Pagan/Polytheistic Discussion Thread: By the Gods!

[Lady Victory]

I think that they think having faith is equal to mental illness, and getting rid of it is also equal to getting rid of homophobia and racism, said all we need to know.

Its clear they're not here to discuss in good faith... I'm not Pagan myself, but I don't understand why atheist like that are so determined to get rid of religion.

Usually it's because of a bad personal experience with religion during childhood which they allow to cloud their judgement.

I blame fundamentalism.

[Resilient Acceleration]

Funnily enough, I think this is why my maternal grandparents converted to Islam in the first place. My grandfather specifically happened to be a state public servant of a quite high echelon, so his rivals started spreading gossips about him being a non-monotheistic infidel who don't do prayers (especially since he, like many animists, puts "Islam" on his ID card). Though, it was also the de-Benny-zation period (the purging of the General Benny Moerdani's influence from Suharto's government), where Suharto cozies up with the "green" faction of the army and intellectual Muslims, at a time of increased Islamic conservativism. But since they seemed pretty satisfied with themselves after hiring a Quranic teacher and eventually converting to Islam, then who cares.

Rivalry is quite nasty for that time. My maternal grandpa is a non-practicing Muslim (mom mentioned she never see him pray) who worked as the head of some department in regional level, and mom said she can't count how many attempts his rivals/enemies tried to frame him. One of them succeeded in framing him for bribery, that led to his downfall (and indirectly, death, as he fell sick after that).

Sorry that happened to yours. That thing shouldn't happen to anyone.

Does the rivalry extend to the spiritual realm, i.e. santet and all? Islam specifically is unique as it accomodates animism by framing spirits and local gods as genies, allowing Islam to be accepted rapidly by kebatinan believers (including my grandparents). I.e., according to Islam, the animistic believes ARE true and the traditional local gods DO exist (and they are actually deceitful genies created by Allah) and they DO actually have powers that can be utilized, Islam just banned people from actually using them. Because of this, santet and other mystical voodoo beliefs are widespread throughout all levels of society. Every cases of disease, cancer, or even lice infection are taken as a sign of interdimensional attack by scheming rivals, every gift that comes to the house are views with suspucion. My mom actually found somone throwing a ball of paper containing suspicious arabic words inscribed within it to her house. In another case, after my uncle experience a non-serious traffic accident, my grandfather came to my mother's dorm (she was enrolled to a university far from her hometown) to spread somekind of mystical salt in front of her dorm room to "protect her from hostile spirits."

[Suriyanakhon]

Rivalry is quite nasty for that time. My maternal grandpa is a non-practicing Muslim (mom mentioned she never see him pray) who worked as the head of some department in regional level, and mom said she can't count how many attempts his rivals/enemies tried to frame him. One of them succeeded in framing him for bribery, that led to his downfall (and indirectly, death, as he fell sick after that).

Sorry that happened to yours. That thing shouldn't happen to anyone.

Does the rivalry extend to the spiritual realm, i.e. santet and all? Islam specifically is unique as it accomodates animism by framing spirits and local gods as genies, allowing Islam to be accepted rapidly by kebatinan believers (including my grandparents). I.e. the animistic believes ARE true and the traditional spirits DO exist and DO actually have powers that can be utilized, Islam just banned people from actually using them. Because of this, santet and other mystical voodoo beliefs are widespread throughout all levels of society. Every cases of disease, cancer, or even lice infection are taken as a sign of interdimensional attack by scheming rivals, every gift that comes to the house are views with suspucion. My mom actually found somone throwing a ball of paper containing suspicious arabic words inscribed within it to her house. In another case, after my uncle experience a non-serious traffic accident, my grandfather came to my mother's dorm (she was enrolled to a university far from her hometown) to spread somekind of mystical salt in front of her dorm room to "protect her from hostile spirits."

This sort of reminds me of something I once heard about a researcher asking a Lao woman why she converted to Christianity, and she replied it was because she was now safe from phi (spirits) because she put her faith in the greatest phi of all, the Holy Spirit.

[Resilient Acceleration]

Does the rivalry extend to the spiritual realm, i.e. santet and all? Islam specifically is unique as it accomodates animism by framing spirits and local gods as genies, allowing Islam to be accepted rapidly by kebatinan believers (including my grandparents). I.e. the animistic believes ARE true and the traditional spirits DO exist and DO actually have powers that can be utilized, Islam just banned people from actually using them. Because of this, santet and other mystical voodoo beliefs are widespread throughout all levels of society. Every cases of disease, cancer, or even lice infection are taken as a sign of interdimensional attack by scheming rivals, every gift that comes to the house are views with suspucion. My mom actually found somone throwing a ball of paper containing suspicious arabic words inscribed within it to her house. In another case, after my uncle experience a non-serious traffic accident, my grandfather came to my mother's dorm (she was enrolled to a university far from her hometown) to spread somekind of mystical salt in front of her dorm room to "protect her from hostile spirits."

