Are religion and science compatible?

[Estanglia]

No, because science has not proven a God exists.

The central claim of Catholicism, I'd argue, is "God is Love." So allow me to logically prove the existence of a God which not only exists, but "is Love."

The universe has a cause. If you're not willing to accept that, I don't know what to tell you. This cause must either be contingent, or non-contingent. Contingent things require a cause, non-contingent things do not. If the cause of the universe is contingent, it requires a cause, which in turn must either be contingent or non-contingent. Eventually, one must come to a non-contingent cause.

For the rest of the required logic, I'll copy a proof I put forward earlier in this thread.

A non-contingent being would be non-contingent because it is an explanation unto itself, and thus does not require a cause, except itself. Being an explanation unto itself, and predating all other things. there is nothing to limit such a being. As such, a non-contingent being, or God, would be infinite, omnipotent, and omniscient, since there is no limit to His knowledge or power. Since He is infinite, and omnipotent, He cannot possibly have anything to gain from doing anything, since He Himself has already fulfilled the highest greatness and glory which can be. Therefore, God acted out of willing the good of other beings, or love. Since He is the very essence of being, He cannot act out of anything outside or above himself, since no such thing exist. So for God to act out of love, He Himself must be love. As such, God is love.

Oh, this again.

I would love, love if you would actually address all the criticisms of this """proof""" you present.

Because you do this every time: trot this shit out as proof, it gets destroyed (as it should), you ignore all criticisms then 5-10 pages you re-post it acting as if it hasn't been defeated before.

[Deacarsia]

Oh man, you schooled me with that one...except you forgot two things. First, the majority of the Christian tradition was passed down orally before it was written down, and even as you noted we have fragments of nearly contemporaneous written evidence which means there was a whole lot more that was written down and then lost in the ensuring centuries. Numerous reputable scholars have dated the original authors of the Gospels to within a generation of Jesus' contemporaries' lives and the Pauline letters date shortly thereafter.

Second...why in the hell would anyone in the nearly 400 years after Christ's death, in the face of some of the most brutal state-ordered persecutions in history with no end in sight, still preserve and maintain these letters and Gospels, and be willing to die and suffer horribly for them, and then despite this persecution Christianity won against paganism and became the world's largest religion?

Good question.

[Albrenia]

For the rest of the required logic, I'll copy a proof I put forward earlier in this thread.

A non-contingent being would be non-contingent because it is an explanation unto itself, and thus does not require a cause, except itself. Being an explanation unto itself, and predating all other things. there is nothing to limit such a being. As such, a non-contingent being, or God, would be infinite, omnipotent, and omniscient, since there is no limit to His knowledge or power. Since He is infinite, and omnipotent, He cannot possibly have anything to gain from doing anything, since He Himself has already fulfilled the highest greatness and glory which can be. Therefore, God acted out of willing the good of other beings, or love. Since He is the very essence of being, He cannot act out of anything outside or above himself, since no such thing exist. So for God to act out of love, He Himself must be love. As such, God is love.

The creation of the universe is one point where science becomes... hard. We're not even sure the basic rules of cause-and-effect apply before the Big Bang, and we have no way of knowing at the moment (to my knowledge).

So yeah, common sense logic rules don't really apply to a timeless, infinitely dense, infinitely small point which is both near-infinite and impossibly small at the same time.

[Celritannia]

Oh, I have tried getting an answer.

No, you have not. All you have done is demonstrate both profound ignorance of how science works as well as incredible arrogance as to you own understanding.

I have tried, he failed to prove evidence when I asked for it.
It isn't arrogance, nor is it ignorance.
I used the scientific principle to counter his attempt to prove a virgin birth happened via the same scientific principle..

[Estanglia]

This can be applied to any religion.

No, it can only be applied to a God which is love.

So, I create a new religion. I'll call it religion x because I'm lazy.

This new religion creates a God, and they say this God is love.

Using your own argument, I have proven my own God, not yours.

[Celritannia]

https://michaelsherlockauthor.wordpress ... nuscripts/

Oh man, you schooled me with that one...except you forgot two things. First, the majority of the Christian tradition was passed down orally before it was written down, and even as you noted we have fragments of nearly contemporaneous written evidence which means there was a whole lot more that was written down and then lost in the ensuring centuries. Numerous reputable scholars have dated the original authors of the Gospels to within a generation of Jesus' contemporaries' lives and the Pauline letters date shortly thereafter.

