Riots in St. Louis after Police kill Teen

[Farnhamia]

If you read the article, the guy brandished a knife, refused to put it down when ordered to do so and basically committed suicide by cop.

You know, this probably falls into the category of justifiable force; yet given where and when this was happening, I have to wonder why the officers didn't split up, put about 5-6' between them, and draw their nightsticks.

I mean, have you seen police nightsticks these days? Most of then are actually tonfas, and trying to attack two guys standing slightly apart armed with tonfas is just asking to get your butt kicked: Turn on either foe and the other one can crack you hard behind your knees and bring you down in an instant. And at that point, once you're on the ground, you're done.

Also, whatever happened to pepper spray? That will fuck up a would-be knife-murderer's day faster than anything I know...

Pepper spray is for women and all that kung-fu fighting crap is just that, crap. Why go through all that when you can just shoot the guy?

I do actually agree with you. Even so, the situation has probably skewed everyone's attitudes and sensibilities way out of what they would be normally. At this point, everything the Ferguson police do is wrong, even if it isn't. They should probably be stood down to protect them from fucking up even more.

[Germanic Templars]

If you read the article, the guy brandished a knife, refused to put it down when ordered to do so and basically committed suicide by cop.

You know, this probably falls into the category of justifiable force; yet given where and when this was happening, I have to wonder why the officers didn't split up, put about 5-6' between them, and draw their nightsticks.

I mean, have you seen police nightsticks these days? Most of then are actually tonfas, and trying to attack two guys standing slightly apart armed with tonfas is just asking to get your butt kicked: Turn on either foe and the other one can crack you hard behind your knees and bring you down in an instant. And at that point, once you're on the ground, you're done.

Also, whatever happened to pepper spray? That will fuck up a would-be knife-murderer's day faster than anything I know...

Who needs batons when the flash lights they carry are fricken huge and made of metal. Heck, was my dad's favorite weapon to choose when subduing a violent criminal. One good whack to the head and they learn quick. Hell my dad only used his gun three times out of the twelve years of service.

[Farnhamia]

You know, this probably falls into the category of justifiable force; yet given where and when this was happening, I have to wonder why the officers didn't split up, put about 5-6' between them, and draw their nightsticks.

I mean, have you seen police nightsticks these days? Most of then are actually tonfas, and trying to attack two guys standing slightly apart armed with tonfas is just asking to get your butt kicked: Turn on either foe and the other one can crack you hard behind your knees and bring you down in an instant. And at that point, once you're on the ground, you're done.

Also, whatever happened to pepper spray? That will fuck up a would-be knife-murderer's day faster than anything I know...

Who needs batons when the flash lights they carry are fricken huge and made of metal. Heck, was my dad's favorite weapon to choose when subduing a violent criminal. One good whack to the head and they learn quick. Hell my dad only used his gun three times out of the twelve years of service.

If they break the flashlight they'll have to pay for it.

[Alien Space Bats]

Their attitudes may well be, ASB, but they didn't start getting really cool equipment to enforce those attitudes until 2006, when the DoD started handing out military equipment to anyone who asked.

The recent flood of equipment DID in fact come after 2006, but this is a problem that's been building for years.

My wife and I have resolved to go online to Audible to buy and download Radley Balko's recent book, Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America's Police Forces (published last July); I'll pass along a book report in a few days...

[Farnhamia]

Their attitudes may well be, ASB, but they didn't start getting really cool equipment to enforce those attitudes until 2006, when the DoD started handing out military equipment to anyone who asked.

The recent flood of equipment DID in fact come after 2006, but this is a problem that's been building for years.

My wife and I have resolved to go online to Audible to buy and download Radley Balko's recent book, Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America's Police Forces (published last July); I'll pass along a book report in a few days...

Do, I've heard of that and I'd be interested in hearing what you think of it.

[Germanic Templars]

Who needs batons when the flash lights they carry are fricken huge and made of metal. Heck, was my dad's favorite weapon to choose when subduing a violent criminal. One good whack to the head and they learn quick. Hell my dad only used his gun three times out of the twelve years of service.

