The United States of Europe

[Iransahr]

This is the long term goal of the EU, lousy idea. Poland and France aren't the same country, the laws of the individual states should reflect this

Isn't this what federalism is all about? Different states can decide what's best for them while also being a part of the same federal government.

Federalism isn’t a preemptive solution to many issues that I and others can see in a more integrated European Union; these issues admittedly go beyond the areas of control for federal systems anyway, but they would be more aided than not by further integration.

From my perspective, one the key issues iscorporate homogenisation, which means large, often multinational companies buying out and out-competing domestic and especially local businesses, leading to the same companies appearing everywhere - this is a detriment to local character and identities, as independent entities are crucial to local economic development, identity, and employment, and domestic corporations becoming subsidiaries of larger, EU-wide or multinational corporations damages a country’s sovereignty.

Federal systems don’t safeguard the sovereignty of its constituent parts, and federal power is routinely expanded to exploit and undermine local interests and values. We can see this in the United States and Russia. Europe is neither of them, true, but this isn’t a guarantee that member-states would be safe from such expansions of power and such federal meddling; Poland, Hungary and other, more conservatively-minded states, would be essentially placing their hands on the chopping block as Brussels disagrees with them on certain issues.

A more integrated pan-European entity would also include a unified armed forces. This is more detrimental to individual European states and their own interests than it would be to maintain separate forces; it’s suspect as well for Brussels to control member-states’ forces and use them for federal interests that member-states or their nations (their indigenous people) may disagree with.

[Nitrana]

I agree with you on this. Being west Slavic, Euroskepticism is rising(due to the war in Ukraine), so I don’t think that anything good would come out of further integration.

I would argue exactly the opposite. The war in Ukraine is making a case for greater integration, with an increasingly strong voice from Slavic member-states shaping a common EU foreign policy. We aren't seeing the Slavic members telling the rest of the EU: we have our own policy regarding Russia and you'll have yours. We are hearing them say that everyone should follow their lead. We are hearing them call Germany to invest in its army and contribute more for European defense. And the strategy is working. We aren't seeing 27 different foreign policies regarding Russia and Ukraine, but a common framework for sanctions, as well as economic and military aid to Ukraine, even if with a few detractors (nominally, Hungary). We are seeing broad coalitions to send new weapons to Ukraine: the Slavic members could, in many cases, send their own weapons and later pressure the others to do the same, but they are instead sending a type of weapon when their partners also do it. Personally, I think this common position is good, it is being fruitful in results, and it's strengthening the European, and more broadly, Western, positions.

Yes, you are right about the governments being pro-western. Who isn’t pro-west is the actual people(can’t of course say that about all states, namely Poland) - several protests have been organized since the start of the war, and the Slovak government is unstable and doesn’t have a majority(snap elections will happen in September where it’ll be likely replaced by a pro-Russia one). I’d say that things are calmer in Czechia but I can’t be completely sure.

https://domov.sme.sk/g/196636/zhromazde ... bceka.html
These are photos from some of them(Slovakia), but the protesting dates as back as 2020, since the start of the pandemic
https://www.dw.com/en/czech-republic-th ... a-63591590
This one is about the Czech Republic.

[Bahrimontagn]

I agree with you on this. Being west Slavic, Euroskepticism is rising(due to the war in Ukraine), so I don’t think that anything good would come out of further integration.

I would argue exactly the opposite. The war in Ukraine is making a case for greater integration, with an increasingly strong voice from Slavic member-states shaping a common EU foreign policy. We aren't seeing the Slavic members telling the rest of the EU: we have our own policy regarding Russia and you'll have yours. We are hearing them say that everyone should follow their lead. We are hearing them call Germany to invest in its army and contribute more for European defense. And the strategy is working. We aren't seeing 27 different foreign policies regarding Russia and Ukraine, but a common framework for sanctions, as well as economic and military aid to Ukraine, even if with a few detractors (nominally, Hungary). We are seeing broad coalitions to send new weapons to Ukraine: the Slavic members could, in many cases, send their own weapons and later pressure the others to do the same, but they are instead sending a type of weapon when their partners also do it. Personally, I think this common position is good, it is being fruitful in results, and it's strengthening the European, and more broadly, Western, positions.

That is the exact problem with further European integration, aside from this issue with Russia, most of the countries have overlapping interests concerning other countries.

[Portzania]

I do think further development of the EU is a good idea, the need for joint defensive abilities comes to mind but I don't think a full on federation is feasible in the near future nor should it be the primary goal. The EU has a lot of things to iron out first before it should consider federalism and I don't think Europe is ready for it either. By all means build the stepping stones to greater European Unity and further strengthen the EU. Then if federalism turns out to be the best option it can be done far easier than if it were to be attempted too soon.