This sort of reminds me of something I once heard about a researcher asking a Lao woman why she converted to Christianity, and she replied it was because she was now safe from phi (spirits) because she put her faith in the greatest phi of all, the Holy Spirit.

I can see how monotheistic religions that "accomodates" paganistic beliefs—by reframing the previous gods as genies or incarnation of Satan—can be very appealing. After all, I was taught as a kid that Quranic verses such as the Chair Verse or al-Ikhlas have strong magical properties that can kill and melt hostile genies into a pool of dead ectoplasm, and was told to read them if I found myself scared of things in the dark. If you believe that your family and house is under a constant bombardment of literal hostile magic from your rivals, turning to an omnipotent Allah for protection can very comforting. Hell, I think I'm starting to suspect that this is a major overlooked reason on how Islam itself was able to spread under Muhammad, as witchcraft and magic attacks is of a major concern to past societies and Islam gives a very simple yet incredibly effective solution to that.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Its clear they're not here to discuss in good faith... I'm not Pagan myself, but I don't understand why atheist like that are so determined to get rid of religion.

Usually it's because of a bad personal experience with religion during childhood which they allow to cloud their judgement.

I blame fundamentalism.

I was that way for a while as a teenager tbh. I grew incredibly disillusioned with Christianity and became an exceptionally edgy militant atheist before mellowing out and then eventually got into polytheism.

[Suriyanakhon]

Usually it's because of a bad personal experience with religion during childhood which they allow to cloud their judgement.

I blame fundamentalism.

I was that way for a while as a teenager tbh. I grew incredibly disillusioned with Christianity and became an exceptionally edgy militant atheist before mellowing out and then eventually got into polytheism.

Ngl if I get reincarnated in hell, it's probably just gonna be me forced to reread my teenage atheist takes.

[Albrenia]

I'm pretty big on Secularism where no religious belief or lack thereof is pushed in front of any other, and we all remain peaceful towards each other. The fringe benefit of cool cultural and religious events sometimes giving me free holidays and stuff to do is nice too.

[Suriyanakhon]

My girlfriend has faith that I won't burn down the house whenever she leaves.

That's true love, right there.

Yes, unironically, I am the clumsiest person I've ever met.

[Auzkhia]

My spiritual beliefs are complex but I am both a Greco-Roman pagan and a witch. It's kinda eclectic but not Wicca, which primarily takes from Celtic and Germanic traditions. I primarily work with Artemis/Diana, Apollo, and Hecate. As they best represent the abstractions I believe in and derive spiritual meaning and power from. I don't think I am particularly theistic but not sure if I am still atheist. If I had to label it, maybe non-theist (not all religions are theistic) or pantheist and the Gods are personification of magical forces, metaphysical and naturally physical. I just happen to reference most of Hellenist religious traditions as a base and have found useful to fully dechristianize myself. Even ancient Greeks and Romans never had one single religious canon for their beliefs. But I am not a reconstructionist.

[Muzehnaya]

This sort of reminds me of something I once heard about a researcher asking a Lao woman why she converted to Christianity, and she replied it was because she was now safe from phi (spirits) because she put her faith in the greatest phi of all, the Holy Spirit.

I can see how monotheistic religions that "accomodates" paganistic beliefs—by reframing the previous gods as genies or incarnation of Satan—can be very appealing. After all, I was taught as a kid that Quranic verses such as the Chair Verse or al-Ikhlas have strong magical properties that can kill and melt hostile genies into a pool of dead ectoplasm, and was told to read them if I found myself scared of things in the dark. If you believe that your family and house is under a constant bombardment of literal hostile magic from your rivals, turning to an omnipotent Allah for protection can very comforting. Hell, I think I'm starting to suspect that this is a major overlooked reason on how Islam itself was able to spread under Muhammad, as witchcraft and magic attacks is of a major concern to past societies and Islam gives a very simple yet incredibly effective solution to that.

Now that you mention it, you are right that Islam gave a very simple solution to the problem of magic. While I don't believe the verses themselves had "magical powers" per se, we were taught to say the last two surahs of the Qur'an before we went to sleep, which are essentially prayers seeking protection from jinn, humans, and all types of evil magic.