If they break the flashlight they'll have to pay for it.

That's if they did break. Seriously, I once played around with it and accidentally flung it right into my dad's truck. The flashlight was fine, me and the side of the truck were not.

[Alien Space Bats]

Pepper spray is for women and all that kung-fu fighting crap is just that, crap. Why go through all that when you can just shoot the guy?

LOL. God, that is SO true it hurts.

I do actually agree with you. Even so, the situation has probably skewed everyone's attitudes and sensibilities way out of what they would be normally. At this point, everything the Ferguson police do is wrong, even if it isn't. They should probably be stood down to protect them from fucking up even more.

People used to laugh at what was called "sensitivity training" for American police; yet so much of good policing flows from perception, and police need to start thinking about how things LOOK and not just how to subdue and apprehend "perpetrators". For that matter, so does the military: However much people hate having to have our military operate as occupiers, occupation duty is a big part of warfare and always will be, even in a fairly straightforward fight; we need to make sure that the people assigned occupation duty have the right training and mindset to avoid doing stupid things that enflame the local population, whoever said locals might be at the time.

[Farnhamia]

Pepper spray is for women and all that kung-fu fighting crap is just that, crap. Why go through all that when you can just shoot the guy?

LOL. God, that is SO true it hurts.

I do actually agree with you. Even so, the situation has probably skewed everyone's attitudes and sensibilities way out of what they would be normally. At this point, everything the Ferguson police do is wrong, even if it isn't. They should probably be stood down to protect them from fucking up even more.

People used to laugh at what was called "sensitivity training" for American police; yet so much of good policing flows from perception, and police need to start thinking about how things LOOK and not just how to subdue and apprehend "perpetrators". For that matter, so does the military: However much people hate having to have our military operate as occupiers, occupation duty is a big part of warfare and always will be, even in a fairly straightforward fight; we need to make sure that the people assigned occupation duty have the right training and mindset to avoid doing stupid things that enflame the local population, whoever said locals might be at the time.

I can't help thinking that some of these cops remember watching Raiders of the Lost Ark years ago, the scene where the giant guy with the sword confronts Indiana Jones and he just shoots him (the sword guy just recently died, by the way). The script called for Jones to fight the guy but Harrison Ford wasn't feeling well that day so he asked Spielberg if he could just shoot him and Spielberg thought about it and said, Sure, why not?

[Neutraligon]

Pepper spray is for women and all that kung-fu fighting crap is just that, crap. Why go through all that when you can just shoot the guy?

LOL. God, that is SO true it hurts.

I do actually agree with you. Even so, the situation has probably skewed everyone's attitudes and sensibilities way out of what they would be normally. At this point, everything the Ferguson police do is wrong, even if it isn't. They should probably be stood down to protect them from fucking up even more.

People used to laugh at what was called "sensitivity training" for American police; yet so much of good policing flows from perception, and police need to start thinking about how things LOOK and not just how to subdue and apprehend "perpetrators". For that matter, so does the military: However much people hate having to have our military operate as occupiers, occupation duty is a big part of warfare and always will be, even in a fairly straightforward fight; we need to make sure that the people assigned occupation duty have the right training and mindset to avoid doing stupid things that enflame the local population, whoever said locals might be at the time.

That I completely agree with, especially because video is so common now.

[Farnhamia]

LOL. God, that is SO true it hurts.


People used to laugh at what was called "sensitivity training" for American police; yet so much of good policing flows from perception, and police need to start thinking about how things LOOK and not just how to subdue and apprehend "perpetrators". For that matter, so does the military: However much people hate having to have our military operate as occupiers, occupation duty is a big part of warfare and always will be, even in a fairly straightforward fight; we need to make sure that the people assigned occupation duty have the right training and mindset to avoid doing stupid things that enflame the local population, whoever said locals might be at the time.

That I completely agree with, especially because video is so common now.

Too true. Everyone has a phone and every phone has a camera. Anyone who does something stupid in public - unless it happens in the blink of an eye and even then - can pretty much be assured it will be all over the InterWebs before they have a chance to ... well, to do anything. And the InterWebs do not forgive or forget.

