Islamic Discussion Thread ٣

[Kubumba Tribe]

NO

I'm curious, on what basis do you dispute this fact?

Because it's not a fact. It's disputed.

[Kubumba Tribe]

I like your flag, Bhikkustan

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

I'm curious, on what basis do you dispute this fact?

Because it's not a fact. It's disputed.

Disputed how? A clear majority of Muslims firmly believe the age of Aisha at consummation with Muhammed was 9. Such is why Muslims allow their daughters to be married off at that age.

[Kubumba Tribe]

>Implying that every Muslim does this<
http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm
http://www.discoveringislam.org/aisha_age.htm
http://www.islamicity.org/3390/at-what- ... mmad-pbuh/

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

>Implying that every Muslim does this<
http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm
http://www.discoveringislam.org/aisha_age.htm
http://www.islamicity.org/3390/at-what- ... mmad-pbuh/

Please reread my statement again, I EXPLICITELY stated: clear MAJORITY. i.e. Not quote end quote 'every Muslim'.

[Kubumba Tribe]

>Implying that every Muslim does this<
http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm
http://www.discoveringislam.org/aisha_age.htm
http://www.islamicity.org/3390/at-what- ... mmad-pbuh/

Please reread my statement again, I EXPLICITELY stated: clear MAJORITY. i.e. Not quote end quote 'every Muslim'.

True. Also, this happens in cultures that do child marriages. Also, in Al-Islam, there has to be consent from both parties, and the families can't force anyone to get married.

[Kubumba Tribe]

https://islamqa.info/en/146882

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

Please reread my statement again, I EXPLICITELY stated: clear MAJORITY. i.e. Not quote end quote 'every Muslim'.

True. Also, this happens in cultures that do child marriages. Also, in Al-Islam, there has to be consent from both parties, and the families can't force anyone to get married.

Well if we were in the Middle Ages I would agree with you, however it is a known fact that Islam for women has throughout the centuries become regressive as opposed to progressive. A well known example was the fact that in the 7th century, muslim women served as mosque deacons, while in the modern day there is a clear segregation in many mosques. Also the very face and symbol of Islam, Saudi Arabia, keeper and protector of Muhammed's holiest of cities, don't even allow their women to drive without express Government permission and enforce a strict dress code.
Let's also focus on the fact that 9 year old girls can't think independently yet, so of-course if their parents want it, she has no choice on the matter of marriage.

[Kubumba Tribe]

True. Also, this happens in cultures that do child marriages. Also, in Al-Islam, there has to be consent from both parties, and the families can't force anyone to get married.

Well if we were in the Middle Ages I would agree with you, however it is a known fact that Islam for women has throughout the centuries become regressive as opposed to progressive. A well known example was the fact that in the 7th century, muslim women served as mosque deacons, while in the modern day there is a clear segregation in many mosques. Also the very face and symbol of Islam, Saudi Arabia, keeper and protector of Muhammed's holiest of cities, don't even allow their women to drive without express Government permission and enforce a strict dress code.
Let's also focus on the fact that 9 year old girls can't think independently yet, so of-course if their parents want it, she has no choice on the matter of marriage.

Al-Islam stays the same for centuries, it's Muslims that change, don;t get the 2 mixed up. And why do you look to one corrupt country to define Al-Islam instead of reading the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah for Al-Islam? And like I said before, Aisha (RA) might not have been 9.

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

Well if we were in the Middle Ages I would agree with you, however it is a known fact that Islam for women has throughout the centuries become regressive as opposed to progressive. A well known example was the fact that in the 7th century, muslim women served as mosque deacons, while in the modern day there is a clear segregation in many mosques. Also the very face and symbol of Islam, Saudi Arabia, keeper and protector of Muhammed's holiest of cities, don't even allow their women to drive without express Government permission and enforce a strict dress code.
Let's also focus on the fact that 9 year old girls can't think independently yet, so of-course if their parents want it, she has no choice on the matter of marriage.

