NationStates

Posted: **Sat May 25, 2019 1:12 pm**

Necroghastia wrote:Hm? I thought we were talking about homeless shelters, not nudist resorts.

It's beside the point, but okay.

Posted: **Sat May 25, 2019 1:12 pm**

Risastorstein wrote:
Mettaton-EX wrote:yes, that's the middle school definition. not the one used by actual biologists.

No, actual biologists use this definition too. I don't know where you read it wasn't the case, but I'm pretty sure it was not in an actual scientific document.

why don't you read literally the first paragraph of the wikipedia page for "sex differences in humans" and then come back to me

Posted: **Sat May 25, 2019 1:13 pm**

Risastorstein wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:Hm? I thought we were talking about homeless shelters, not nudist resorts.

It's beside the point, but okay.

It's really not, unless you know of another situation wherein a group of people would immediately know what sort of junk someone is packing.

Posted: **Sat May 25, 2019 1:14 pm**

Risastorstein wrote:
Vassenor wrote:Thought about what?

That transitioning will put them in incongruous situations.

So people should build their entire lives and wellbeing around what will and will not confuse you personally?

Posted: **Sat May 25, 2019 1:14 pm**

Necroghastia wrote:Ah, so infertile people don't exist.

Again, you're missing the point. It's like if someone said "humans are quadrupled" and you retorted with "what about amputees?!?!!!1111!".

Posted: **Sat May 25, 2019 1:15 pm**

Risastorstein wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:Ah, so infertile people don't exist.

Again, you're missing the point. It's like if someone said "humans are quadrupled" and you retorted with "what about amputees?!?!!!1111!".

You're the one who categorised humans based on the output of their sexual organs, thus erasing individuals born with non-functional ones.

Posted: **Sat May 25, 2019 1:15 pm**

Vassenor wrote:So people should build their entire lives and wellbeing around what will and will not confuse you personally?

Not just me, but society at large. And they can do whatever they want want but it doesn't mean it won't have actual consequences.

Posted: **Sat May 25, 2019 1:17 pm**

Vassenor wrote:You're the one who categorised humans based on the output of their sexual organs, thus erasing individuals born with non-functional ones.

So that's why there is the intersex category. And even in this category, their phenotype tends toward one of the sexes.

Posted: **Sat May 25, 2019 1:19 pm**

Risastorstein wrote:
Vassenor wrote:So people should build their entire lives and wellbeing around what will and will not confuse you personally?

Not just me, but society at large. And they can do whatever they want want but it doesn't mean it won't have actual consequences.

Necroghastia wrote: Do you honestly believe putting the man on the bottom into a women-only shelter would cause less disruption and confusion? Same for the woman on top, in a men-only shelter?

Posted: **Sat May 25, 2019 1:24 pm**

Mettaton-EX wrote:why don't you read literally the first paragraph of the wikipedia page for "sex differences in humans" and then come back to me

And you the first paragraph of the "sex" article. It doesn't deny anything I said. And here's a quote of the article you mentioned: "Anisogamy, or the size differences of gametes (sex cells), is the defining feature of the two sexes".

Posted: **Sat May 25, 2019 1:25 pm**

My god this administration is such utter shit.

Posted: **Sat May 25, 2019 1:27 pm**

Necroghastia wrote: Do you honestly believe putting the man on the bottom into a women-only shelter would cause less disruption and confusion? Same for the woman on top, in a men-only shelter?

Neither solution is perfect but I'm pretty sure that biological women don't want people with penises with them.

Posted: **Sat May 25, 2019 1:30 pm**

Risastorstein wrote:
Necroghastia wrote: Do you honestly believe putting the man on the bottom into a women-only shelter would cause less disruption and confusion? Same for the woman on top, in a men-only shelter?

Neither solution is perfect but I'm pretty sure that biological women don't want people with penises with them.

Necroghastia wrote:
Risastorstein wrote:It's beside the point, but okay.

It's really not, unless you know of another situation wherein a group of people would immediately know what sort of junk someone is packing.

Posted: **Sat May 25, 2019 1:30 pm**

Having spent many years in various shelters across the US, I agree with this.