[Alyakia]

when the DoD started handing out military equipment to anyone who asked.

i love this sentence because it sounds like hyperbole but nah that's basically actually how it works

[Farnhamia]

when the DoD started handing out military equipment to anyone who asked.

i love this sentence because it sounds like hyperbole but nah that's basically actually how it works

Indeed. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/09/us/wa ... ments.html <- You want to scroll down a bit to get to the graphics.

[Mavorpen]

when the DoD started handing out military equipment to anyone who asked.

i love this sentence because it sounds like hyperbole but nah that's basically actually how it works

The police chief of Keene, NH actually managed to get an armored tactical vehicle for, and I'm not even shitting you, protecting the town's annual pumpkin festival.

[Farnhamia]

i love this sentence because it sounds like hyperbole but nah that's basically actually how it works

The police chief of Keene, NH actually managed to get an armored tactical vehicle for, and I'm not even shitting you, protecting the town's annual pumpkin festival.

Hey, some of those rural agricultural rivalries are deadly.

[Spreewerke]

If you read the article, the guy brandished a knife, refused to put it down when ordered to do so and basically committed suicide by cop.

You know, this probably falls into the category of justifiable force; yet given where and when this was happening, I have to wonder why the officers didn't split up, put about 5-6' between them, and draw their nightsticks.

I mean, have you seen police nightsticks these days? Most of then are actually tonfas, and trying to attack two guys standing slightly apart armed with tonfas is just asking to get your butt kicked: Turn on either foe and the other one can crack you hard behind your knees and bring you down in an instant. And at that point, once you're on the ground, you're done.

Also, whatever happened to pepper spray? That will fuck up a would-be knife-murderer's day faster than anything I know...

For what it's worth, I have never seen a "tonfa" in my entire life. Every officer I have ever seen has been issued a retractable baton (http://www.tactgear.com/asp.jpg). Flick of the wrist extends it completely. To collapse it, simply kneel down and press it against a concrete/paved surface with force and it will fall into itself. Much smaller of an item to carry on the belt, especially when you need to get in and out of vehicles all day.

[Alien Space Bats]

For what it's worth, I have never seen a "tonfa" in my entire life. Every officer I have ever seen has been issued a retractable baton (http://www.tactgear.com/asp.jpg). Flick of the wrist extends it completely. To collapse it, simply kneel down and press it against a concrete/paved surface with force and it will fall into itself. Much smaller of an item to carry on the belt, especially when you need to get in and out of vehicles all day.

Maybe it's just where I've lived, but I saw them in Albuquerque back in the 80's and saw them in Michigan's Washtenaw County 20 years ago (I still live there today).

In fairness, I don't spend a lot of time around police since I left the restaurant industry in the late 90's, so I've never seen an office carrying one of the retractable models. I've seen them on TV (there's an episode of Leverage where Sterling uses one against Eliot), but we all know TV is not real life (right? RIGHT?!?)

That said, the same thing applies: A shot to the back of the knees with one of those things, and you're going down on the pavement.

[Spirit of Hope]

For what it's worth, I have never seen a "tonfa" in my entire life. Every officer I have ever seen has been issued a retractable baton (http://www.tactgear.com/asp.jpg). Flick of the wrist extends it completely. To collapse it, simply kneel down and press it against a concrete/paved surface with force and it will fall into itself. Much smaller of an item to carry on the belt, especially when you need to get in and out of vehicles all day.

Maybe it's just where I've lived, but I saw them in Albuquerque back in the 80's and saw them in Michigan's Washtenaw County 20 years ago (I still live there today).

In fairness, I don't spend a lot of time around police since I left the restaurant industry in the late 90's, so I've never seen an office carrying one of the retractable models. I've seen them on TV (there's an episode of Leverage where Sterling uses one against Eliot), but we all know TV is not real life (right? RIGHT?!?)

That said, the same thing applies: A shot to the back of the knees with one of those things, and you're going down on the pavement.

But to do that you have to get close to a guy with a knife, which is not the best way to remain uninjured and alive. While it may sound cruel the officers well being in my mind comes before the perpetrators well being.

