Anti-Socialism Thread

[Cisairse]

"Socialism is when things happen that I don't like." —this thread basically

[Duvniask]

"Socialism is when things happen that I don't like." —this thread basically

Socialism is when my mom tells me to go outside and be social with other people.

Bottom text.

[The Marlborough]

Barring an external emergency situation such as the current Covid crisis, these stand as just claims so far.

Or, in any case, what economic model would you propose instead?

A neo-distributist one. Most economic activity would be through SME's (preferably family owned), worker cooperatives, and mutual associations. It would follow a lot of the tenets of Catholic social teaching along with inspirations from Christian socialism. It would follow the ideal of subsidiary and even in cases when large enterprises are needed, it could be seen if it could be done by a federation of coops and SME's instead of a distinct, single corporate entity. Reestablish guilds. Building societies, credit unions, and mutual banks would be preferred over private bank. Usury at the least would be heavily curtailed.

[Vivolkha]

Nope, plenty of production is stopped that is actually needed, and even efficient factories are forced to close, so neither of those reasons holds water. Or some production is never started at all because no money or not profitable, even though said things could benefit society.


Could use them for things that society needs, or retool them to make stuff that society does need. Shocking ideas I know.

That's why I support a mixed economy. Capitalism is good at distributing some services, but others where it is pretty terrible. Some utilities and services should be state owned.

That is the general consensus among most countries in the world. I wouldn't support 100% laissez-faire capitalism with zero government role either.

[US-SSR]

Capitalism has failed in every nation where it has been tried. It leads inevitably to massive economic inequality, insecurity and instability. I'm ready to try something different.

[The Reformed American Republic]

Capitalism has failed in every nation where it has been tried. It leads inevitably to massive economic inequality, insecurity and instability. I'm ready to try something different.

And that's why it should be strictly regulated by the visible hand aka the state. I don't agree with complete abolition, but government should stamp out the abuses associated with it.

[Glorious Hong Kong]

Welcome all!

(Image)

This thread is dedicated to advancing and providing a space for anti-socialist, anti-communist, and anti-Marxist discussion. Anti-socialism is opposition to socialism, but first it's important to understand what socialism is and isn't. In the broadest of terms, socialism (in theory) is an economic and social model that advocates for collective ownership of the "means of production" (basically things that make things). Most often, this "collective ownership" is really just state ownership with the veneer of popular ownership tacked on.

Socialism is opposed to capitalism, whose proponents believe that the means of production should be owned by individuals. Capitalists believe that, by voting with their money, individuals should decide what goods are produced in the free market. In this way firms that are the most efficient, cost-effective and practical for the consumer will rise to the top. Capitalism has coexisted with freedom and liberal democracy since its inception, and greater social/political freedom is exoribly tied to greater economic freedom. Socialists believe that production should be determined by the state, usually through economic planning. The core objective of socialism is the abolition of private property.

It's important to remember that socialism is not universal healthcare, public roads, free public education, taxes, unions, or "the government doing stuff." These are social policies, not socialist policies, and they are all perfectly compatible with capitalism.

Communism is the ultimate objective of socialism, which (again, in theory) is a movement whose ultimate objective is the creation of a classless, cashless worker-run society. It bears mentioning that, despite many regimes attempts to create such a society, a communist society has never truly existed and never will, as the ideas of communism are fundamentally impractical. Socialism is the vector through which communism is supposedly to be brought about.

There are different gradations of socialism. More standard fare revolutionary socialists believe that capitalism can only be overthrown by a popular revolution. Socialists of this stripe resort to authoritarian and illiberal actions to fulfill their goals. "Democratic" socialists believe that socialism may be brought about by democratic processes, particularly by electoral democracy. It's important to note that democratic socialists and revolutionary socialists do not differ in their ends. They both seek to establish a socialist society. They only differ in that they have different means to that end.

Of course, it's important to remember that there really is no such thing as "democratic" socialism, because the tenants of socialism are fundamentally anti-democratic. Democracy only exists as long as it respects individual liberty. You cannot strip people of their right to property and still call yourself a democracy. This is of course not to mention that all socialist regimes have been authoritarian hellholes whose economic plans have wreaked incalculable havoc upon the world and resulted in millions of people's needless deaths. Socialism is just an excuse for authoritarianism that has never nor will ever accomplish the goals it sets for itself.

---

So, anti-socialists of NationStates, here are a few questions:

1. Does socialism still present a threat to the world? To your country?
2. Should liberals and conservatives do more to square their differences and rally against socialist tides, wherever they may spring up?
3. At what point is armed resistance against socialism called for?

