Would you vote for independence?

[Bienenhalde]

Given Britain's current pathetic state, and the fact that the U.S is fine...

I think I'll go with independence

What the heck are you even talking about? I would take the strong and stable leadership of the Queen Elizabeth and Theresa May over Trump's fudged up rubbish any day.

[Valrifell]

Given Britain's current pathetic state, and the fact that the U.S is fine...

I think I'll go with independence

What the heck are you even talking about? I would take the strong and stable leadership of the Queen Elizabeth and Theresa May over Trump's fudged up rubbish any day.

The American Revolution not happening would fuck so much shit up that May and the Queen probably wouldn't have even been born.

[Tobleste]

In practice, I imagine the only difference for America would be the correct use of vowels and a more successful football team.

If we would have stayed with Britain, we would be "enjoying" Europe's lack of free speech and lack of cultural identity. I think I like the current timeline the way it is.

Wrt free speech, Europe is no different. Wrt cultural identity, America is currently divided into 2 camps that despise each other. I think you don't understand your own timeline.

[Sarzonia]

If I had the opportunity to be able to provide warnings to the framers of the Constitution, I would definitely warn them about Citizens United and modern weaponry so that they could do things like specify that the Second Amendment only pertains to organised militia and prevent the idea that mega corporations could steal elections with dollars.

[Firaxin]

If I had the opportunity to be able to provide warnings to the framers of the Constitution, I would definitely warn them about Citizens United and modern weaponry so that they could do things like specify that the Second Amendment only pertains to organised militia and prevent the idea that mega corporations could steal elections with dollars.

And make sure that multiple parties are allowed, right?

[Washington Resistance Army]

If I had the opportunity to be able to provide warnings to the framers of the Constitution, I would definitely warn them about Citizens United and modern weaponry so that they could do things like specify that the Second Amendment only pertains to organised militia and prevent the idea that mega corporations could steal elections with dollars.

The Second Amendment wasn't meant to only apply to organized militias though. Like, we can read the Federalist Papers and see that.

Likewise Citizens United was very much the right choice constitutionally speaking.

[The Serbian Empire]

I would have been against independence with my knowledge of today.

If we would have stayed with Britain, we would be "enjoying" Europe's lack of free speech and lack of cultural identity. I think I like the current timeline the way it is.

Wrt free speech, Europe is no different. Wrt cultural identity, America is currently divided into 2 camps that despise each other. I think you don't understand your own timeline.

Richard Spencer would be doing hard time in Europe for his promotion of Neo-Nazism. There's a reason he's not allowed in the Schengen Zone or UK.

[Nucego]

I would say nothing, start gunsmithing and arm all sides of all the wars that follow. Since the triumphant party of wars is Death, why not be Death yourself?

[Thermodolia]

Given Britain's current pathetic state, and the fact that the U.S is fine...

I think I'll go with independence

What the heck are you even talking about? I would take the strong and stable leadership of the Queen Elizabeth and Theresa May over Trump's fudged up rubbish any day.

Hahahah. May ain’t strong and stable

[Nucego]

Given Britain's current pathetic state, and the fact that the U.S is fine...

I think I'll go with independence

What the heck are you even talking about? I would take the strong and stable leadership of the Queen Elizabeth and Theresa May over Trump's fudged up rubbish any day.

Two people with equally reactionary opinions on the matter competing with one another?

Is it my birthday or what?

[Tahar Joblis]

I'm not sure, at the end of the day, what the alternative looks like if the vote goes the other way.

Let's take it slowly.

In 1776, the thirteen colonies as a collective vote against independence. There's already an armed revolt underway. Let's suppose that the colonists vote to send another olive branch petition to King George III, Lord Dartmouth actually presents it to the king, the king has a sane day decides it's a good idea, and George Washington surrenders the Continental Army.

There is no natural experiment of trade with a politically independent America to show up the mercantilists and bring Adam Smith's novel ideas in Wealth of Nations to the fore. The British continue their lead-footed work attempting to extract the mercantilist best that they can out of the rebellious colonies and quarter a bunch of troops on top of them to suppress the scattered revolts. They don't have massive wartime expenditure, but they do have a mounting long-term expense keeping order in the colonies and putting out brushfires, and governance of Canada becomes heavier-handed as a result. The colonies are less profitable than trade with the independent United States would have been.

Benjamin Franklin and other leaders either move to Paris or are hung as traitors. Many less-prominent rebels and other dissatisfied and move west into the Louisiana territory, to become nominally subjects of Charles IV, who could care less (but only if he tried very hard at caring less).

The French Revolution may or may not happen. France does not spend another seven years trying to buy Britain's military defeat via colonial proxies, and there's no fresh inspiring example of a successful anti-monarchist rebellion close at hand. Since the French are less bankrupt, they are almost certainly happy to buy back Louisiana from the Spanish as they did in the original timeline.

Now, we're on schedule for the Napoleonic Wars to happen, but Napoleon probably isn't Emperor. If the French Revolution happened at all, it happened on a different schedule with different key leaders in different key places. France and England are probably still due for another war, but the staging is very different.

The British haven't had their reputation - or overconfidence - punctured by losing the war against the colonists. Neither they nor the French have spent their treasuries dry on that war. There may have been no reason for the Germans, Italians, Spanish, Portuguese, and Dutch to all team up together in panic with the British to try to stop the French Republic and Napoleon from upending the old order of Europe - the French Revolution having likely taken a different form, if it happened at all.