[Farnhamia]

Maybe it's just where I've lived, but I saw them in Albuquerque back in the 80's and saw them in Michigan's Washtenaw County 20 years ago (I still live there today).

In fairness, I don't spend a lot of time around police since I left the restaurant industry in the late 90's, so I've never seen an office carrying one of the retractable models. I've seen them on TV (there's an episode of Leverage where Sterling uses one against Eliot), but we all know TV is not real life (right? RIGHT?!?)

That said, the same thing applies: A shot to the back of the knees with one of those things, and you're going down on the pavement.

But to do that you have to get close to a guy with a knife, which is not the best way to remain uninjured and alive. While it may sound cruel the officers well being in my mind comes before the perpetrators well being.

What ASB is saying is that with two officers using tonfas or batons, they could be on either side of the knife-wielder and if he turned toward one, the other could take him down. If only one officer is on the scene, he could call for back-up. Shooting should be a last resort.

[Brickistan]

Does anyone here have an issue with the cops using military equipment?

I have no problem with them HAVING it; I think they need to USE it far less often than they do.

I ESPECIALLY have to wonder about the wisdom of using it for CROWD CONTROL. Don't these people ever think of the OPTICS involved in what they do?!? A policeman on the streets in ordinary gear can be both a menacing figure to would-be lawbreakers and a reassuring figure to those who have no such urges; but when police show up for a protest looking like an occupying ARMY, that just SCREAMS "Fuck your rights, we're in charge, so just go put a cork in it." It is instantly provocative and inflammatory.

Of course, I'm sure that the police don't see it that way; they see it as intimidating, sort of in a "We're so badass, nobody will dare step out of line." Yet they forget two things:

1. When Authority fucks up by going too far, intimidation is the wrong response. It screams that Authority cares not that it has fucked up, and that enrages those who feel wronged even more than the original slight.
   
   
2. Overwhelming and intimidating force is useless against the non-violent protestor. Passive, non-violent resistance (or worse, outright civil disobedience) confronts an armed police force with a politically deadly foe, in so far as it turns that force's greatest strength — its overwhelming armed supremacy — into a weakness. It's a kind of socio-political jujitsu that can't be answered with any kind of show of force, because any kind of show of force will just make things worse for Authority.

Someone needs to sit down with police forces and educate them in the logic of non-violence and civil disobedience. The police — and especially the police in America — need their own Bayard Rustin, as protestors got the word about non-violence over 50 years ago.

The problem, IOW, is simply this: The cops are half a century behind the times.

I mostly agree with you. Except on the "having" part.

When you've got a hammer, every problem tends to look like a nail. And when you got all those nice toys, are you really going to just leave them back at the station? Of course not! Especially as, going by some reports I've heard, they're actually required to use it in order to be allowed to keep it.

Going on a slight tangent here...

A while ago I saw a documentary on the history of the Danish police. Quite interesting seeing the development that's happened over the last few hundred years. However, two episodes from more modern times stands out, being major mistakes.

The first was using the police to execute traitors after World War 2. It was a task they weren't trained or equipped to deal with and it left so deep scars on some of the cops that the executions were eventually stopped and the death sentences commuted to prison sentences. Shortly after that, the death penalty was removed entirely.

The second, and possibly worst incident in the history of the Danish police (certainly in post-war peacetime), was the riots that happened on the 18. May, 1993, following the referendum on the Edinburgh agreement. Without going too much into details, the police was caught flatfooted, several officers got into trouble, the whole thing escalated rapidly, and in the end the police drew their pistols and fired 113 shots into the crowd, wounding 11 protesters.

This left the police doing a lot of soul searching as to what happened and why.

Over time, the police arrived at the conclusion that they were going about this whole riot-control business the wrong way. When you give an officer a shield and baton, all he can do is to shield and lash out at opportune moments. So apart from the psychological impact of seeing fully armed officers behind a shield wall (which protesters tend to react badly to) it also left the police in a bind. They could either shield themselves or charge the protesters. But they couldn't actually arrest any subjects as they required dropping the shield and baton, something they were reluctant to do as it left them vulnerable.