Al-Islam stays the same for centuries, it's Muslims that change, don;t get the 2 mixed up. And why do you look to one corrupt country to define Al-Islam instead of reading the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah for Al-Islam? And like I said before, Aisha (RA) might not have been 9.

I understand that it's the Muslims that change, at the end of the day, there is a reason why Islam became so large so rapidly outside of the Islamic Conquests, and that was because it was extremely tolerant for Middle Ages standards, what with the implementation of the Dhimmi system.
Because that country is the birth place of the Qur'an, where the Qur'an is practiced to the letter in accordance with its commandments for Sharia.
And again, let me restate, most Muslims believe she was 9, the range for the age even goes down to 6 in some areas, but generally 9 is accepted.

[Hazestan]

Al-Islam stays the same for centuries, it's Muslims that change, don;t get the 2 mixed up. And why do you look to one corrupt country to define Al-Islam instead of reading the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah for Al-Islam? And like I said before, Aisha (RA) might not have been 9.

I understand that it's the Muslims that change, at the end of the day, there is a reason why Islam became so large so rapidly outside of the Islamic Conquests, and that was because it was extremely tolerant for Middle Ages standards, what with the implementation of the Dhimmi system.
Because that country is the birth place of the Qur'an, where the Qur'an is practiced to the letter in accordance with its commandments for Sharia.
And again, let me restate, most Muslims believe she was 9, the range for the age even goes down to 6 in some areas, but generally 9 is accepted.

But believing does not imply of approving.

[Kubumba Tribe]

Al-Islam stays the same for centuries, it's Muslims that change, don;t get the 2 mixed up. And why do you look to one corrupt country to define Al-Islam instead of reading the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah for Al-Islam? And like I said before, Aisha (RA) might not have been 9.

I understand that it's the Muslims that change, at the end of the day, there is a reason why Islam became so large so rapidly outside of the Islamic Conquests, and that was because it was extremely tolerant for Middle Ages standards, what with the implementation of the Dhimmi system.
Because that country is the birth place of the Qur'an, where the Qur'an is practiced to the letter in accordance with its commandments for Sharia.
And again, let me restate, most Muslims believe she was 9, the range for the age even goes down to 6 in some areas, but generally 9 is accepted.

So you don't read what Allah (SWT) says, you read what SA says? And so what if most Muslims believe she was 9? Does that make them right just because they're the majority? And again, do you hear what Muslims say, or what Allah (SWT) says?

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

I understand that it's the Muslims that change, at the end of the day, there is a reason why Islam became so large so rapidly outside of the Islamic Conquests, and that was because it was extremely tolerant for Middle Ages standards, what with the implementation of the Dhimmi system.
Because that country is the birth place of the Qur'an, where the Qur'an is practiced to the letter in accordance with its commandments for Sharia.
And again, let me restate, most Muslims believe she was 9, the range for the age even goes down to 6 in some areas, but generally 9 is accepted.

But believing does not imply of approving.

What do you mean?

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

I understand that it's the Muslims that change, at the end of the day, there is a reason why Islam became so large so rapidly outside of the Islamic Conquests, and that was because it was extremely tolerant for Middle Ages standards, what with the implementation of the Dhimmi system.
Because that country is the birth place of the Qur'an, where the Qur'an is practiced to the letter in accordance with its commandments for Sharia.
And again, let me restate, most Muslims believe she was 9, the range for the age even goes down to 6 in some areas, but generally 9 is accepted.

So you don't read what Allah (SWT) says, you read what SA says? And so what if most Muslims believe she was 9? Does that make them right just because they're the majority? And again, do you hear what Muslims say, or what Allah (SWT) says?

