Are 8+ hour workdays unreasonable?

[Trollgaard]

Then you really aren't trying very hard to get a job.

I think a lot of people just don't know where to look. Looking in the wrong places will kill a job search.

A lot of people seem to think having no job than a job they look down on, or think they are too good for. There's always work. You may have to have a flexible schedule and be willing to work weekends, holidays, etc for some of them, though. Maybe nights too. That opens up a whole possibility of other jobs there.

[Cekoviu]

If the lowest jobs won't accept you, it may be too late. I need something like slavery to sell myself into if I'm too desperate.

Then you really aren't trying very hard to get a job.

It can be much more difficult or much easier depending on the location. I have some sympathy for Saiwania in this regard.

[Ethel mermania]

Yes the longer you are unemployed the harder it is to get a job, But once you have one it become much easier to get another. Start low. It will be a shit job, but use it as a spring board to the next one.

If the lowest jobs won't accept you, it may be too late. I need something like slavery to sell myself into if I'm too desperate.

Pfft, Say. “Do you want fries with that for 6 months”. Then go get something else

[Saiwania]

A lot of people seem to think having no job than a job they look down on, or think they are too good for. There's always work. You may have to have a flexible schedule and be willing to work weekends, holidays, etc for some of them, though. Maybe nights too. That opens up a whole possibility of other jobs there.

Sure there is always work, but by a job posting's very nature, if you aren't the only one who applied and you're objectively not the most appealing, with some things like age being out of your control- you can perhaps be passed over for someone else nearly 100% of the time.

[Trollgaard]

Then you really aren't trying very hard to get a job.

The Incels exist, so surely is there not also a group out there that are the losers that can't land a job as opposed to the losers that can't ever get laid? The two likely overlap, but won't be exactly the same I'd expect?

Haha, I guess. There are always jobs. I could have 3 jobs in a week if I needed them. I may not like my schedule, may have to shave, etc etc, but they are out there. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices. If you are desperate for a job be willing to work any shift, anytime. Be flexible.

[Ethel mermania]

Then you really aren't trying very hard to get a job.

It can be much more difficult or much easier depending on the location. I have some sympathy for Saiwania in this regard.

In the states unemployment is at the lowest level it has been at in my life. The jobs may not be great jobs, but there are jobs out there.

[Herador]

Indeed.com should be your first stop, plus the gas stations & restaurants closest to you. Running a register at 3am and a dishwasher requires little previous experience and no education.

I'm gonna just bump this onto the next page and hope he sees it.

[Cekoviu]

It can be much more difficult or much easier depending on the location. I have some sympathy for Saiwania in this regard.

In the states unemployment is at the lowest level it has been at in my life. The jobs may not be great jobs, but there are jobs out there.

On average, and that average obfuscates the problems that some have because people tend to assume averages are just applicable everywhere.
And low unemployment also means it's harder for those few remaining unemployed people to get a job.

[Trollgaard]

A lot of people seem to think having no job than a job they look down on, or think they are too good for. There's always work. You may have to have a flexible schedule and be willing to work weekends, holidays, etc for some of them, though. Maybe nights too. That opens up a whole possibility of other jobs there.

Sure there is always work, but by a job posting's very nature, if you aren't the only one who applied and you're objectively not the most appealing, with some things like age being out of your control- you can perhaps be passed over for someone else nearly 100% of the time.

Go in person if you see a sign saying they are hiring. Ask to speak with the manager. Ask for an application there. Also....ask your friends if their jobs are hiring. Sometimes all you need a bit of help to get your foot in the door.

Also don't be a creep. Be polite. Keep your mouth shut about controversial subjects. Have a firm handshake. Look people in the eye.

[Post War America]

Personally I don't find 8 hour days to be unreasonable. Politically however, I am morally opposed to the robbery or perhaps more charitably, coerced bargaining away of most of our waking lives by the capitalist class.

I find it to be the height of hubris to claim that an 8 hour work day is "unreasonable", while there are people who voluntarily work that long. Whether or not a workday is "reasonable" should be entirely up to agreement of the employer and the employee. If a workday is truly "unreasonable", than it will be shown as such by the fact that nobody will work as long. The fact that people actually do work 8 hour days therefore disproves the idea that an 8 hour workday is unreasonable.

Have you considered the possibility that both parties in the employee-employer do not have the same or even similar bargaining power? An employee can believe a long workday is unreasonable but still work it because the employee needs to participate in wage-labor to survive whereas the employer can simply remove troublesome employees and replace them with other desperate people. Negotiations with employers, unless one has a very rare, and in demand, skill will generally be employers dictating terms, and employees, under threat of starvation, homelessness, or other unpleasant and life threatening things, accepting terms they may not agree with because otherwise they will be unable to acquire resources critical to survival.

[Trollgaard]

Indeed.com should be your first stop, plus the gas stations & restaurants closest to you. Running a register at 3am and a dishwasher requires little previous experience and no education.

I'm gonna just bump this onto the next page and hope he sees it.

Exactly.

