NationStates

Posted: **Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:22 pm**

New Tsavon wrote:However, I see no problem with legally carrying a handgun.

You don't see any problem with it, despite the OP recounting an instance of the gun being accessed by someone other the owner?

Posted: **Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:23 pm**

This is horrible, but look on the bright side: at least he wasn't exposed to the trauma of having to watch somebody else shoot his mother.

Posted: **Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:24 pm**

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Tubbsalot wrote:It would also make it utterly pointless to carry a weapon in the first place. There would be no situation where it was useful (as though there were many reasonable applications for a concealed weapon in the first place).

No it would not.

If you're in a situation where you would be unable to cock the handgun when you need it, you probably won't have the time to draw it in the first place.

Okay. Please describe a plausible scenario in which an unloaded, uncocked handgun would be a useful tool in self-defence.

Posted: **Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:24 pm**

Merizoc wrote:Firstly my thoughts and condolences go out to this woman's family and friends. It seems like accidental gun deaths are in the news a lot lately. What's the answer to these killings? Up to 100 children die each year in the US from accidental shootings, and thats still not counting adults. So how do we combat this? Regular gun control? Or specific laws targeting guns in households with children? I'd prefer to see restrictions on firearms in houses with children, but we've also got to educate people about the dangers of these weapons. This woman clearly wasn't carrying the gun in a safe spot. Can we make sure that people know how to properly and safely carry and store firearms?

How do we combat this?

We don't, There are already so many restrictions on firearms as is without stomping all over the very rights given to us by the constitution. But I digress, What would you consider to be a safe spot for a firearm?

And I also make my case and point in this video

Posted: **Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:25 pm**

Tubbsalot wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:No it would not.

If you're in a situation where you would be unable to cock the handgun when you need it, you probably won't have the time to draw it in the first place.

Okay. Please describe a plausible scenario in which an unloaded, uncocked handgun would be a useful tool in self-defence.

I never said unloaded.

Posted: **Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:25 pm**

Tubbsalot wrote:
New Tsavon wrote:The whole tragedy could've been prevented if the mother had left the safety on before putting it in her bag.

How do you know she didn't?

The article in the OP says he grabbed the weapon from the purse and discharged it.

That indicates that the weapon's safety was not engaged.

Tubbsalot wrote:(as though there were many reasonable applications for a concealed weapon in the first place).

Is self-defense not a "reasonable application"?

Posted: **Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:26 pm**

Tubbsalot wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:No it would not.

If you're in a situation where you would be unable to cock the handgun when you need it, you probably won't have the time to draw it in the first place.

Okay. Please describe a plausible scenario in which an unloaded, uncocked handgun would be a useful tool in self-defence.

Scaring people away? Isn't that what gun advocates say they're the best for?

Posted: **Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:27 pm**

New Tsavon wrote:
Fortschritte wrote:Can we not make this political, out of respect for the victim? Please, show some courtesy, NSG.

Agreed.

The whole tragedy could've been prevented if the mother had left the safety on before putting it in her bag.

not always true. safeties do occasionally fail, although leaving the safety on certainly would have help

Posted: **Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:28 pm**

Imperializt Russia wrote:
WestRedMaple wrote:

Safe carry can certainly involve it being loaded and ready to fire....that's the best way to have it for self-defense. The problem occured when the two-year-old was allowed access to it.

Allowed is a strong word.

I'm sure many concealed carry shooters would tell you it is better to carry your weapon not cocked. It would be far safer.

Supposedly, a 1911 can be safely carried in condition 1 (cocked and locked), because of the grip safety. If that's true, the Springfield XD series (which also has a grip safety) should also be capable of being safely carried in condition 1.

Posted: **Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:28 pm**

Mavorpen wrote:
Ayreonia wrote:Maybe she was afraid the groceries would assault her.

You mean that doesn't happen regularly?

Damn it, and here I've been walking into grocery stores dressed in full body armor.

I was shocked to find that out, myself. Those beans are always a bit too brown for my liking, and I'm convinced the taco sauce packs heat.

Posted: **Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:30 pm**

Ayreonia wrote:
Mavorpen wrote:You mean that doesn't happen regularly?

