughout history.

contrasted with this silly idea

It's not silly, it's part of Shari'ah.

that they'd just have to ask to be freed, and they'd be freed.

https://islamqa.info/en/94840:

If a person is enslaved for some reason but then it becomes apparent that he has given up his wrongdoing and forgotten his past, and he has become a man who shuns evil and seeks to do good, is it permissible to respond to his request to let him go free? Islam says yes, and there are some fuqaha’ who say that this is obligatory and some who say that it is mustahabb.

This is what is called a mukaatabah or contract of manumission between the slave and his master. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), give them such writing, if you find that there is good and honesty in them. And give them something (yourselves) out of the wealth of Allaah which He has bestowed upon you”

[al-Noor 24:33]

http://islam-wa-sunnah.com/fatwa/index. ... definition
https://www.al-islam.org/slavery-from-i ... ks-slavery:

Slaves were given a right to ransom themselves either on payment of an agreed sum or on completion of service for an agreed period. The legal term for this is mukatabah. Allah says in the Qur'an:

And those who seek a deed [of liberation] from among those [slaves] whom your right hands possess, give them the writing (kitab) if you know of goodness in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you.. (Qur'an 24:33)

The word kitab in the verse stands for the written contract between the slave and his master known as “mukatabah - deed of contract”. The significant factor in mukatabah is that when a slave desires to get into such a mutual written contract, the master should not refuse it. In the verse quoted above, God has made it incumbent upon Muslims to help the slaves in getting liberated.

When a slave wants to get himself freed, the master has not only to agree to it, but he is also directed to help the slave from his own wealth. The only provision being the satisfaction to the effect that the slave would live a respectable life after earning his freedom. Thus, about 1400 years ago Islam dealt in the most effective way a death blow to slavery.

It also directed that the slaves seeking freedom should be helped from the public treasury (baytul mal). Thus, as a last resort, the Prophet and his rightful successors were to provide ransom for the slaves out of state coffers. The Qur'an recognises the emancipation of slaves as one of the permissible expenditures of alms and charity.

http://www.islamweb.net/en/article/1174 ... of-slavery:

It was decreed that if a slave wanted to purchase his or her freedom, he or she should be helped with money and the means to maintain an independent life.

The Noble Quran commands (what means) : "Marry those among you who are single or the virtuous ones among your slaves, male or female. If they are in poverty, Allah will give them means out of His grace: for Allah encompasses all and He knows all things … And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum) give them such a deed if you know any good in them. Yea give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids into prostitution when they desire chastity in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them yet after such compulsion is Allah Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them)." [Quran 24:32-33]

Abdullah Yousuf Ali's commentary on the following verses runs as follows: “A slave, male or female could ask for conditional freedom by a written deed fixing the amount required for emancipation, and allowing the slave meanwhile to earn money by lawful means and perhaps marry and bring up a family. Such a deed was not to be refused if the request was genuine and the slave had character. Not only that, but the master is directed to help with money out of his own resources in order to enable the slave to earn his or her own liberty."

Amin, one of the quotes you provided, literally agrees with me:

Slaves were given a right to ransom themselves either on payment of an agreed sum or on completion of service for an agreed period. The legal term for this is mukatabah. Allah says in the Qur'an:

And those who seek a deed [of liberation] from among those [slaves] whom your right hands possess, give them the writing (kitab) if you know of goodness in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you.. (Qur'an 24:33)

The word kitab in the verse stands for the written contract between the slave and his master known as “mukatabah - deed of contract”. The significant factor in mukatabah is that when a slave desires to get into such a mutual written contract, the master should not refuse it. In the verse quoted above, God has made it incumbent upon Muslims to help the slaves in getting liberated.

When a slave wants to get himself freed, the master has not only to agree to it, but he is also directed to help the slave from his own wealth. The only provision being the satisfaction to the effect that the slave would live a respectable life after earning his freedom. Thus, about 1400 years ago Islam dealt in the most effective way a death blow to slavery.