[Washington Resistance Army]

My spiritual beliefs are complex but I am both a Greco-Roman pagan and a witch. It's kinda eclectic but not Wicca, which primarily takes from Celtic and Germanic traditions. I primarily work with Artemis/Diana, Apollo, and Hecate. As they best represent the abstractions I believe in and derive spiritual meaning and power from. I don't think I am particularly theistic but not sure if I am still atheist. If I had to label it, maybe non-theist (not all religions are theistic) or pantheist and the Gods are personification of magical forces, metaphysical and naturally physical. I just happen to reference most of Hellenist religious traditions as a base and have found useful to fully dechristianize myself. Even ancient Greeks and Romans never had one single religious canon for their beliefs. But I am not a reconstructionist.

Tbf ancient Hellenism was moving in the direction of an orthodoxic canon before it was outlawed. Julian especially laid a lot of the groundwork for it, and it's tragic his rule was so short.

[Suriyanakhon]

My spiritual beliefs are complex but I am both a Greco-Roman pagan and a witch. It's kinda eclectic but not Wicca, which primarily takes from Celtic and Germanic traditions. I primarily work with Artemis/Diana, Apollo, and Hecate. As they best represent the abstractions I believe in and derive spiritual meaning and power from. I don't think I am particularly theistic but not sure if I am still atheist. If I had to label it, maybe non-theist (not all religions are theistic) or pantheist and the Gods are personification of magical forces, metaphysical and naturally physical. I just happen to reference most of Hellenist religious traditions as a base and have found useful to fully dechristianize myself. Even ancient Greeks and Romans never had one single religious canon for their beliefs. But I am not a reconstructionist.

Tbf ancient Hellenism was moving in the direction of an orthodoxic canon before it was outlawed. Julian especially laid a lot of the groundwork for it, and it's tragic his rule was so short.

Against the Galileans was apparently such a powerful tract that it shook the faith of quite a few Christians.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Tbf ancient Hellenism was moving in the direction of an orthodoxic canon before it was outlawed. Julian especially laid a lot of the groundwork for it, and it's tragic his rule was so short.

Against the Galileans was apparently such a powerful tract that it shook the faith of quite a few Christians.

Amusingly enough the Christian author who wrote a rebuttal to it, and thus is the source of the remaining bits and pieces, admits he left out the strongest arguments Julian made and doesn't even try to counter them.

[Auzkhia]

On that topic, I consider my self primarily Roman. I heard, and this may be misinformation, that the Romans believed that foreign gods were just as real as Roman ones, and that has been a sticking point for me. I am currently trying my best to synchronize most foreign polytheist ideas into my beliefs from a Roman perspective because I cannot believe that one culture is the only one to know truth about the gods. Sometimes I feel bad, that I am participating in cultural appropriation and I try my best to be careful.

This is what you're referring to, I believe?

The Greeks and Romans often did try to compare foreign deities to their own. Thor, for example, was interpreted as either Jupiter or Hercules by the Romans due to the similarities he possessed with both figures. 'Same god, different name' was how they approached it.

Indeed, Thursday in Latin is Jupiter's Day

The days of the weeks are still named after the Gods and going from Germanic to Latin you can see the conflations and comparisons.

Tyr, Odin, Thor, and Frigga compare to Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, and Venus. Saturday is Saturn's day, and I'll let you guess what Sunday and Monday refer to.

My spiritual beliefs are complex but I am both a Greco-Roman pagan and a witch. It's kinda eclectic but not Wicca, which primarily takes from Celtic and Germanic traditions. I primarily work with Artemis/Diana, Apollo, and Hecate. As they best represent the abstractions I believe in and derive spiritual meaning and power from. I don't think I am particularly theistic but not sure if I am still atheist. If I had to label it, maybe non-theist (not all religions are theistic) or pantheist and the Gods are personification of magical forces, metaphysical and naturally physical. I just happen to reference most of Hellenist religious traditions as a base and have found useful to fully dechristianize myself. Even ancient Greeks and Romans never had one single religious canon for their beliefs. But I am not a reconstructionist.

Tbf ancient Hellenism was moving in the direction of an orthodoxic canon before it was outlawed. Julian especially laid a lot of the groundwork for it, and it's tragic his rule was so short.

Julian was based, and by then Rome was trying to patch things up even by then they were no longer to be a republic.

[Resilient Acceleration]

I can see how monotheistic religions that "accomodates" paganistic beliefs—by reframing the previous gods as genies or incarnation of Satan—can be very appealing. After all, I was taught as a kid that Quranic verses such as the Chair Verse or al-Ikhlas have strong magical properties that can kill and melt hostile genies into a pool of dead ectoplasm, and was told to read them if I found myself scared of things in the dark. If you believe that your family and house is under a constant bombardment of literal hostile magic from your rivals, turning to an omnipotent Allah for protection can very comforting. Hell, I think I'm starting to suspect that this is a major overlooked reason on how Islam itself was able to spread under Muhammad, as witchcraft and magic attacks is of a major concern to past societies and Islam gives a very simple yet incredibly effective solution to that.