Damn it, and here I've been walking into grocery stores dressed in full body armor.

I was shocked to find that out, myself. Those beans are always a bit too brown for my liking, and I'm convinced the taco sauce packs heat.

You ever notice those bananas look sorta like guns?

Coincidence? I think not.

Posted: **Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:30 pm**

Luziyca wrote:It could've been avoided if gun control laws were implemented....

Nothing short of a total ban would have prevented this, and even then that would not be guaranteed 100%.

New Tsavon wrote:
Fortschritte wrote:Can we not make this political, out of respect for the victim? Please, show some courtesy, NSG.

Agreed.

The whole tragedy could've been prevented if the mother had left the safety on before putting it in her bag.

Not all guns are designed with external safetys to be "left on".

Caribica wrote:
New Tsavon wrote:Agreed.

The whole tragedy could've been prevented if the mother had left the safety on before putting it in her bag.

Right, teach common gun sense instead of banning them in the name of safety.

Like we used to in school.

Shilya wrote:
Gun Manufacturers wrote:
WTF is a shooter's license? Do you mean a carry permit?

Something that isn't a thing (at least not in the US), but should be. Want to buy guns? Go pass a test on gun handling and safety.

Runs directly afoul the Second Amendment.

New Rhodinia wrote:Just ran into the "Gunman kills three" issue and went with door 1: restrict firearms to law enforcement and the military. I'm not doubting an average person's ability to use a gun properly and use it as people want it to be used, but guns only have one purpose: to kill. And in a world where firearns are more accessible and effective then what the second amendment thought was considered a "firearm", you can't help but get a little worried.

A majority of gun owners can and do use guns properly, and not all guns have the sole purpose to kill. Even defensive guns are design just to stop an attack. Any resulting death of an attacker is merely collateral damage.

Posted: **Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:32 pm**

Tubbsalot wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:No it would not.

If you're in a situation where you would be unable to cock the handgun when you need it, you probably won't have the time to draw it in the first place.

Okay. Please describe a plausible scenario in which an unloaded, uncocked handgun would be a useful tool in self-defence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fobvYJVXqBQ

Posted: **Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:32 pm**

Tubbsalot wrote:
New Tsavon wrote:However, I see no problem with legally carrying a handgun.

You don't see any problem with it, despite the OP recounting an instance of the gun being accessed by someone other the owner?

Your point being?

The instance OP linked was a result of negligence on the part of the owner.

Posted: **Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:32 pm**

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Merizoc wrote:Firstly my thoughts and condolences go out to this woman's family and friends. It seems like accidental gun deaths are in the news a lot lately. What's the answer to these killings? Up to 100 children die each year in the US from accidental shootings, and thats still not counting adults. So how do we combat this? Regular gun control? Or specific laws targeting guns in households with children? I'd prefer to see restrictions on firearms in houses with children, but we've also got to educate people about the dangers of these weapons. This woman clearly wasn't carrying the gun in a safe spot. Can we make sure that people know how to properly and safely carry and store firearms?

Proper and safe carry and storage would probably have involved not having the weapon loaded, cocked and ready to fire. That's begging for a disaster. Even if the weapon was a revolver, it could surely have been left uncocked - I don't know if this is true of modern revolvers, but perhaps not fully loading the cylinder and resting the hammer on this empty chamber would prevent an accidental discharge.

This is an issue of education. This weapon was not safely being carried.
Also, how did the toddler get to it? Did it reach into her purse while being also carried by the mother? Did the mother leave her bag (with her loaded, cocked, ready to fire handgun) momentarily, and the baby with it? This is a shocking level of complacency.

Modern revolvers are designed to be carried with a fully loaded cylinder (but not cocked) and use a safety bar transfer to prevent accidental discharges.

Posted: **Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:32 pm**

Imperializt Russia wrote:
WestRedMaple wrote:

Safe carry can certainly involve it being loaded and ready to fire....that's the best way to have it for self-defense. The problem occured when the two-year-old was allowed access to it.

Allowed is a strong word.

I'm sure many concealed carry shooters would tell you it is better to carry your weapon not cocked. It would be far safer.