Second...why in the hell would anyone in the nearly 400 years after Christ's death, in the face of some of the most brutal state-ordered persecutions in history with no end in sight, still preserve and maintain these letters and Gospels, and be willing to die and suffer horribly for them, and then despite this unbelievable persecution Christianity won against paganism and became the world's largest religion? There isn't a single religion in history that has had this kind of experience and survived and become the dominant faith of an entire region of the planet.

Do you know how Christianity became one of the largest religions?
Imperialistic conquests.
Latin America isn't catholic simply because it wanted to be. The Spanish were brutal overlords who forced conversions.
You cannot use "Christians were persecuted" when Christians persecuted people for not being Christian for a 1,000 years nearly.

[Estanglia]

Oh man, you schooled me with that one...except you forgot two things. First, the majority of the Christian tradition was passed down orally before it was written down, and even as you noted we have fragments of nearly contemporaneous written evidence which means there was a whole lot more that was written down and then lost in the ensuring centuries. Numerous reputable scholars have dated the original authors of the Gospels to within a generation of Jesus' contemporaries' lives and the Pauline letters date shortly thereafter.

Second...why in the hell would anyone in the nearly 400 years after Christ's death, in the face of some of the most brutal state-ordered persecutions in history with no end in sight, still preserve and maintain these letters and Gospels, and be willing to die and suffer horribly for them, and then despite this unbelievable persecution Christianity won against paganism and became the world's largest religion? There isn't a single religion in history that has had this kind of experience and survived and become the dominant faith of an entire region of the planet.

Do you know how Christianity became one of the largest religions?

Imperialistic conquests.
Latin America isn't catholic simply because it wanted to be. The Spanish were brutal overlords who forced conversions.

There's also the fact that widespread belief in an idea doesn't suddenly make that idea correct, nor is proof of that idea being correct.

See: that time most of us believed wacky shit about [Insert basically anything that has been around for centuries].

[Albrenia]

https://michaelsherlockauthor.wordpress ... nuscripts/

Oh man, you schooled me with that one...except you forgot two things. First, the majority of the Christian tradition was passed down orally before it was written down, and even as you noted we have fragments of nearly contemporaneous written evidence which means there was a whole lot more that was written down and then lost in the ensuring centuries. Numerous reputable scholars have dated the original authors of the Gospels to within a generation of Jesus' contemporaries' lives and the Pauline letters date shortly thereafter.

Second...why in the hell would anyone in the nearly 400 years after Christ's death, in the face of some of the most brutal state-ordered persecutions in history with no end in sight, still preserve and maintain these letters and Gospels, and be willing to die and suffer horribly for them, and then despite this unbelievable persecution Christianity won against paganism and became the world's largest religion? There isn't a single religion in history that has had this kind of experience and survived and become the dominant faith of an entire region of the planet.

Faith is a powerful thing, and the people keeping to dearly-held sacred traditions will often face death and torment to keep them. As to how it grew so large, having a particularly powerful and convincing message and an Emperor taking it up as the state religion (because of a dream, I believe) also helped.

Then the whole intentional and systematic spreading of the religion by peace and by force explains how it covered the Earth as much as it has.

[Nakena]

Oh man, you schooled me with that one...except you forgot two things. First, the majority of the Christian tradition was passed down orally before it was written down, and even as you noted we have fragments of nearly contemporaneous written evidence which means there was a whole lot more that was written down and then lost in the ensuring centuries. Numerous reputable scholars have dated the original authors of the Gospels to within a generation of Jesus' contemporaries' lives and the Pauline letters date shortly thereafter.

Second...why in the hell would anyone in the nearly 400 years after Christ's death, in the face of some of the most brutal state-ordered persecutions in history with no end in sight, still preserve and maintain these letters and Gospels, and be willing to die and suffer horribly for them, and then despite this unbelievable persecution Christianity won against paganism and became the world's largest religion? There isn't a single religion in history that has had this kind of experience and survived and become the dominant faith of an entire region of the planet.

Faith is a powerful thing, and the people keeping to dearly-held sacred traditions will often face death and torment to keep them. As to how it grew so large, having a particularly powerful and convincing message and an Emperor taking it up as the state religion (because of a dream, I believe) also helped.

Yes he had a vision that told him that in this sign (of christianity) the would be victorious.

[Vetalia]

Do you know how Christianity became one of the largest religions?
Imperialistic conquests.
Latin America isn't catholic simply because it wanted to be. The Spanish were brutal overlords who forced conversions.
You cannot use "Christians were persecuted" when Christians persecuted people for not being Christian for a 1,000 years nearly.