A mens shelter is no place for a woman and a womens shelter is no place for a man, biologically. Typically, genders separate in these places for very good reasons. Often, these shelters have communal showers, sleeping rooms, day rooms, and bathrooms. In one shelter ove been to you are required to strip and have your Clothes washed and dried to kill any bed bugs you may be carrying. Such a situation is not ideal for a transgender person. In other places both men and women sleep together outside in an enclosed area. Haven for Hope in San Antonio Texas comes to mind.

Of the shelters there are three types, church based and non profit based. The church ones are typically called Gospel Missions in the US, the non profits rely on subsidies and donations, and the last kind are places like GoodWill who offer some housing in exchange for making you work for a couple dollars an hour at one of their stores.

The restrictions to get I to a shelter usually encompasses a background check, a mental health check, and a sobriety or sometimes urinalysis test to get into. These are pretty standard throughout. But in almost all cases genders are separated. On the women's side you have a lot of domestic abuse and harassment issues as part of the reason they got there and even after they got onto the streets. Having them then mix with men is not ideal and does not foster a sense of security in an already vulnerable situation.

Equally, for mens shelters, you have a range of substance abuse and other factors in which it may be best for men to be separated out. In the case of transgendered people among the homeless community, I have met a few of them and typically they go to the shelter of their biological origins. If you were born a man, you go to the mens shelter regardless of what you identify as. Same for the women's shelter. It has thus far worked out. Even so, at food drives or other events where people can get food or clothing or other basic necessities, I've never seen an instance where anyone was denied.

Still though, if life brought you to a shelter, you are not in a position to make demands. Quite the opposite. It is their program and their rules at ALL times and a person in a shelter is expected to follow whatever rules they give or not receive their service. That is the way of life really.

Even still, I have met two transgendered people, both Male, both identifying as female chose to sleep outside rather than go to the shelter of their biological origins. I think they were less safe outside sleeping than to simply agree to the rules set for them.

The LGBT Community, if they feel should sponsor and fundraise for a shelter specifically for transgendered people if it is an issue they feel is worth pursuit. Demanding that shelters change their policies to make an accommodation is a little unfair to those who bought, paid for, and donate to these types of places, either mens or womens shelters.

Posted: **Sat May 25, 2019 1:38 pm**

Necroghastia wrote:It's really not, unless you know of another situation wherein a group of people would immediately know what sort of junk someone is packing.

I don't want to be rude but sometimes the biological sex is quite obvious.

Mus Tom wrote:Having spent many years in various shelters across the US, I agree with this.
[...]
The LGBT Community, if they feel should sponsor and fundraise for a shelter specifically for transgendered people if it is an issue they feel is worth pursuit. Demanding that shelters change their policies to make an accommodation is a little unfair to those who bought, paid for, and donate to these types of places, either mens or womens shelters.

I think I won't add anything in this thread because everything has been said by this person.

Posted: **Sat May 25, 2019 1:39 pm**

Risastorstein wrote:
Vassenor wrote:So people should build their entire lives and wellbeing around what will and will not confuse you personally?

Not just me, but society at large. And they can do whatever they want want but it doesn't mean it won't have actual consequences.

What do peoples' gender, regardless of anyone's viewpoint on it, have to do with whether or not they should be shown the same support by their community? Does it make them any less worthy of compassion?

Posted: **Sat May 25, 2019 1:49 pm**

Risastorstein wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:It's really not, unless you know of another situation wherein a group of people would immediately know what sort of junk someone is packing.

I don't want to be rude but sometimes the biological sex is quite obvious.

And other times, it isn't. Again, I posit to you this question:

Necroghastia wrote: Do you honestly believe putting the man on the bottom into a women-only shelter would cause less disruption and confusion? Same for the woman on top, in a men-only shelter?

Posted: **Sat May 25, 2019 1:58 pm**

Risastorstein wrote:
Mettaton-EX wrote:why don't you read literally the first paragraph of the wikipedia page for "sex differences in humans" and then come back to me

And you the first paragraph of the "sex" article. It doesn't deny anything I said. And here's a quote of the article you mentioned: "Anisogamy, or the size differences of gametes (sex cells), is the defining feature of the two sexes".

lol how are you people so bad at this

Posted: **Sat May 25, 2019 2:26 pm**

Buddha this man is bent on making me hate him deeply

Posted: **Sat May 25, 2019 8:56 pm**

Gagium wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
Actually, most homeless shelters are run by groups (such as the Salvation Army, despite their recent PR improvement attempts) that have historically thrown trans women out on the street (even in freezing temps), or forced them into accommodations with men, etc.