I agree with you on this. Being west Slavic, Euroskepticism is rising(due to the war in Ukraine), so I don’t think that anything good would come out of further integration.

No thanks.

Why not?

I don't trust nor want a fully integrated "European superstate"

[Durius]

I would argue exactly the opposite. The war in Ukraine is making a case for greater integration, with an increasingly strong voice from Slavic member-states shaping a common EU foreign policy. We aren't seeing the Slavic members telling the rest of the EU: we have our own policy regarding Russia and you'll have yours. We are hearing them say that everyone should follow their lead. We are hearing them call Germany to invest in its army and contribute more for European defense. And the strategy is working. We aren't seeing 27 different foreign policies regarding Russia and Ukraine, but a common framework for sanctions, as well as economic and military aid to Ukraine, even if with a few detractors (nominally, Hungary). We are seeing broad coalitions to send new weapons to Ukraine: the Slavic members could, in many cases, send their own weapons and later pressure the others to do the same, but they are instead sending a type of weapon when their partners also do it. Personally, I think this common position is good, it is being fruitful in results, and it's strengthening the European, and more broadly, Western, positions.

Yes, you are right about the governments being pro-western. Who isn’t pro-west is the actual people(can’t of course say that about all states, namely Poland) - several protests have been organized since the start of the war, and the Slovak government is unstable and doesn’t have a majority(snap elections will happen in September where it’ll be likely replaced by a pro-Russia one). I’d say that things are calmer in Czechia but I can’t be completely sure.

https://domov.sme.sk/g/196636/zhromazde ... bceka.html
These are photos from some of them(Slovakia), but the protesting dates as back as 2020, since the start of the pandemic
https://www.dw.com/en/czech-republic-th ... a-63591590
This one is about the Czech Republic.

I wouldn't take some loud protestors as indicative of the general sentiment. The Polish people support the Polish membership of the EU and they are overwhelmingly Atlanticists. Slovakia is a notable exception where a large section of the people is quite euroskeptic. Czechia just rejected Babiš in favor of a former NATO general.

There are differences between them and other nations the Western nations in Europe (as there is between Southwest, Southeast and Northern Europe), but those differences are minor, imo, when compared with the differences we commonly share with the Russia, for instance. Talking about world sphere, for me me Poland, Slovakia, and Czechia are all Western already. I take being pro-Western as meaning that they wish to remain part of that bloc, EU and/or US, rather than moving into Russian or Chinese sphere.

[Saor Alba]

Federalism will probably be necessary for Europe in the long run if it wishes to maintain any geopolitical relevance and effectively tackle any continent-wide problems. That said, as a supporter of national self-determination, I would hope that it would involve significant devolution (and tolerance of separatism within internal subdivisions) to ensure it works fine. For example, the "state" of France should be made to accept Alsatian or Breton independence if it was demanded by the people. Encouraging regionalism would be a good way to counter ultranationalism and weaken the power of big players like Germany/France too.

[Kleindeutchsland]

This idea is just about as great as a Nazi-Soviet union.

[Durius]

This idea is just about as great as a Nazi-Soviet union.

I do love how unoriginal and inconsistent eurohaters are. For them, the EU is everything from imperialist to geopolitically incompetent, from communist to a extreme capitalist, from a Chinese dependency to an American-lapdog, jumping from calling it 4th Reich to criticizing Germany for not being invested enough in European matters.

[Saor Alba]

This idea is just about as great as a Nazi-Soviet union.

I do love how unoriginal and inconsistent eurohaters are. For them, the EU is everything from imperialist to geopolitically incompetent, from communist to a extreme capitalist, from a Chinese dependency to an American-lapdog, jumping from calling it 4th Reich to criticizing Germany for not being invested enough in European matters.

Indeed. There is most definitely a good debate to be had on the feasibility of further integration and federalism, but comparing it to a "Nazi-Soviet Union" is very silly. With the exception of Hungary and maybe Poland, every EU member-state could be considered a liberal democracy. Unlike Nazi Germany and the USSR, EU member states are extensively integrated already as well. Customs union, Schengen area, you name it. Federalism would be tricky, but not undoable.