Wrong, I'm not talking about the conquests of Latin America or other colonial nations or even the expansion of Christianity under Charlemagne or other the Teutonic Crusades during the Middle Ages. I'm talking about the years during the Roman Empire when this strange cult from Judea became one of the largest religions in the Roman world despite centuries of brutal repression to the point where its leaders actually converted to the faith and established it as the state religion.

How did that happen?

[New Paine]

Religion is belief without evidence. Science is the antithesis of that. So, no they are not.

[Albrenia]

Do you know how Christianity became one of the largest religions?
Imperialistic conquests.
Latin America isn't catholic simply because it wanted to be. The Spanish were brutal overlords who forced conversions.
You cannot use "Christians were persecuted" when Christians persecuted people for not being Christian for a 1,000 years nearly.

Wrong, I'm not talking about the conquests of Latin America or other colonial nations or even the expansion of Christianity under Charlemagne or other the Teutonic Crusades during the Middle Ages. I'm talking about the years during the Roman Empire when this strange cult from Judea became one of the largest religions in the Roman world despite centuries of brutal repression to the point where its leaders actually converted to the faith and established it as the state religion.

How did that happen?

The faithful during those harsh times were true believers who held onto their faith at all costs. People even today refuse to abandon their faith (both Christian and otherwise) under threat of death and torment - humans are weird like that.

[Celritannia]

Do you know how Christianity became one of the largest religions?
Imperialistic conquests.
Latin America isn't catholic simply because it wanted to be. The Spanish were brutal overlords who forced conversions.
You cannot use "Christians were persecuted" when Christians persecuted people for not being Christian for a 1,000 years nearly.

Wrong, I'm not talking about the conquests of Latin America or other colonial nations or even the expansion of Christianity under Charlemagne or other the Teutonic Crusades during the Middle Ages. I'm talking about the years during the Roman Empire when this strange cult from Judea became one of the largest religions in the Roman world despite centuries of brutal repression to the point where its leaders actually converted to the faith and established it as the state religion.

How did that happen?

You mean after the fall of the Western Roman Empire.
Eastern Rome was still functioning until the conquest of Constantinople.

Because Constantine saw a vision, and his soldiers followed.
Although Christianity did not become the state religion of Rome due to too many pagans living within their borders still.
But the Empire's conversion to Christianity would not have happened without the well-connected road system throughout the empire.
Years after Constantine, successive Emperors forced their pagan citizens to convert.

The Codex Theodosianus (Eng. Theodosian Code) was a compilation of the laws of the Roman Empire under the Christian emperors since 312. A commission was established by Theodosius II and his co-emperor Valentinian III on 26 March 429[5][6] and the compilation was published by a constitution of 15 February 438. It went into force in the eastern and western parts of the empire on 1 January 439.[5]

"It is Our will that all the peoples who are ruled by the administration of Our Clemency shall practice that religion which the divine Peter the Apostle transmitted to the Romans.... The rest, whom We adjudge demented and insane, shall sustain the infamy of heretical dogmas, their meeting places shall not receive the name of churches, and they shall be smitten first by divine vengeance and secondly by the retribution of Our own initiative" (Codex Theodosianus XVI 1.2.).[7]

Plus, let us not forget, Rome believed the Christians were terrorists before Constantine's conversion.

[Vetalia]

You mean after the fall of the Western Roman Empire.
Eastern Rome was still functioning until the conquest of Constantinople.

Because Constantine saw a vision, and his soldiers followed.
Although Christianity did not become the state religion of Rome due to too many pagans living within their borders still.
But the Empire's conversion to Christianity would not have happened without the well-connected road system throughout the empire.
Years after Constantine, successive Emperors forced their pagan citizens to convert.

Plus, let us not forget, Rome believed the Christians were terrorists.

The Codex Theodosianus (Eng. Theodosian Code) was a compilation of the laws of the Roman Empire under the Christian emperors since 312. A commission was established by Theodosius II and his co-emperor Valentinian III on 26 March 429[5][6] and the compilation was published by a constitution of 15 February 438. It went into force in the eastern and western parts of the empire on 1 January 439.[5]

"It is Our will that all the peoples who are ruled by the administration of Our Clemency shall practice that religion which the divine Peter the Apostle transmitted to the Romans.... The rest, whom We adjudge demented and insane, shall sustain the infamy of heretical dogmas, their meeting places shall not receive the name of churches, and they shall be smitten first by divine vengeance and secondly by the retribution of Our own initiative" (Codex Theodosianus XVI 1.2.).[7]

Actually, the portion of the Code you cite was originally proclaimed by Theodosisus I in 380, who was the last Emperor of both East and West, and Constantinople didn't fall until nearly 1,000 years after the fall of the Western empire. Western Latin Roman civilization actually survived and thrived in Italy, North Africa and Hispania for centuries after the fall of the Empire, aided massively by Christian monks who preserved texts from antiquity, with the Christianized Visigoths founding the only new cities in Europe during the period of the "Dark Ages" until the Muslims showed up and started wreaking havoc.