So now we're ready for a second major tipping point, because having rescheduled the French Revolution, Britain and France are due for a major show-down with the alignment of the other European powers being uncertain (instead of having the scheduled "Napoleon fights everybody!" prizefight). With Britain still being the 'scary kid on the block' instead of Napoleon, most of the other major powers are probably more worried about the ascendant British (who didn't just get embarrassed by a successful colonial revolt). OTOH, Britain now fights this war able to call on the resources of these (not quite as large and prosperous) colonies on the other side of the Atlantic.

Some other things... without an anti-imperialist "new" power looking to slowly shove European colonial masters out of the picture, the New World probably remains a colonial battleground to fight proxy wars in with other European powers. Slavery is probably abolished in the South earlier (1830s) but gets replaced with a lasting apartheid system ala South Africa.

Those rebel-and-settler infused lands governed briefly by Charles IV, subsequently by Louis XVI and maybe XVII, maybe briefly by Emperor Maximilian - who knows? - probably develop a distinct identity from the eastern colonies. Mexico stays huge. If he still gets French backing and Louisiana is French, Emperor Max probably succeeds in staking his claim and keeping it, which would probably align Mexico with Austria-Hungary in an eventual global conflict...

... lots of exciting possibilities, but the entire world changes in ways that are hard to predict. The British might not decolonize so gracefully.

[Rusozak]

I mean, I would WANT independence, but I'm cowardly and afraid to fight for it...

I'd probably feign loyalty to the crown and covertly help the revolutionaries.

[Tobleste]

I would have been against independence with my knowledge of today.

Wrt free speech, Europe is no different. Wrt cultural identity, America is currently divided into 2 camps that despise each other. I think you don't understand your own timeline.

Richard Spencer would be doing hard time in Europe for his promotion of Neo-Nazism. There's a reason he's not allowed in the Schengen Zone or UK.

Possibly but there are neo Nazis in Europe. I think if America's definition of free speech is considered better because their neo Nazis are safer, I think Europe's approach is actually better.

Anyway the idea that Europe is some dictatorship seems a hard one to shift among American right wingers (though most of their minds are as easily changed as concrete in general). I once talked to someone on this site who genuinely believed the UK is as free Saudi Arabia. There's no response to that.

[Pope Joan]

In 2018 we could still stand to be more independent of Britain. They pull strings all over the globe, like a shadow empire.
Opium Wars.
Classism.
Black Hole of calcutta.
Misadventures in Crimea
Disastrous remapping of the Middle East after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.
WMD debacle
They bought up my bank and turned it into crap

[Major-Tom]

You may take our lives but you may nev....wait wrong independence movement. But, y'know, go USA.

[Nucego]

In 2018 we could still stand to be more independent of Britain. They pull strings all over the globe, like a shadow empire.
Opium Wars.
Classism.
Black Hole of calcutta.
Misadventures in Crimea
Disastrous remapping of the Middle East after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.
WMD debacle
They bought up my bank and turned it into crap

It's why I'd decide to make the most of what I can in that situation. I don't really see either the British Empire or the United States being better than the other. A warmongering slave empire vs. another at the time and a warmongering reactionary hybrid regime vs. another nowadays with most of their colonies lost to independence and liberation movements. Fortunately, might I add.

[Tobleste]

In 2018 we could still stand to be more independent of Britain. They pull strings all over the globe, like a shadow empire.
Opium Wars.
Classism.
Black Hole of calcutta.
Misadventures in Crimea
Disastrous remapping of the Middle East after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.
WMD debacle
They bought up my bank and turned it into crap

I think a few of those are more yesterday's problem. You're on your own with the bank thing as well.

[Sovaal]

Yes.

[Socialist Communist States]

Nope. God Save the King. All the way with his majesty, King George III. Crush the rebel scum! Crush all those who don't like tea! Especially the ones who find Earl Grey to taste horrible! (even though it hasn't been invented/discovered yet).

[Sovaal]

Nope. God Save the King. All the way with his majesty, King George III. Crush the rebel scum! Crush all those who don't like tea! Especially the ones who find Earl Grey to taste horrible! (even though it hasn't been invented/discovered yet).

>Damn commie
>Damn redcoat

I see the connection now.../s

[Thermodolia]

Nope. God Save the King. All the way with his majesty, King George III. Crush the rebel scum! Crush all those who don't like tea! Especially the ones who find Earl Grey to taste horrible! (even though it hasn't been invented/discovered yet).

Nah. Down with the monarchy free Scotland!!

[Sovaal]

Nope. God Save the King. All the way with his majesty, King George III. Crush the rebel scum! Crush all those who don't like tea! Especially the ones who find Earl Grey to taste horrible! (even though it hasn't been invented/discovered yet).

Nah. Down with the monarchy free Scotland!!

Eh. I’m all for toppling monarchies but I’d rather conserve the Union, be it American or British.

[Bienenhalde]

Nah. Down with the monarchy free Scotland!!

Eh. I’m all for toppling monarchies but I’d rather conserve the Union, be it American or British.

What about making Scotland and England separate Commonwealth realms, with both retaining the monarchy?

[Elwher]

Nope. God Save the King. All the way with his majesty, King George III. Crush the rebel scum! Crush all those who don't like tea! Especially the ones who find Earl Grey to taste horrible! (even though it hasn't been invented/discovered yet).

Up the Rebels! Éirinn go Brách! And Earl Grey is an abomination unto the Lord! True tea lovers much prefer Lapsang souchong.