[Indecent Anime Empire]

The prompt immediately reminded me of the book 1984 in the sense that world super powers protect the people by providing a necessary evil or designated enemy. It was a just a good book and it's always on my mind. DESPITE THAT, I think while pooling potential economical power on a global front with a unified objective sounds nice it also sounds like a logistics nightmare due to the extreme differences between America's car dependency and the more noteworthy trans systems in Europe. my evidence of this would be efforts in trying to create a system or systems which Include the differences in health care, political party(Mostly extremists who couldn't even begin to imagine this threads existence), and mostly the construction of a new constitution or unified agreement of laws. (for example gun laws or workers comp)

If you think I'm being pessimistic then you would be right. I have no real right to say that it is impossible for The US of E to not be feasible but for two vast nations to put aside ALLL their differences and unite within a year would be wishful dreaming. Still to strive for this by a later deadline with open discussion and reform in concerns related to real world issues would make for a interesting future indeed.

[Picairn]

The prompt immediately reminded me of the book 1984 in the sense that world super powers protect the people by providing a necessary evil or designated enemy.

I'm concerned that "superpowers protect the people by providing a necessary evil or designated enemy" is what you learned from the book 1984.

[Portzania]

WEF hands typed this post

[Saor Alba]

WEF hands typed this post

European federalism predates the WEF by quite a bit, and its advocates are/were not all liberals.

[Khurkhogur]

This idea is just about as great as a Nazi-Soviet union.

I do love how unoriginal and inconsistent eurohaters are. For them, the EU is everything from imperialist to geopolitically incompetent, from communist to a extreme capitalist, from a Chinese dependency to an American-lapdog, jumping from calling it 4th Reich to criticizing Germany for not being invested enough in European matters.

An organization can be imperialist and geopolitically incompetent. How would you describe the US' adventurism in Iraq? It fits both labels. The same goes for the EU, which is simultaneously an imperial project and not that adept at handling its (internal or external) affairs.
The other "inconsistencies" are completely attributable to who you're talking to, so it's a hollow criticism because you're lumping a politically diverse group together. Either you're making those remarks out of ignorance of this fact or you're deliberately misleading people to score points in the debate.

WEF hands typed this post

Mediterranean raider/conqueror hands typed this post

[Durius]

I do love how unoriginal and inconsistent eurohaters are. For them, the EU is everything from imperialist to geopolitically incompetent, from communist to a extreme capitalist, from a Chinese dependency to an American-lapdog, jumping from calling it 4th Reich to criticizing Germany for not being invested enough in European matters.

An organization can be imperialist and geopolitically incompetent. How would you describe the US' adventurism in Iraq? It fits both labels. The same goes for the EU, which is simultaneously an imperial project and not that adept at handling its (internal or external) affairs.
The other "inconsistencies" are completely attributable to who you're talking to, so it's a hollow criticism because you're lumping a politically diverse group together. Either you're making those remarks out of ignorance of this fact or you're deliberately misleading people to score points in the debate.

WEF hands typed this post

Mediterranean raider/conqueror hands typed this post

It's funny that you even think that I have a necessity to score any points in a "debate" whose premise was that the idea of European Federation is as great of a Nazi-Soviet Union.

[Khurkhogur]

An organization can be imperialist and geopolitically incompetent. How would you describe the US' adventurism in Iraq? It fits both labels. The same goes for the EU, which is simultaneously an imperial project and not that adept at handling its (internal or external) affairs.
The other "inconsistencies" are completely attributable to who you're talking to, so it's a hollow criticism because you're lumping a politically diverse group together. Either you're making those remarks out of ignorance of this fact or you're deliberately misleading people to score points in the debate.

Mediterranean raider/conqueror hands typed this post

It's funny that you even think that I have a necessity to score any points in a "debate" whose premise was that the idea of European Federation is as great of a Nazi-Soviet Union.

"The debate" referring to federalism and anti-federalism at large.

[Durius]

It's funny that you even think that I have a necessity to score any points in a "debate" whose premise was that the idea of European Federation is as great of a Nazi-Soviet Union.

"The debate" referring to federalism and anti-federalism at large.

I've made several points and comments about it already. If you are interested to read and comment. Though I concede that in no post I addressed the Nazi-Soviet Union.

[Transsibiria]

Is it a good idea, is it not?

Depends on your definition of good.

Are there unforeseen consequences?

Fascism and unrepentant racial Supremacism.

Could this usher in a new age for humanity?

No, it would be just one part of the world transforming into a super state.

How would even it work?

Structurally like the Soviet Union, ideologically it would result in fascism.

[Indecent Anime Empire]

The prompt immediately reminded me of the book 1984 in the sense that world super powers protect the people by providing a necessary evil or designated enemy.