1. Yes, but I prefer the term communism to socialism. Socialism has a slightly more moderate connotation to me.

2. Absolutely. Communism is by far the biggest threat to liberal democracy in the United States, Hong Kong, and many countries around the world. Only Islamism rivals it in influence. Communism, Islamism, and fascism must all be defeated. Donald Trump is our best hope yet for overcoming these pernicious, illiberal, and anti-democratic ideas. Four More Years.

3. Armed revolution is justified when the communists have completely taken over the government and have begun to abolish and erode liberal, democratic institutions and basic freedoms, i.e. the Hong Kong National Security Law. Resistance against authoritarianism and tyranny irrespective of ideology is absolutely justified. Armed resistance is justified in self-defense when you have roving bands of Red Guards or BLM/Antifa rioters ravaging and burning down cars, businesses, and homes at the behest and the incitement of crypto-Marxist, accelerationist activists who pretend to be "progressive", "anti-racist", and all of that insane, woke, identitarian drivel. Kyle Rittenhouse is a national hero even if he may have been a bit dumb and reckless.

As diametrically opposed as communism and fascism may be on paper, they are functionally identical in practice. Communist and fascist regimes adopt many of the same methods of political repression. Communism must be treated in exactly the same way as white supremacy and its advocates must be consigned to the fringes of polite society and roundly denounced as dangerous extremists. Unfortunately, this isn't the case. This is why I wrote a nine-page-long dispatch titled The Case Against Communism (link in my sig) and didn't write one titled The Case Against Fascism. Expect its apologists to crawl out of the woodworks and excuse the inexcusable.

I would also add that while true capitalism is incompatible with communism, elements of capitalism may be adopted by a communist regime as a kind of "transitional phase" on the road to "pure communism". Socialism with Chinese characteristics is a perfect example of this. Ironically, communism is the worst form of dog-eat-dog, cutthroat capitalism in existence where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Contrary to the myth of workers seizing the means of production, the working-class has absolutely no say and any attempt at redress is met with brutal political persecution including arbitrary detention, "re-education", disappearances, torture, and organ harvesting. Cronyism is also the norm with handouts and goodies going out to those who are steadfastly loyal to the communist party. Neoliberals have allowed themselves to be co-opted into doing business with the CCP.

Similarly, CNN, Facebook, Twitter, Google, and other influential multinational corporations have been cowed into paying lip service to the woke, identitarian Marxist mob, as have many so-called "moderate" Democrat politicians such as Joe Biden, the exceedingly corrupt, morally bankrupt, neoliberal center's last hurrah before the Democrat Party is completely overrun by identitarian, intersectional crypto-Marxists who seek to implement a discriminatory system of free handouts and preferential treatment for blacks, Hispanics, and women, at the expense of whites, Jews, Asians, and men. Celebrities have similarly been cowed or indoctrinated. Everything celebrities, politicians, and companies do and say comes across as phony, insincere, virtue-signaling.

As a liberal, I apologize for their cowardice. We liberals can and must do better to stand up to communism without necessarily abandoning social liberal ideas such as universal healthcare, free public education, or an extensive social safety net for the have-nots. We are going to have to hold our noses and back Donald Trump.

We liberals have also allowed ourselves to be fooled into thinking certain, identitarian Marxist ideas such as critical race theory are in any way "liberal" and progressive. Equality and justice are merely smokescreens and doublespeak through which communists aim to seize power at all costs. Gaslighting and lying repeatedly to further their agenda, i.e. taqiyya, are the name of the game. Other methods include instigating riots, looting, arson, and terrorism similar to the leftist, CCP-backed riots and bombings that rocked Hong Kong in 1967 in a thankfully failed bid to seize control of the then-British colony there. Nothing is above these communists. Nothing.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

I can just quote myself from the past:

Using dictionaries to understand complex political beliefs is incredibly reductive, and a hallmark of someone who knows far too little. You're essentially restricting yourself to a base level of layman's ignorance and it actively harms the discussion you're trying to have.

oh i remeber that. but isn't socialism when the government grows wheat and the more wheat it grows, the more socialist it is?

[Pepsi Co]

I say we should replace the government with corporations, abolish the minimum wage, ban those socialist run charities and soup kitchens, and exile every registered democrat and the unemployed to internment camps in New Mexico to die of heat stroke. With all the pinkos and their ideology dead we'll enter a capitalist golden age!

*** Warned for trolling ***

I was just trying to contribute to the discussion against the red menace with my own ideas.