The point I was making is that this obscure Judean cult survived the most intense oppression ever inflicted on any religion in the entirety of the Roman Empire, save maybe the Carthaginian religion during the Punic Wars and after centuries of said oppression not only survived but became the majority religion in many Roman cities, resulting it its ultimate embrace as the state religion.

[Celritannia]

You mean after the fall of the Western Roman Empire.
Eastern Rome was still functioning until the conquest of Constantinople.

Because Constantine saw a vision, and his soldiers followed.
Although Christianity did not become the state religion of Rome due to too many pagans living within their borders still.
But the Empire's conversion to Christianity would not have happened without the well-connected road system throughout the empire.
Years after Constantine, successive Emperors forced their pagan citizens to convert.

Plus, let us not forget, Rome believed the Christians were terrorists.

Actually, the portion of the Code you cite was originally proclaimed by Theodosisus I in 380, who was the last Emperor of both East and West, and Constantinople didn't fall until nearly 1,000 years after the fall of the Western empire. Western Latin Roman civilization actually survived and thrived in Italy, North Africa and Hispania for centuries after the fall of the Empire, with the Visigoths founding the only new cities in Europe during the period of the "Dark Ages" until the Muslims showed up and started wreaking havoc.

The point I was making is that this obscure Judean cult survived the most intense oppression ever inflicted on any religion in the entirety of the Roman Empire, save maybe the Carthaginian religion during the Punic Wars and after centuries of said oppression not only survived but became the majority religion in many Roman cities, resulting it its ultimate embrace as the state religion.

Again, considering the Romans consider Christianity a cult and a threat to the state, and thus a terrorist group.
And it was small, so really, it wan't much of a persecution. Nor the worst.
I can think of far worse.

I'd also like to point out, Christians did bur down the last remnants of the Great Library of Alexandria.
The Ottoman Empire actually preserved a lot of texts and knowledge in the Baghdad House of Wisdom.

Yet, it became the major religion through force mainly.

[Vetalia]

Again, considering the Romans consider Christianity a cult and a threat to the state, it was considered a terrorist group.
And it was small, so really, it wan;t much of a persecution.
I can think of far worse.

The Decian and Diocletianic persecutions weren't exactly minor.

[Samadhi]

Are they compatible?

Sure, any two concepts can build a strong bond and have a healthy relationship. It just depends on how attracted to each other when they begin dating.

With religions long history of fear when dealing with new situations and sciences meticulous and dry nature I suggest that they stay away from "fun" dates until they are more comfortable with each other.

[Celritannia]

Again, considering the Romans consider Christianity a cult and a threat to the state, it was considered a terrorist group.
And it was small, so really, it wan;t much of a persecution.
I can think of far worse.

The Decian and Diocletianic persecutions weren't exactly minor.

Neither was it the worst.
Jews, Native Americans, LGBT, etc.

[Vetalia]

I'd also like to point out, Christians did bur down the last remnants of the Great Library of Alexandria.

Actually, Julius Caesar was the most infamous pillager of the Library during its history. The Christians destroyed the Serapeum but there was no mention of a library among its losses. On the upside, the Christian monks preserved countless ancient works so that we are aware that Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great actually existed.

The Ottoman Empire actually preserved a lot of texts and knowledge in the Baghdad House of Wisdom.

The House of Wisdom in Baghdad maintained by the Islamic Abbasid Caliphate was destroyed during the Siege of Baghdad by the Ilkhanate centuries before the establishment of the Ottoman Empire. The sack was so bad that the Tigris ran black with the ink from the books cast into it.

[Vetalia]

The Decian and Diocletianic persecutions weren't exactly minor.

Neither was it the worst.
Jews, Native Americans, LGBT, etc.

None of those have anything to do with Christianity, though.

[Celritannia]

I'd also like to point out, Christians did bur down the last remnants of the Great Library of Alexandria.

Actually, Julius Caesar was the most infamous pillager of the Library during its history. The Christians destroyed the Serapeum but there was no mention of a library among its losses. On the upside, the Christian monks preserved countless ancient works so that we are aware that Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great actually existed.

The Ottoman Empire actually preserved a lot of texts and knowledge in the Baghdad House of Wisdom.