I'm concerned that "superpowers protect the people by providing a necessary evil or designated enemy" is what you learned from the book 1984.

Given I used "in the sense" I was prompting a portion of the narrative and not the whole. Thank you for doubting my lack of comprehension skills. In this circumstance it was just a hook to start my post cause the internet is nothing less of a meme as it will be for the next FOREVER.

That said, my argument still stands, having a huge super power like "Oceana" isn't a real benefit unless the whole of two nations find a necessary threat/evil (russian/China being Russia/China) or existential-reason (global warming) to merge. Comparatively how would this look if instead of Europe being adjoined into a single power with the US, if Australia were substituted; what contrasts and differences would arise? Is it the same? or am I just thread jacking? Who knowns, I dont.

[Durius]

:!:

I'm concerned that "superpowers protect the people by providing a necessary evil or designated enemy" is what you learned from the book 1984.

Given I used "in the sense" I was prompting a portion of the narrative and not the whole. Thank you for doubting my lack of comprehension skills. In this circumstance it was just a hook to start my post cause the internet is nothing less of a meme as it will be for the next FOREVER.

That said, my argument still stands, having a huge super power like "Oceana" isn't a real benefit unless the whole of two nations find a necessary threat/evil (russian/China being Russia/China) or existential-reason (global warming) to merge. Comparatively how would this look if instead of Europe being adjoined into a single power with the US, if Australia were substituted; what contrasts and differences would arise? Is it the same? or am I just thread jacking? Who knowns, I dont.

If you really want to take some lessons from 1984, then I think it's worth remembering who the three superpowers were. There was Oceania, which was essentially a united English-speaking world + South America which is often considered part of US backyard, there was Eurasia that was an alternative Soviet Union that managed to expand all the way to Lisbon, and there was Eastasia, dominated by China.

With that scenario, I think it's pretty reasonable to argue that, if anything, the European Federation makes this tripolar world described in 1984 more unlikely, as it can serve as a counterweight to the US (including disputing their influence over South America), prevent the conquest of Europe by Russia, and help contain Chinese influence, by preventing it from engulfing allies like Japan and Taiwan or debt-trapping nations in their Silk Road project.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

WEF hands typed this post

Mediterranean raider/conqueror hands typed this post

penguin flippers typed this post. took a long time, so you better appreciate it.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

:!:

I'm concerned that "superpowers protect the people by providing a necessary evil or designated enemy" is what you learned from the book 1984.

Given I used "in the sense" I was prompting a portion of the narrative and not the whole. Thank you for doubting my lack of comprehension skills. In this circumstance it was just a hook to start my post cause the internet is nothing less of a meme as it will be for the next FOREVER.

That said, my argument still stands, having a huge super power like "Oceana" isn't a real benefit unless the whole of two nations find a necessary threat/evil (russian/China being Russia/China) or existential-reason (global warming) to merge. Comparatively how would this look if instead of Europe being adjoined into a single power with the US, if Australia were substituted; what contrasts and differences would arise? Is it the same? or am I just thread jacking? Who knowns, I dont.

I haven’t read the book, but from what I know the idea is the war is stagnant because the nations need eachother to continue existing so they can have unifying enemies. I’m not sure what your point is.

[Saor Alba]

Structurally like the Soviet Union, ideologically it would result in fascism.

Yeah, liberal democracies love to function like a fascist Soviet Union. Astute political analysis.

[Indecent Anime Empire]

I haven’t read the book, but from what I know the idea is the war is stagnant because the nations need eachother to continue existing so they can have unifying enemies. I’m not sure what your point is.

The point of the book had deeper ties with government abuse of historical rendering (example: you know 9/11 happened because of people affected and unscripted news outlets. In the book people are scripted, events are invented, and news outlets are nonexistent unless controlled by the government) and populace control(every person has a specific job, strict rules such as not even being able to love unless permitted, or being watched constantly). A real world example of what this is like would be, Russia has used tactics against its own populace to paint a narrative where some nation(any nation) has been politically/economically(or for any reason disliked for being NATO supporters) strikes Russia first. In truth it was Russia and evidence to it being Russia is pretty obvious if you did any research of your own unless all you do is watch the Russian news. Well, that leads us to the feedback look of how history can be written by certain countries which in turn created the "ever-on-going" war which possibly wasn't even occurring. No one sees the war, the only evidence of it is occasional bombs falling from the sky.

Lets not forget: BIG BROTHER IS ALWAYS WATCHING.

[Portzania]

Mediterranean raider/conqueror hands typed this post

so... fvcking... trve...