Many cannot be both not cocked AND ready to fire. Having to draw and then rack could severely hamper your ability to defend yourself in a situation where fractions of a second can mean your life.

Posted: **Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:32 pm**

New Tsavon wrote:The article in the OP says he grabbed the weapon from the purse and discharged it.

That indicates that the weapon's safety was not engaged.

Or perhaps he grabbed it from the purse and fiddled with it for five seconds before it discharged. Given that the primary witness would have been the toddler, his testimony is probably not super reliable, even assuming he was grilled by the police on the exact way in which he killed his mum immediately after it happened.

New Tsavon wrote:
Tubbsalot wrote:(as though there were many reasonable applications for a concealed weapon in the first place).

Is self-defense not a "reasonable application"?

No. Depending on the situation, either you can't draw the weapon, or you could use a non-lethal weapon instead. There's no scenario in which a concealed firearm is a good option for self-defence.

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Tubbsalot wrote:Okay. Please describe a plausible scenario in which an unloaded, uncocked handgun would be a useful tool in self-defence.

I never said unloaded.

Oops, my bad. Even so, describe a situation where it would be useful if the gun isn't in your hand and ready to fire.

Ayreonia wrote:
Tubbsalot wrote:Okay. Please describe a plausible scenario in which an unloaded, uncocked handgun would be a useful tool in self-defence.

Scaring people away? Isn't that what gun advocates say they're the best for?

I'd think you'd be more likely to scare someone into killing you, unless they weren't armed, in which case you don't need a gun.

Posted: **Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:37 pm**

Big Jim P wrote:
New Tsavon wrote:Agreed.

The whole tragedy could've been prevented if the mother had left the safety on before putting it in her bag.

Not all guns are designed with external safetys to be "left on".

Perhaps, but most firearms on the civilian market have some form of safety.

Posted: **Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:38 pm**

……………………………………

Ay dios mio, that's terrible. Poor kid. At least he's young, won't remember it. But shit, that sucks.

And gun control isn't the answer, like Jim said. Only a 100% ban could work, and that would never be enacted. But maybe if she hadn't had the gun in a place where a toddler could ever reach it, this wouldn't happen.

Posted: **Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:39 pm**

Tubbsalot wrote:
New Tsavon wrote:Is self-defense not a "reasonable application"?

No. Depending on the situation, either you can't draw the weapon, or you could use a non-lethal weapon instead. There's no scenario in which a concealed firearm is a good option for self-defence.

There are plenty of examples of successful self defense that prove this wrong.

Posted: **Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:40 pm**

Big Jim P wrote:
Tubbsalot wrote:
No. Depending on the situation, either you can't draw the weapon, or you could use a non-lethal weapon instead. There's no scenario in which a concealed firearm is a good option for self-defence.

There are plenty of examples of successful self defense that prove this wrong.

Ok, well, how about describing that situation like I asked for multiple times in the post you quoted. Preferably the sort of situation which could happen on a regular basis.

Posted: **Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:41 pm**

New Tsavon wrote:
Big Jim P wrote:
Not all guns are designed with external safetys to be "left on".

Perhaps, but most firearms on the civilian market have some form of safety.

True, but not external safeties. Revolvers don't have them, nor do Glocks (on of the most popular handguns on the market).

Posted: **Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:42 pm**

Tubbsalot wrote:
Big Jim P wrote:There are plenty of examples of successful self defense that prove this wrong.

Ok, well, how about describing that situation like I asked for multiple times in the post you quoted. Preferably the sort of situation which could happen on a regular basis.

An attack or attempted robbery from someone with a melee weapon (knife, bat or similar).

Posted: **Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:43 pm**

Tubbsalot wrote:
Big Jim P wrote:There are plenty of examples of successful self defense that prove this wrong.

Ok, well, how about describing that situation like I asked for multiple times in the post you quoted. Preferably the sort of situation which could happen on a regular basis.

Describe it? there are plenty of examples of it already. Why do I need to describe a scenario that has already happened?

Posted: **Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:44 pm**

Wow, I live in Coeur d'Alene.. first time it's been in the news :blink:

But it's not so positive

NationStates

Toddler Shoots and Kills Mother