On the contrary, isn't SA following the will of Allah, I mean surely if they weren't, they would have no right to be the safekeepers of Mecca and Medinah.
Well, in the eyes of the majority of Muslims yes, in the eyes of secularists obviously not, for it's illegal, but the fact is, the majority believe this to be right and practice it as such. I mean the same argument can be applied to Islam, a majority of the World believes that Islam has the right to be practiced freely, but obviously there are minority groups who want to eradicate Islam, does this, by your argument, mean that the majority of the World is wrong?
As for listening to Allah, Allah is best heard from the voices of his people, the Muslims, who do his will on Earth, so obviously in order to listen to Allah, one must listen to a Muslim, for it is expected of a Muslim to understand the words of Allah from the Qur'an.

[Hazestan]

So you don't read what Allah (SWT) says, you read what SA says? And so what if most Muslims believe she was 9? Does that make them right just because they're the majority? And again, do you hear what Muslims say, or what Allah (SWT) says?

On the contrary, isn't SA following the will of Allah, I mean surely if they weren't, they would have no right to be the safekeepers of Mecca and Medinah.
Well, in the eyes of the majority of Muslims yes, in the eyes of secularists obviously not, for it's illegal, but the fact is, the majority believe this to be right and practice it as such. I mean the same argument can be applied to Islam, a majority of the World believes that Islam has the right to be practiced freely, but obviously there are minority groups who want to eradicate Islam, does this, by your argument, mean that the majority of the World is wrong?
As for listening to Allah, Allah is best heard from the voices of his people, the Muslims, who do his will on Earth, so obviously in order to listen to Allah, one must listen to a Muslim, for it is expected of a Muslim to understand the words of Allah from the Qur'an.

No, following SA is not following the will of Allah swt. That's Wahhabist thought. There is no legitimate reason to follow a government purely on the fact that they hold Mekkah and Medinah.
Furthermore, some Iranian scholars argue that Aisha's real age was 19. Some even say 21. I find it lowkey however, to argue about this and not the essence of Islam. One must keep the dynamic of culture and time in relevation with a certain historical event. Ie Aisha's marriage, if she was 9, was maybe normal in that time and culture. However, there is no rule of law from God to marry nine year old girls.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

On the contrary, isn't SA following the will of Allah, I mean surely if they weren't, they would have no right to be the safekeepers of Mecca and Medinah.
Well, in the eyes of the majority of Muslims yes, in the eyes of secularists obviously not, for it's illegal, but the fact is, the majority believe this to be right and practice it as such. I mean the same argument can be applied to Islam, a majority of the World believes that Islam has the right to be practiced freely, but obviously there are minority groups who want to eradicate Islam, does this, by your argument, mean that the majority of the World is wrong?
As for listening to Allah, Allah is best heard from the voices of his people, the Muslims, who do his will on Earth, so obviously in order to listen to Allah, one must listen to a Muslim, for it is expected of a Muslim to understand the words of Allah from the Qur'an.

No, following SA is not following the will of Allah swt. That's Wahhabist thought. There is no legitimate reason to follow a government purely on the fact that they hold Mekkah and Medinah.
Furthermore, some Iranian scholars argue that Aisha's real age was 19. Some even say 21. I find it lowkey however, to argue about this and not the essence of Islam. One must keep the dynamic of culture and time in relevation with a certain historical event. Ie Aisha's marriage, if she was 9, was maybe normal in that time and culture. However, there is no rule of law from God to marry nine year old girls.

This is something that some non-Muslims don't understand. You don't learn about Al-Islam from any layman Muslim, you learn by those who've done their homework, and even better would be to read the Holy Qur'an.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Well, in the eyes of the majority of Muslims yes

Says who? You've given no proof that majority believes SA is on the Haqq. Nor about us believing that Aisha was 9

[Hazestan]

No, following SA is not following the will of Allah swt. That's Wahhabist thought. There is no legitimate reason to follow a government purely on the fact that they hold Mekkah and Medinah.
Furthermore, some Iranian scholars argue that Aisha's real age was 19. Some even say 21. I find it lowkey however, to argue about this and not the essence of Islam. One must keep the dynamic of culture and time in relevation with a certain historical event. Ie Aisha's marriage, if she was 9, was maybe normal in that time and culture. However, there is no rule of law from God to marry nine year old girls.