Now that you mention it, you are right that Islam gave a very simple solution to the problem of magic. While I don't believe the verses themselves had "magical powers" per se, we were taught to say the last two surahs of the Qur'an before we went to sleep, which are essentially prayers seeking protection from jinn, humans, and all types of evil magic.

To be fair, ask any knowledgeable Muslim here directly and they will say that it's not the verses themselves, it's God that will act to protect you from evil. But the way the Quranic verses are marketed by popular commercial ulemas here to their followers are, to be honest, no different than how people used to market protective amulets.

[Samudera Darussalam]

Rivalry is quite nasty for that time. My maternal grandpa is a non-practicing Muslim (mom mentioned she never see him pray) who worked as the head of some department in regional level, and mom said she can't count how many attempts his rivals/enemies tried to frame him. One of them succeeded in framing him for bribery, that led to his downfall (and indirectly, death, as he fell sick after that).

Sorry that happened to yours. That thing shouldn't happen to anyone.

Does the rivalry extend to the spiritual realm, i.e. santet and all?

I guess not, since his illness was typical of that people who gets too much stress, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility. Before that happened, my grandparents forbade their children to receive any gift from strangers that got delivered at their home. One of them still got slipped up tho one day.

Islam specifically is unique as it accomodates animism by framing spirits and local gods as genies, allowing Islam to be accepted rapidly by kebatinan believers (including my grandparents). I.e., according to Islam, the animistic believes ARE true and the traditional local gods DO exist (and they are actually deceitful genies created by Allah) and they DO actually have powers that can be utilized, Islam just banned people from actually using them. Because of this, santet and other mystical voodoo beliefs are widespread throughout all levels of society. Every cases of disease, cancer, or even lice infection are taken as a sign of interdimensional attack by scheming rivals, every gift that comes to the house are views with suspucion. My mom actually found somone throwing a ball of paper containing suspicious arabic words inscribed within it to her house. In another case, after my uncle experience a non-serious traffic accident, my grandfather came to my mother's dorm (she was enrolled to a university far from her hometown) to spread somekind of mystical salt in front of her dorm room to "protect her from hostile spirits."

I....never think about it that way, but it seems so. Even in my supposedly 'modern' Muslim family, there are still traces of the old beliefs that got carried into the culture. Mom used to tell me that when I was little, if I wasn't tucked into bed before maghrib, my baby self would cry his eyes out till dawn. They went to some people and got the advice to spray some salt around my room in order to ward 'them' off. My parents did it.

One of the benefits in having a multiethnic family is that you get to experience more than one culture, and from both of my parents' culture, I've also heard stories that my parents believe to be real. Such as that 'orang bunian' exist and how you can meet them in the market, walking among humans, on specific days. Complete with the whole money turned into leaves thing. Since I've yet to experience it myself, I kind of think that they are interesting, but have no real conviction to believe that they are really there.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Does the rivalry extend to the spiritual realm, i.e. santet and all? Islam specifically is unique as it accomodates animism by framing spirits and local gods as genies, allowing Islam to be accepted rapidly by kebatinan believers (including my grandparents). I.e. the animistic believes ARE true and the traditional spirits DO exist and DO actually have powers that can be utilized, Islam just banned people from actually using them. Because of this, santet and other mystical voodoo beliefs are widespread throughout all levels of society. Every cases of disease, cancer, or even lice infection are taken as a sign of interdimensional attack by scheming rivals, every gift that comes to the house are views with suspucion. My mom actually found somone throwing a ball of paper containing suspicious arabic words inscribed within it to her house. In another case, after my uncle experience a non-serious traffic accident, my grandfather came to my mother's dorm (she was enrolled to a university far from her hometown) to spread somekind of mystical salt in front of her dorm room to "protect her from hostile spirits."

This sort of reminds me of something I once heard about a researcher asking a Lao woman why she converted to Christianity, and she replied it was because she was now safe from phi (spirits) because she put her faith in the greatest phi of all, the Holy Spirit.

I'd laugh my ass off if a pan suddenly flew off the wall in her house and smashed through a window. It would be the greatest supernatural "are you sure about that?" ever.