It also directed that the slaves seeking freedom should be helped from the public treasury (baytul mal). Thus, as a last resort, the Prophet and his rightful successors were to provide ransom for the slaves out of state coffers. The Qur'an recognises the emancipation of slaves as one of the permissible expenditures of alms and charity.

[Frievolk]

Not like e-pirating nowadays. Like actual pirating. Ships landing onshore, plundering villages. That sort of stuff.

I know what you meant. Which early Khilafahs are you talking about?

All of them?
Muhammad's own Caliphate had a fuckload of campaigns of piracy in the the Red Sea (the only body of water he had access to) while taking slaves from Habasha (Ethiopia) and other regional governments.
The Rashidun Caliphate and virtually every other one after (up to the Ottoman Empire) also hunted in the Mediterranean, which was primarily why Colonialism happened.

[Jolthig]

Well, firstly, you can check the links in my signature or muhamamd fact check by the Ahmadiyya.

Secondly, the daleel you have provided yourself. Have you read some of it that you provided? Some of it agrees with me. It's your response to Pilarcraft I believe with several passages.

Yes I read, and I can see the argument. But idk if it 100% means that Al-Islam sought to phase of out, considering there's no direct command to do so.

One of your links is clear it said so.

And yeah, I never said Islam ever intended to abolish slavery in Arabia with the stroke of a pen in Muhammads lifetime.

[Jolthig]

I know what you meant. Which early Khilafahs are you talking about?

All of them?
Muhammad's own Caliphate had a fuckload of campaigns of piracy in the the Red Sea (the only body of water he had access to) while taking slaves from Habasha (Ethiopia) and other regional governments.
The Rashidun Caliphate and virtually every other one after (up to the Ottoman Empire) also hunted in the Mediterranean, which was primarily why Colonialism happened.

I've never known them to do that? Source?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

I never said they didn't. Again, The topic is about slavery under Islamic Law, not what Muslims did throughout history.

It's not silly, it's part of Shari'ah.

https://islamqa.info/en/94840:

http://islam-wa-sunnah.com/fatwa/index. ... definition
https://www.al-islam.org/slavery-from-i ... ks-slavery:

http://www.islamweb.net/en/article/1174 ... of-slavery:

Amin, one of the quotes you provided, literally agrees with me:

Slaves were given a right to ransom themselves either on payment of an agreed sum or on completion of service for an agreed period. The legal term for this is mukatabah. Allah says in the Qur'an:

And those who seek a deed [of liberation] from among those [slaves] whom your right hands possess, give them the writing (kitab) if you know of goodness in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you.. (Qur'an 24:33)

The word kitab in the verse stands for the written contract between the slave and his master known as “mukatabah - deed of contract”. The significant factor in mukatabah is that when a slave desires to get into such a mutual written contract, the master should not refuse it. In the verse quoted above, God has made it incumbent upon Muslims to help the slaves in getting liberated.

When a slave wants to get himself freed, the master has not only to agree to it, but he is also directed to help the slave from his own wealth. The only provision being the satisfaction to the effect that the slave would live a respectable life after earning his freedom. Thus, about 1400 years ago Islam dealt in the most effective way a death blow to slavery.

It also directed that the slaves seeking freedom should be helped from the public treasury (baytul mal). Thus, as a last resort, the Prophet and his rightful successors were to provide ransom for the slaves out of state coffers. The Qur'an recognises the emancipation of slaves as one of the permissible expenditures of alms and charity.

1: I already said "I know"
2: The only sentence that you 'highlighted' (saying "bolded and underlined" is too much to type lol) that agrees with you claim is the last sentence.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Yes I read, and I can see the argument. But idk if it 100% means that Al-Islam sought to phase of out, considering there's no direct command to do so.

One of your links is clear it said so.

And yeah, I never said Islam ever intended to abolish slavery in Arabia with the stroke of a pen in Muhammads lifetime.

I know.