This is something that some non-Muslims don't understand. You don't learn about Al-Islam from any layman Muslim, you learn by those who've done their homework, and even better would be to read the Holy Qur'an.

Well, if I would like to know about Christianity I would
A) Read the Church documents about certain things (for Roman Catholicism)
B) Read the Holy scriptures
C) Ask Roman Catholic clergy

I wouldn't trust a random believer with encompassing all believe.

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

Well, in the eyes of the majority of Muslims yes

Says who? You've given no proof that majority believes SA is on the Haqq. Nor about us believing that Aisha was 9

I never said anything about SA being believed by the majority to be on the Haqq, please reread my statement, in fact, quote it to understand what I said.

As for Aisha: I do not need to provide you with evidence on the matter of Muslim's belief of her age, as this is common knowledge ad infinitum, that most Muslims believe she was 9, and an even greater total percentage if we were to use the 6 to 14 range, which would still make the Prophet by definition of secular laws a 'pedophile'.
And if you're not satisfied with my explanation on how this could be a bad thing, let's look at the social effects this has had on the Islamic female community for the past 1,000 years. Women are oppressed, forced to abide by a dress code, don't have the freedom to even drive in the holiest cities in all of Islam, and are subject to greater abuse than their male counterparts in the form of quote end quote 'honor killings'.

[Mahdistan]

Also the very face and symbol of Islam, Saudi Arabia

Wat

I know very few Muslims who support the government of Saudi Arabia. I'm sure there are a few, but they are definitely not the majority. Not only is the Salafist ideology they follow one of the most hated groups among Muslims, but even many fellow Salafists hate the Saudi government for their friendliness to the west; Al-Qaeda was formed because many Salafists were angry that they allowed the U.S. to station troops there (among many other reasons, of course).

[Mahdistan]

Al-Islam stays the same for centuries, it's Muslims that change, don;t get the 2 mixed up. And why do you look to one corrupt country to define Al-Islam instead of reading the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah for Al-Islam? And like I said before, Aisha (RA) might not have been 9.

I understand that it's the Muslims that change, at the end of the day, there is a reason why Islam became so large so rapidly outside of the Islamic Conquests, and that was because it was extremely tolerant for Middle Ages standards, what with the implementation of the Dhimmi system.
Because that country is the birth place of the Qur'an, where the Qur'an is practiced to the letter in accordance with its commandments for Sharia.
And again, let me restate, most Muslims believe she was 9, the range for the age even goes down to 6 in some areas, but generally 9 is accepted.

The Saudi kings and princes are known be be avid drinkers and adulterers. They believe Shariah does not apply to them- which is against Shariah. There are many other example of Saudi Arabia's failures to enforce holy law in Arabia.

And that the majority of Muslims believe that Aisha was 9 is irrelevant; evidence clearly points to her having been in her teens, and evidence is more important than opinions. Pedophilia is in reference to a child who has not entered puberty. 13-16, especially at that time due to shorter life-spans, would mean that puberty undoubtedly would have already have occured- thus, no, the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was not a pedophile.

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

No, following SA is not following the will of Allah swt. That's Wahhabist thought. There is no legitimate reason to follow a government purely on the fact that they hold Mekkah and Medinah.
Furthermore, some Iranian scholars argue that Aisha's real age was 19. Some even say 21. I find it lowkey however, to argue about this and not the essence of Islam. One must keep the dynamic of culture and time in relevation with a certain historical event. Ie Aisha's marriage, if she was 9, was maybe normal in that time and culture. However, there is no rule of law from God to marry nine year old girls.

This is something that some non-Muslims don't understand. You don't learn about Al-Islam from any layman Muslim, you learn by those who've done their homework, and even better would be to read the Holy Qur'an.