[Nevertopia]

I think the most damning thing about socialism is that a social capitalist democracy model does everything it wants to do but better.

[Picairn]

I think the most damning thing about socialism is that a social capitalist democracy model does everything it wants to do but better.

Ever since Bismarck stole the idea of a welfare state ffom socialism, it has never fully recovered.

[Vozh]

carrying water for the capitalists who want to destroy you is kind of cringe bro, ngl. like, anti-communism is the biggest meme ideology there is.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

Hold on, you say fascism needs to be destroyed but you're a third positionist?

You make it sound like these are contradictory viewpoints. They are not.

You say that yet third positionism is very heavily associated with neo-fascism since it was pretty much formed by fascists after World War 2 after it became no bueno to be openly fascist after that point.

[Ancapstands]

Someone call the based department, this forum is based as hell.

[Empirical Switzerland]

Capitalism has failed in every nation where it has been tried. It leads inevitably to massive economic inequality, insecurity and instability. I'm ready to try something different.

Communism has failed in every nation it has been tried, it results in dictatorship, political oppression, practically slavery to the state, severe poverty, genocide, and terrible civil rights.

[Honeydewistania]

Capitalism has failed in every nation where it has been tried. It leads inevitably to massive economic inequality, insecurity and instability. I'm ready to try something different.

Communism has failed in every nation it has been tried, it results in dictatorship, political oppression, practically slavery to the state, severe poverty, genocide, and terrible civil rights.

Severe poverty, genocide, terrible civil rights...

Are you sure you’re not talking about the United States of America?

[Kyundao]

Communism has failed in every nation it has been tried, it results in dictatorship, political oppression, practically slavery to the state, severe poverty, genocide, and terrible civil rights.

Severe poverty, genocide, terrible civil rights...

Are you sure you’re not talking about the United States of America?

We have quite a few examples of Communist countries doing those kinds of things. Stalin-era USSR, Mainland China, Cambodia especially.

Don't get me wrong, the US did its fair share of such behavior and this is coming from an American right-winger.

[Honeydewistania]

Severe poverty, genocide, terrible civil rights...

Are you sure you’re not talking about the United States of America?

We have quite a few examples of Communist countries doing those kinds of things. Stalin-era USSR, Mainland China, Cambodia especially.

Don't get me wrong, the US did its fair share of such behavior and this is coming from an American right-winger.

Cambodia definitely, but China right now isn’t exactly ‘communist’ or even ‘socialist’

[Kowani]

I think the most damning thing about socialism is that a social capitalist democracy model does everything it wants to do but better.

Yeah this is nowhere near true.

[Dominioan]

We have quite a few examples of Communist countries doing those kinds of things. Stalin-era USSR, Mainland China, Cambodia especially.

Don't get me wrong, the US did its fair share of such behavior and this is coming from an American right-winger.

Cambodia definitely, but China right now isn’t exactly ‘communist’ or even ‘socialist’

Under Mao it certainly was.

[Kyundao]

Cambodia definitely, but China right now isn’t exactly ‘communist’ or even ‘socialist’

Pinochet did introduce neoliberal economics to mainland China so you're not entirely wrong. I'd say they're a mixed economy since they still have some socialist elements.

[Picairn]

Yeah this is nowhere near true.

It is. People want to live happier, healthier lives without having to go through Marxist revolutions that could disrupt their normal ones.

In short, they like to enjoy the benefits without sacrificing too much. Social democracy does that, and now it's hailed and praised everywhere, while Marxist revolutions are nowhere to come.

[Honeydewistania]

I think the most damning thing about socialism is that a social capitalist democracy model does everything it wants to do but better.

Hilarious.

[Kyundao]

Yeah this is nowhere near true.

It is. People want to live happier, healthier lives without having to go through Marxist revolutions that could disrupt their normal ones.

In short, they like to enjoy the benefits without sacrificing too much. Social democracy does that, and now it's hailed and praised everywhere, while Marxist revolutions are nowhere to come.

I'm honestly really skeptical of social democracy in practice. It basically ruined California, which is pretty close to where I live.

[Dominioan]

It is. People want to live happier, healthier lives without having to go through Marxist revolutions that could disrupt their normal ones.

In short, they like to enjoy the benefits without sacrificing too much. Social democracy does that, and now it's hailed and praised everywhere, while Marxist revolutions are nowhere to come.

I'm honestly really skeptical of social democracy in practice. It basically ruined California, which is pretty close to where I live.

It's used quite well in Scandinavian countries though.