The House of Wisdom in Baghdad maintained by the Islamic Abbasid Caliphate was destroyed during the Siege of Baghdad by the Ilkhanate centuries before the establishment of the Ottoman Empire. The sack was so bad that the Tigris ran black with the ink from the books cast into it.

The library was accidentally burned, not on purpose when Julius was there.
Although what was burned may have just been shipping logs, and not the library itself:

In his book The Vanished Library, Luciano Canfora interprets the evidence from ancient writers to indicate the destruction of manuscripts stored in warehouses near the port waiting for export, rather than the great Library itself.

I would also like to point out this:

In 415 CE, on her way home from delivering her daily lectures at the university, Hypatia was attacked by this mob, consisting largely of Christian monks, dragged from her chariot down the street into a church, and was there stripped naked, beaten to death, and burned. The scholar Mangasar M. Mangasarian describes the scene as recorded by ancient historians:

The next morning, when Hypatia appeared in her chariot in front of her residence, suddenly five hundred men, all dressed in black and cowled, five hundred half-starved monks from the sands of the Egyptian desert -- five hundred monks, soldiers of the cross -- like a black hurricane, swooped down the street, boarded her chariot, and, pulling her off her seat, dragged her by the hair of her head into a -- how shall I say the word? -- into a church! Some historians intimate that the monks asked her to kiss the cross, to become a Christian and join the nunnery, if she wished her life spared. At any rate, these monks, under the leadership of St. Cyril's right-hand man, Peter the Reader, shamefully stripped her naked, and there, close to the altar and the cross, scraped her quivering flesh from her bones with oyster shells. The marble floor of the church was sprinkled with her warm blood. The altar, the cross, too, were bespattered, owing to the violence with which her limbs were torn, while the hands of the monks presented a sight too revolting to describe. The mutilated body, upon which the murderers feasted their fanatic hate, was then flung into the flames. (6)

In the aftermath of Hypatia's death, the University of Alexandria was sacked and burned on orders from Cyril, pagan temples were torn down, and there was a mass exodus of intellectuals and artists from Alexandria. Cyril was later declared a saint by the church for his efforts in suppressing paganism and fighting for the true faith. Hypatia's death has long been recognized as a watershed mark in history delineating the classical age of paganism from the age of Christianity.

I should have said the Pre-Ottoman Empire. Still, it took over Constantinople and sent a lot of ancient texts back to the House of Wisdom.

[Celritannia]

Neither was it the worst.
Jews, Native Americans, LGBT, etc.

None of those have anything to do with Christianity, though.

They were persecutions far worse than the Christians under the Romans.

[Vetalia]

The library was accidentally burned, not on purpose when Julius was there.

I should have said the Pre-Ottoman Empire. Still, it took over Constantinople and sent a lot of ancient texts back to the House of Wisdom.

Most acts of destruction are accidental, either via ignorance or violence. Caesar destroyed far more ancient works than any of the Christian monks who worked to save them during the collapse of the Empire.

Constantinople was conquered in 1453, well into the Early Modern Era, so what pre-Ottoman Empire are you referring to? The Byzantine Empire was on the defensive for much of its history and lost most of the Levant after the Arab Islamic conquests, which led to the establishment of a succession of Caliphates (which in modern days are a notorious ISIS claim), one of which, the Abbasid Caliphate established the House of Wisdom in the 8th century.

[Celritannia]

The library was accidentally burned, not on purpose when Julius was there.

I should have said the Pre-Ottoman Empire. Still, it took over Constantinople and sent a lot of ancient texts back to the House of Wisdom.

Most acts of destruction are accidental, either via ignorance or violence. Caesar destroyed far more ancient works than any of the Christian monks who worked to save them during the collapse of the Empire.

Constantinople was conquered in 1453, well into the Early Modern Era, so what pre-Ottoman Empire are you referring to? The Byzantine Empire was on the defensive for much of its history and lost most of the Levant after the Arab Islamic conquests, which led to the establishment of a succession of Caliphates (which in modern days are a notorious ISIS claim), one of which, the Abbasid Caliphate established in the 8th century.

As I just edited above, what Caesar destroyed was shipping logs. Not the library itself.


Damn, I was refering to the areas of Greece. For some reason I got Constantinople stuck in my head.
But the Islamic Golden Age was in part thanks to collecting a lot of ancient writings they were able to gather:
https://theculturetrip.com/middle-east/ ... of-wisdom/

[Lamoni]

The history of Christianity is not what this thread is about. Please get the thread back on topic.