..And historically, segregation was rampant in the south. This is 2019 though, correct?

I'd like to see a source from the past decade that shows that these groups did so until Obama's policy was enacted,

There's plenty of other trans people who reported being thrown out of homeless shelters run by SA and its ilk, even prior to 2019.

or would do so upon its rollback.

Are you really so naive that you think they wouldn't go back to doing that?

Risastorstein wrote:Same-sex means same-sex. They should have thought about that before transitioning.

Stupid, meaningless platitude is stupid and meaningless.

Gagium wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
Tell that first one to Jennifer Gale, a trans woman who was found DEAD in freezing temperatures on the sidewalk next to a homeless shelter that wouldn't take her in because she was trans.

Mettaton-EX wrote:jennifer gale died in 2008

Just saw this...2008 was more than a decade ago though. The Salvation Army apparently would've allowed her into the shelter if she would be grouped with men, which when faced with death certainly seems like an option...right?

Implying people shouldn't have a better choice than "be treated like shit" or "fucking die".

The Salvation Army apparently had a policy of non-discrimination at the time, and the group apparently did 'what they can to accommodate all homeless people, regardless of gender status although they do have to adjust accommodations to particular circumstances':

Sure. "Non-discrimination".

https://www.austinchronicle.com/daily/news/2008-12-19/718507/

I wouldn't attribute her death to the fault of any homeless shelter nor discrimination.

I would. If my experience with homeless shelters was constantly one of being treated like shit and being dehumanized and facing other forms of injustice at every turn, eventually, I'd just give up on seeking their help altogether, too.

And despite this being before Obama's policy that Trump wants to roll back, it turns out that people aren't complete monsters who want to kill homeless trans people. Odd, isn't it?

Said the cis person who has never walked a mile in our shoes.

Posted: **Sat May 25, 2019 8:58 pm**

Risastorstein wrote:
Necroghastia wrote: Do you honestly believe putting the man on the bottom into a women-only shelter would cause less disruption and confusion? Same for the woman on top, in a men-only shelter?

Neither solution is perfect but I'm pretty sure that biological women don't want people with penises with them.

How would they even fucking know?

Posted: **Sat May 25, 2019 9:49 pm**

Risastorstein wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:It's really not, unless you know of another situation wherein a group of people would immediately know what sort of junk someone is packing.

I don't want to be rude but sometimes the biological sex is quite obvious.

Mus Tom wrote:Having spent many years in various shelters across the US, I agree with this.
[...]
The LGBT Community, if they feel should sponsor and fundraise for a shelter specifically for transgendered people if it is an issue they feel is worth pursuit. Demanding that shelters change their policies to make an accommodation is a little unfair to those who bought, paid for, and donate to these types of places, either mens or womens shelters.

I think I won't add anything in this thread because everything has been said by this person.

There is literally no possible reason for single-sex homeless shelters, save those which are spacifically domestic abuse refuges.

Posted: **Sat May 25, 2019 9:51 pm**

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Risastorstein wrote:
I don't want to be rude but sometimes the biological sex is quite obvious.

I think I won't add anything in this thread because everything has been said by this person.

There is literally no possible reason for single-sex homeless shelters, save those which are spacifically domestic abuse refuges.

Why should those be single-sex?

Posted: **Sat May 25, 2019 9:57 pm**

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Risastorstein wrote:
I don't want to be rude but sometimes the biological sex is quite obvious.

I think I won't add anything in this thread because everything has been said by this person.

There is literally no possible reason for single-sex homeless shelters, save those which are spacifically domestic abuse refuges.

There absolutely is. Drug abuse, sexual assault, physical altercations et al are already rampant in homeless shelters. Co-ed shelters would be even worse.

Posted: **Sat May 25, 2019 9:57 pm**

Nova Cyberia wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:There is literally no possible reason for single-sex homeless shelters, save those which are spacifically domestic abuse refuges.

Why should those be single-sex?

Because people in those shelters have real reasons not to want to meet the opposite sex.
However, the law should require equal provisions.

NationStates

Homeless shelters in US may soon be able to deny transgender