Easy way to get some experience on your resume. It may suck, but you make sacrifices to make progress.

Also look into lawn care. I don't know how physically fit you you are, Sai, but lawn care can pay well, but its hard work.

[Trollgaard]

Personally I don't find 8 hour days to be unreasonable. Politically however, I am morally opposed to the robbery or perhaps more charitably, coerced bargaining away of most of our waking lives by the capitalist class.

I find it to be the height of hubris to claim that an 8 hour work day is "unreasonable", while there are people who voluntarily work that long. Whether or not a workday is "reasonable" should be entirely up to agreement of the employer and the employee. If a workday is truly "unreasonable", than it will be shown as such by the fact that nobody will work as long. The fact that people actually do work 8 hour days therefore disproves the idea that an 8 hour workday is unreasonable.

Have you considered the possibility that both parties in the employee-employer do not have the same or even similar bargaining power? An employee can believe a long workday is unreasonable but still work it because the employee needs to participate in wage-labor to survive whereas the employer can simply remove troublesome employees and replace them with other desperate people. Negotiations with employers, unless one has a very rare, and in demand, skill will generally be employers dictating terms, and employees, under threat of starvation, homelessness, or other unpleasant and life threatening things, accepting terms they may not agree with because otherwise they will be unable to acquire resources critical to survival.

So what?

[Ethel mermania]

In the states unemployment is at the lowest level it has been at in my life. The jobs may not be great jobs, but there are jobs out there.

On average, and that average obfuscates the problems that some have because people tend to assume averages are just applicable everywhere.
And low unemployment also means it's harder for those few remaining unemployed people to get a job.

Granted i am in NYC, but every place i go is looking to hire folks for entry level positions. I work in a fairly technical field, but i cant get qualified people, and neither can my contractors.

[Cappuccina]

Then you really aren't trying very hard to get a job.

The Incels exist, so surely is there not also a group out there that are the losers that can't land a job as opposed to the losers that can't ever get laid? The two likely overlap, but won't be exactly the same I'd expect?

The latter is a minor issue, the former isn't.

[Post War America]

Personally I don't find 8 hour days to be unreasonable. Politically however, I am morally opposed to the robbery or perhaps more charitably, coerced bargaining away of most of our waking lives by the capitalist class.



Have you considered the possibility that both parties in the employee-employer do not have the same or even similar bargaining power? An employee can believe a long workday is unreasonable but still work it because the employee needs to participate in wage-labor to survive whereas the employer can simply remove troublesome employees and replace them with other desperate people. Negotiations with employers, unless one has a very rare, and in demand, skill will generally be employers dictating terms, and employees, under threat of starvation, homelessness, or other unpleasant and life threatening things, accepting terms they may not agree with because otherwise they will be unable to acquire resources critical to survival.

So what?

Is it not a right wing talking point that coercion invalidates agreements?

[Trollgaard]

On average, and that average obfuscates the problems that some have because people tend to assume averages are just applicable everywhere.
And low unemployment also means it's harder for those few remaining unemployed people to get a job.

Granted i am in NYC, but every place i go is looking to hire folks for entry level positions. I work in a fairly technical field, but i cant get qualified people, and neither can my contractors.

I'm in the Midwest, and its similar: I see help wanted signs all over the place.

[Post War America]

Personally I don't find 8 hour days to be unreasonable. Politically however, I am morally opposed to the robbery or perhaps more charitably, coerced bargaining away of most of our waking lives by the capitalist class.



Have you considered the possibility that both parties in the employee-employer do not have the same or even similar bargaining power? An employee can believe a long workday is unreasonable but still work it because the employee needs to participate in wage-labor to survive whereas the employer can simply remove troublesome employees and replace them with other desperate people. Negotiations with employers, unless one has a very rare, and in demand, skill will generally be employers dictating terms, and employees, under threat of starvation, homelessness, or other unpleasant and life threatening things, accepting terms they may not agree with because otherwise they will be unable to acquire resources critical to survival.

So what?

Is it not a right wing talking point that coercion invalidates agreements?

[Trollgaard]

So what?

Is it not a right wing talking point that coercion invalidates agreements?

I don't really care?

It is what it is. If you can survive without a job, then don't work! If you need a job then you play ball. Simple as that.

[Saiwania]

Granted i am in NYC, but every place i go is looking to hire folks for entry level positions. I work in a fairly technical field, but i cant get qualified people, and neither can my contractors.

In your opinion, is the entry level bar set too high compared to "back in the old days" or is the issue more of a lack of willingness for the private sector to do training anymore because its expensive and been offloaded to universities/colleges/trade schools that vary in quality and thus don't guarantee the people you're looking for?

[Ethel mermania]

Granted i am in NYC, but every place i go is looking to hire folks for entry level positions. I work in a fairly technical field, but i cant get qualified people, and neither can my contractors.

In your opinion, is the entry level bar set too high compared to "back in the old days" or is the issue more of a lack of willingness for the private sector to do training anymore because its expensive and been offloaded to universities/colleges/trade schools that vary in quality and thus don't guarantee the people you're looking for?