[Insaanistan]

Rivalry is quite nasty for that time. My maternal grandpa is a non-practicing Muslim (mom mentioned she never see him pray) who worked as the head of some department in regional level, and mom said she can't count how many attempts his rivals/enemies tried to frame him. One of them succeeded in framing him for bribery, that led to his downfall (and indirectly, death, as he fell sick after that).

Sorry that happened to yours. That thing shouldn't happen to anyone.

Does the rivalry extend to the spiritual realm, i.e. santet and all? Islam specifically is unique as it accomodates animism by framing spirits and local gods as genies, allowing Islam to be accepted rapidly by kebatinan believers (including my grandparents). I.e., according to Islam, the animistic believes ARE true and the traditional local gods DO exist (and they are actually deceitful genies created by Allah) and they DO actually have powers that can be utilized, Islam just banned people from actually using them. Because of this, santet and other mystical voodoo beliefs are widespread throughout all levels of society. Every cases of disease, cancer, or even lice infection are taken as a sign of interdimensional attack by scheming rivals, every gift that comes to the house are views with suspucion. My mom actually found somone throwing a ball of paper containing suspicious arabic words inscribed within it to her house. In another case, after my uncle experience a non-serious traffic accident, my grandfather came to my mother's dorm (she was enrolled to a university far from her hometown) to spread somekind of mystical salt in front of her dorm room to "protect her from hostile spirits."

I also see this among many Africans. For example, Tuaregs have a group of spirits called Kel Asuf that they call upon that are basically good jinn who will do bad if you make them mad, which is almost shirk IMO.
Then the Hausa have the bori spirits which basically are evil jinn.

Intense fear of evil spirits are quite prevalent. My mom is the most superstitious person I know (note she grew up in a village).
Me, I see jinn as real but their powers often overestimated by many cultures and so many Muslims view them as these ultra powerful beings. I see them more as creatures that have powers that we have but aren’t that, creatures that like many scientific things we can observe the affects of but not actually see.

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

There is no empirical evidence to suggest that Communism is remotely feasible. And yet, Communists have faith that it is.

Faith is not a religious monopoly. Everyone has faith. Atheists have faith. You have faith. You have faith when you believe you can make it one more mile on an empty tank of gas, you have faith when you believe that your lotto card will have the winning numbers, you have faith when you believe the girl you like will say yes when you ask her out. Everyone has faith; and faith is in everything. That religious faith happens to place belief in cosmic, metaphysical, primordial, interdimensional, supernatural, or universal concepts does not make it any more absurd than the faith you regularly and subconsciously display in every day life.

My girlfriend has faith that I won't burn down the house whenever she leaves.

If she found you playing with matches or expressing an interest in pyromania, she would likely be less convinced of that statement. Therefore, her judgement is based on some form of rational consideration; namely, that it is most likely that someone who has shown no indication of being a pyromaniac is not a pyromaniac. The other things Lady Victory mentioned are just types of psychological biases. In the crudest sense, they are just biased ways of reasoning rationally: you calculate too optimistically your car's mileage, or you read too much into a lingering touch from the girl. For communism specifically, I think communists would not be so quick to say that they have no empirical evidence. They've got mountains of psychological papers on fundamental human nature they like to show.

Admittedly, I know very little about theology so I'm likely wrong, but at least in my limited understanding, I'm not sure religious faith is so simplistic as those things. As I understand, it carries with it a fundamentally "irrational" (not intended as a pejorative, I mean based on an entirely different epistemological framework) element.

[Insaanistan]

Many Hindus would object to being called “polytheist”. Many Hindus are atheistic or monotheistic.

[Lady Victory]

Many Hindus would object to being called “polytheist”. Many Hindus are atheistic or monotheistic.

"Atheistic Hindus"? What? How is that possible? Aren't the Hindu gods kind of important to Hinduism? How can you be a Hindu but not believe in the Hindu gods?

[Suriyanakhon]

Iranian media spreads misinformation claiming that Hindus in India are abandoning their deities.

[Thermodolia]

Many Hindus would object to being called “polytheist”. Many Hindus are atheistic or monotheistic.

What the fuck? Have you ever met a hindu? Or lived near them?

[Nevertopia]

How can ya'll be celebrating non-abrahamic gods without mentioning the granddaddy of religion itself Ahura Mazda?

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

Many Hindus would object to being called “polytheist”. Many Hindus are atheistic or monotheistic.

What the fuck? Have you ever met a hindu? Or lived near them?

Hinduism can be monotheistic in that some sects worship a single god to the total exclusion of other Hindu gods. Hindu atheism is significantly more complex, but in general, it means accepting the accuracy of the Vedas while rejecting the actual existence of the gods named within (way more complex than that), and rejecting claims that the Vedas were divinely inspired and/or written by gods.