The thing is though, as a non-Muslim, (and a Protestant Christian at that) I wouldn't want to read a book that is reputable for inspiring famous modern day terrorist attacks ranging from 9/11 to the recent Paris Terror Attacks.
You might say, that's unfair and Unislamic, to which I say yes that's true, but the thing is, it's also not. Considering the fact that Muslims believe that the Qur'an is LITERALLY Allah's words, you have to follow everything by the letter, and there are passages in there stating what to do to your enemies, which you'll probably claim that those are for self defence, but the thing is, the West is seen by many Muslims in the Middle East as something to defend against, as such technically, in accordance with the belief of the Muslims who committed 9/11, what they did was 'Islamic' as they were defending Islam from their so called enemy as instructed of them by the Qur'an.

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

I understand that it's the Muslims that change, at the end of the day, there is a reason why Islam became so large so rapidly outside of the Islamic Conquests, and that was because it was extremely tolerant for Middle Ages standards, what with the implementation of the Dhimmi system.
Because that country is the birth place of the Qur'an, where the Qur'an is practiced to the letter in accordance with its commandments for Sharia.
And again, let me restate, most Muslims believe she was 9, the range for the age even goes down to 6 in some areas, but generally 9 is accepted.

The Saudi kings and princes are known be be avid drinkers and adulterers. They believe Shariah does not apply to them- which is against Shariah. There are many other example of Saudi Arabia's failures to enforce holy law in Arabia.

And that the majority of Muslims believe that Aisha was 9 is irrelevant; evidence clearly points to her having been in her teens, and evidence is more important than opinions. Pedophilia is in reference to a child who has not entered puberty. 13-16, especially at that time due to shorter life-spans, would mean that puberty undoubtedly would have already have occured- thus, no, the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was not a pedophile.

You do realise that secular Law states you're not a legal adult till 18 right? Thus legally speaking, Muhammed was a pedophile.

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

Also the very face and symbol of Islam, Saudi Arabia

Wat

I know very few Muslims who support the government of Saudi Arabia. I'm sure there are a few, but they are definitely not the majority. Not only is the Salafist ideology they follow one of the most hated groups among Muslims, but even many fellow Salafists hate the Saudi government for their friendliness to the west; Al-Qaeda was formed because many Salafists were angry that they allowed the U.S. to station troops there (among many other reasons, of course).

So are you saying, that 'true Muslims' hate America?

[Mahdistan]

So you don't read what Allah (SWT) says, you read what SA says? And so what if most Muslims believe she was 9? Does that make them right just because they're the majority? And again, do you hear what Muslims say, or what Allah (SWT) says?

On the contrary, isn't SA following the will of Allah, I mean surely if they weren't, they would have no right to be the safekeepers of Mecca and Medinah.
Well, in the eyes of the majority of Muslims yes, in the eyes of secularists obviously not, for it's illegal, but the fact is, the majority believe this to be right and practice it as such. I mean the same argument can be applied to Islam, a majority of the World believes that Islam has the right to be practiced freely, but obviously there are minority groups who want to eradicate Islam, does this, by your argument, mean that the majority of the World is wrong?
As for listening to Allah, Allah is best heard from the voices of his people, the Muslims, who do his will on Earth, so obviously in order to listen to Allah, one must listen to a Muslim, for it is expected of a Muslim to understand the words of Allah from the Qur'an.

They really don't.

This is a very strange argument you have here- we say the majority of Muslims are likely wrong about the age of Aisha because we have evidence. Anti-Muslims have consistently failed to provide evidence on why Islam must be destroyed, besides repeating the same easily-disprovable arguments and treating them like fact.

And the Quran, by our beliefs, is the literal word of God. If you want to know the literal word of God, read the Quran, don't ask some guy who says he's Muslim, and then believe everything he says. God doesn't want mindless drones obeying their peers; He wants intelligent, thinking men and women who can justify their worship by the gifts He has provided them- the holy Quran and the Sunnah of his Prophet.