How had they ended up being thus armed then? Well, that's a longish story going way back to the hipppies in the seventies, continuing with the squatters in the eighties, and culminating with the anarchists in the nineties. Basically, as the hippy-movement slowly morphed into a squatter-movement, in response to the perceived inequality in Danish society, the police began up-arming themselves in order to deal with this. The need to clear houses of squatters during the eighties, in particular, led to the creation of elite heavily armed (by Danish standards, anyway) groups of officers to deal with such issues (think swat-teams, but without the overwhelming firepower seen in the US). This embittered some of the squatters so much that they slowly morphed into anarchists and anti-establishment groups. And some of these were involved in the riots on the 18. May.

What were the conclusion then?

Surprisingly, it actually led the cops to "down-arm" themselves. The shield and baton were replaced by close fitting body armour which left the arms free. Now the cops could approach a crowd, dart in to arrest unruly elements, and then pull back again. And, as an added bonus, they didn't look nearly as "war like" as before.

The fact that they have started up-arming themselves again over the last decade is a real headscratcher. Or perhaps not, when considering the growing rift between the establishment and the man on the street...

Anyway, point is that, for a while at least, the Danish police actually succeeded in down scaling the intensity of riots by changing their appearance and tactics.

The American police, on the other hand, seems to have only one response to violence - and that's more violence. Yes, I realize that they're in a different situation (a far more fractured and violent society, filled with guns), but I still think there's a lesson to be learned here. When you're dressed up like soldiers and use military hardware, then how are you going to go about your business? How does it make you feel? And how does it make the protesters feel?

Their attitudes may well be, ASB, but they didn't start getting really cool equipment to enforce those attitudes until 2006, when the DoD started handing out military equipment to anyone who asked.

The recent flood of equipment DID in fact come after 2006, but this is a problem that's been building for years.

My wife and I have resolved to go online to Audible to buy and download Radley Balko's recent book, Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America's Police Forces (published last July); I'll pass along a book report in a few days...

Please do.

I've been eyeing that book myself, being interested in the history of how the American police ended up like a para-military force.

[Occupied Deutschland]

I have no problem with them HAVING it; I think they need to USE it far less often than they do.

I ESPECIALLY have to wonder about the wisdom of using it for CROWD CONTROL. Don't these people ever think of the OPTICS involved in what they do?!? A policeman on the streets in ordinary gear can be both a menacing figure to would-be lawbreakers and a reassuring figure to those who have no such urges; but when police show up for a protest looking like an occupying ARMY, that just SCREAMS "Fuck your rights, we're in charge, so just go put a cork in it." It is instantly provocative and inflammatory.

Of course, I'm sure that the police don't see it that way; they see it as intimidating, sort of in a "We're so badass, nobody will dare step out of line." Yet they forget two things:

1. When Authority fucks up by going too far, intimidation is the wrong response. It screams that Authority cares not that it has fucked up, and that enrages those who feel wronged even more than the original slight.
   
   
2. Overwhelming and intimidating force is useless against the non-violent protestor. Passive, non-violent resistance (or worse, outright civil disobedience) confronts an armed police force with a politically deadly foe, in so far as it turns that force's greatest strength — its overwhelming armed supremacy — into a weakness. It's a kind of socio-political jujitsu that can't be answered with any kind of show of force, because any kind of show of force will just make things worse for Authority.

Someone needs to sit down with police forces and educate them in the logic of non-violence and civil disobedience. The police — and especially the police in America — need their own Bayard Rustin, as protestors got the word about non-violence over 50 years ago.

The problem, IOW, is simply this: The cops are half a century behind the times.

I mostly agree with you. Except on the "having" part.

When you've got a hammer, every problem tends to look like a nail. And when you got all those nice toys, are you really going to just leave them back at the station? Of course not! Especially as, going by some reports I've heard, they're actually required to use it in order to be allowed to keep it.
...