Oh sure, ask me a question that requires nuance to answer.

It kinda depends. If it is entry level at a retail establishment like say target, no its easy to get in and if you can fake happiness and joy for 8 hours you can advance. And while you are there learn how to do something else using the target income to fund your education.


Now if you are looking for a job with me, i require a degree and some experience, or no degree and a lot of experience in exactly what we do, but i am not looking for entry level.

[Saiwania]

My experience is that everyone who's looking for degrees wants a Bachelors or higher. An Associates hasn't helped me one bit. It was the compromise I made between not going to college at all and getting some. I wish I did trade school instead. I didn't pick a worthless major like "diversity studies" or something ultra liberal arts, it just happened to not be a good fit for my location and I went about things the wrong way.

I'm thinking if I picked something like the legal, financial, or medical sectors (even if I don't like any of it) that it's practical enough to exist almost anywhere you go.

[Turbofolkia]

My experience is that everyone who's looking for degrees wants a Bachelors or higher. An Associates hasn't helped me one bit. It was the compromise I made between not going to college at all and getting some. I wish I did trade school instead. I didn't pick a worthless major like "diversity studies" or something ultra liberal arts, it just happened to not be a good fit for my location and I went about things the wrong way.

I'm thinking if I picked something like the legal, financial, or medical sectors (even if I don't like any of it) that it's practical enough to exist almost anywhere you go.

How old are you? If you are under 25 you may still have some hope in finding an entry level job. If you are going on 30 it is going to be very, very difficult.

The most obvious course of action is to still enroll in a university course like the ones you just named. If you get good grades you will be bound to get a look in even without experience, and getting good grades doesn't even require an interest in the matter or a high level of intelligence, just discipline. However I understand that enrolling in a university course doesn't come easy or cheap for you Americans like it does elsewhere, unfortunately.

[The Sherpa Empire]

You didn't factor in weekends in your math. Working 8 hours is doable in most jobs, but weekends are important, and jobs that are very physically demanding or require intense concentration should have shorter shifts.

I work part time, usually 20-30 hours a week, closer to 30 the last few weeks. Sometimes they offer extra hours. Sometimes I come in for the extra hours and sometimes I don't. I'm generally on time to my regular shift, but for extra shifts, I show up whenever I get around to it, and I've sometimes been 2 or 3 hours late because I slept in and had a leisurely lunch first.

[Holdac]

Kind of a simple opening post but it can spark a lot of discussion. If you're "supposed" to get 8 hours of sleep and work 8 hours a day, that only leaves 8 hours to do everything else. Does this seem reasonable and fair to spend only 1/3 of your life doing things you want to do? (Or, most likely, 1/4 or 1/5, since you'll probably spend 1-2 hours or even more doing chores, paying bills, eating, and washing dishes in your supposed free time) Why is it considered honorable to work long hours and barely make a livable wage? Why do people take pride in selling their lives away to companies that don't give a damn about them?

For me personally, I refuse to work more than 6 hours a day, and that includes with a lunch break. It's to the company's benefit anyway, because I spend those hours working extremely hard. If I recall correctly, the average work day in The Netherlands is about 6.2 hours, the average person works 4 days a week, for about 30 hours a week. And yet, they aren't any less productive than Americans, Canadians, or anyone else expected to work more for less pay.

6 hours is already my personal limit, as I on average require 10 hours of sleep, which again, leaves only 8 hours to do anything, and that is definitely not enough time. Because of this I can only do part time jobs, which don't pay anywhere close to a livable wage, with the exception of my current job, which I took solely because I can make a livable wage off of it while working as little or as much as I want.

So my main questions are, what is a reasonable amount of working hours? How much are you willing to wagecuck each day, and for how much money do you think your work is worth? (Be honest. If you're lazy as hell, don't act like you deserve as much as someone who works half the hours but thrice as hard.) Also, do you think having to work for nearly your entire life (at least, the generally considered healthy part of it, aka when you're not old and dying) is okay? Are you fine with having to save up for 10 years on average to afford a house if you live in America or Canada?

*Holdanian Peasants laugh in 20 hours*

[Saiwania]

How old are you? If you are under 25 you may still have some hope in finding an entry level job. If you are going on 30 it is going to be very, very difficult.

The most obvious course of action is to still enroll in a university course like the ones you just named. If you get good grades you will be bound to get a look in even without experience, and getting good grades doesn't even require an interest in the matter or a high level of intelligence, just discipline. However I understand that enrolling in a university course doesn't come easy or cheap for you Americans like it does elsewhere, unfortunately.

I'm 30, so I'm prepared to die when the money and support is all gone. I don't want it to be from starvation but a gun is easy enough for me to use on myself, but at the same time, I might not have the nerve to do so and want to try lasting as long as I can in defiance, but it'll perhaps be too painful. But I'm also curious as to how long I could be homeless before dying if this is inevitable.

If I made all the wrong choices, I want other people to avoid that while they can.