I think this is actually one of the major points in 'Rise of the Warrior Cop' (I browsed it briefly at a friend's house when I was staying for a few days, but didn't have a chance to read it all), such equipment despite being free to acquire requires training, maintenance, and justification for continued training and maintenance, which tends to encourage its use in situations which don't warrant it or where it might be viewed as an overreaction. Because otherwise it's just sitting there and there is no benefit to having it.

[Kouralia]

But to do that you have to get close to a guy with a knife, which is not the best way to remain uninjured and alive. While it may sound cruel the officers well being in my mind comes before the perpetrators well being.

What ASB is saying is that with two officers using tonfas or batons, they could be on either side of the knife-wielder and if he turned toward one, the other could take him down. If only one officer is on the scene, he could call for back-up. Shooting should be a last resort.

But he could also be slashed rapidly and fatally - why are you not using guns or tasers if they're available and the suspect has an edged weapon? IIRC Edged Weapons elicit an ARV response from UK Police, where shooting is the last resort only if an Officer's life is in danger. Hell, two police on their own tackling a guy with a fucking car key can result in serious injury to the Officers.

[Spirit of Hope]

But to do that you have to get close to a guy with a knife, which is not the best way to remain uninjured and alive. While it may sound cruel the officers well being in my mind comes before the perpetrators well being.

What ASB is saying is that with two officers using tonfas or batons, they could be on either side of the knife-wielder and if he turned toward one, the other could take him down. If only one officer is on the scene, he could call for back-up. Shooting should be a last resort.

The problem is as others have noted that even with two officers and batons you can't be certain what the subject is going to do. If you are standing next to each other you can support one another but aren't able to get at the subjects back. If one of you approaches the subject from behind it limits the options of the officer in front and means that they can't directly support one another. This is further hampered by the fact that the officers likely won't initiate, the subject does because the officers have to coordinate with one another (have you ever read Star Ship Trooper? There is a great scene that shows the problem of two people working against one).

Additionally this wouldn't really work in the video we are discussing, the cops have literally just stepped out of their car when the confront the suspect. If they want to spread out they have to move around the car, which either means approaching the subject (going in front of the car) or losing sight of the subject and/or losing the ability to support your partner (going behind the car). Both are bad choices for obvious reasons.

I think the officers should have tasers for just such a situation, the problem is tasers have a some rather bad publicity, not all unfounded, and have been connected with health issues. Police Forces are understandably wary of issuing them more broadly.

[The Lone Alliance]

The problem is as others have noted that even with two officers and batons you can't be certain what the subject is going to do. If you are standing next to each other you can support one another but aren't able to get at the subjects back. If one of you approaches the subject from behind it limits the options of the officer in front and means that they can't directly support one another. This is further hampered by the fact that the officers likely won't initiate, the subject does because the officers have to coordinate with one another (have you ever read Star Ship Trooper? There is a great scene that shows the problem of two people working against one).

Additionally this wouldn't really work in the video we are discussing, the cops have literally just stepped out of their car when the confront the suspect. If they want to spread out they have to move around the car, which either means approaching the subject (going in front of the car) or losing sight of the subject and/or losing the ability to support your partner (going behind the car). Both are bad choices for obvious reasons.

And in that sort of situation they most likely weren't thinking on a joint Baton action against him anyway if they really were ambushed like that.

I think the officers should have tasers for just such a situation, the problem is tasers have a some rather bad publicity, not all unfounded, and have been connected with health issues. Police Forces are understandably wary of issuing them more broadly.

Good point.
Could you imagine the reaction if they had accidentally electrocuted the teen to death because they weren't trained in it?

I have to think it'd be even worse because then they'd get accused of being excessively cruel.

Either way, I'm not sure how it's going to end, if it really did happen the way it's being described then it's going to be hard to blame the cops, but someone is going to have to take the fall.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Whatever other names may or may not be doing, Nathi says 'Thou Shalt Not Troll'. So let's stick to the topic, refrain from appearing to act like a horse's backside, and behave thy damn selves before anyone has to come down on your party with the full Wrath of Mod.

Because really, no one likes that. Removed posts to be reviewed all the same.

[Ashmoria]

oh my goodness the cop never even submitted an incident report.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/michae ... rt-n186431