Is immigration positive or negative to the EU?

[Marcurix]

I can say that about any immigrant group. However, remember... it might take a hundred years to get rid of these ethnic based gangs. The Mafias of Sicilians are still alive in the US long after the outflow of Italians going to the US slowed to a crawl.

Ok sicilian mafias are a point. But shifting to white supramism and racism is not the answer. So are all Italians in the US mafiozis? NO. Will the Salvadorians assimilate with time ? Yes.

so there is no reason to be anti-immigrant.

Who said anything about shifting to white supramism and racism?

[Edlichbury]

It is not, however, compatible to a western secular democracy.

Which is an all-round terrible system that should fall. An Islamic Europe would be greatly preferable to a secular one for not just Muslims but Christians as well.

Iran < Denmark
Guess which one is secular.

[Xirtam]

Oh yeah do telll uss moar abut teh Mad Evil Priests

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden

Not a priest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_child_sex_abuse_cases

Europe already has catholic's and immigration has nothing to do with this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Qatada

Not a priest.

Bloody Nicholas has been proclaimed a Saint. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_II_of_Russia

Oh please.
He was a lot better than Stalin and the other "commeez" that followed him and killed a lot more people than he did.
He did not set up any tyrannical state, he was a simply a leader of one, and it was with the end of his reign that a new tyrannical state was created.
Also, he was considered a saint by the orthodox church, which is mostly popular within europe as well as russia.
Also, this has nothing to do with immigration.

Mad evil Priests and Mad evil Saints are much of a muchness.

Madd evol herps and mmad ebil derps are herpy derpy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_inquisition

Spain is part of europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

Which were done by Europe ironically, which at the time was full of tyrannical states, but the places they were sending their soldiers to were also tyrannical states.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia

Has nothing to do with immigration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials

Has nothing to do with immigration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

Has nothing to do with mmadd ebull priests or immigration.

[Magna Libero]

It is not, however, compatible to a western secular democracy.

Which is an all-round terrible system that should fall. An Islamic Europe would be greatly preferable to a secular one for not just Muslims but Christians as well.

Yeah, the Netherlands is a good example from what I've heard. There is a pro-gay spirit in the Netherlands. In the contrary muslims in that nation are aggressively against gays. Even their right wing party is pro-gay.

Anyway, I can't believe that you are deliberately willing to sacrifice your nation to the people of Islamic countries. (I don't agree with the wording I've used in the last sentence, though)

[Edlichbury]

Oh yeah do telll uss moar abut teh Mad Evil Priests

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_c ... buse_cases

Bloody Nicholas has been proclaimed a Saint. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_II_of_Russia
Mad evil Priests and Mad evil Saints are much of a muchness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_inquisition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

Ignoring that you used Western history to denigrate the decidedly non-Western...

[Empire of Narnia]

Which is an all-round terrible system that should fall. An Islamic Europe would be greatly preferable to a secular one for not just Muslims but Christians as well.

Iran < Denmark
Guess which one is secular.

Denmark is a terrible, morally corrupt nation. Iran is a beautiful country with strong values that is being unfairly treated by the international community. Having money doesn't make a nation great. It is the culture and the beliefs of the people that makes a nation truly great

[Magna Libero]

Iran < Denmark
Guess which one is secular.

Denmark is a terrible, morally corrupt nation. Iran is a beautiful country with strong values that is being unfairly treated by the international community. Having money doesn't make a nation great. It is the culture and the beliefs of the people that makes a nation truly great

Even if you disagreed with those views?

I have to ask you, why do you want a people of another religious denomination or religion to rule over you rather than a secular one? Why can't you keep your beliefs to yourself and perhaps create a small society in which everyone who agrees with each other can take part in it?

[Xirtam]

What I really hate about this question is the "to the EU" part.
I hate having the argument "immigration/free trade could be bad for our country" because it only shows that the person making the argument has absolutely no empathy for people outside of their own country.
People need to stop thinking like fucking sociopaths.
Instead of asking "is this positive or negative for europeans" maybe we should asking "is this positive or negative for Asians and Africans" and "is this positive or negative for the world".

I don't know if this is a red herring or a strawman or an ad hominem. Probably all three.

I don't know if this is a bandwagon, moral high ground fallacy, or appeal to nature, probably all three

Why should we be asking if it is positive to others?

Because that is what emotionally mature mentally functioning human beings do.

I have received no God-given order to help those outside my nation.

You have no god-given order to help yourself or those in your nation either.
Even if it was universally agreed upon, why should subjective morality undermine the state? [/quote]
Why should subjective morality undermine rapists thieves and murderers!!!
FUCK EMPATHY, GO SOCIOPATHY!!!

They have an obligation to themselves before anybody else.

Oh no, they have no god-given order to act in their self-interest, why should subjective morality undermine immigrants?

[Edlichbury]

Iran < Denmark
Guess which one is secular.

Denmark is a terrible, morally corrupt nation. Iran is a beautiful country with strong values that is being unfairly treated by the international community. Having money doesn't make a nation great. It is the culture and the beliefs of the people that makes a nation truly great

Denmark is the happiest nation. The only rightful concern of any state is the well-being and satisfaction of its residents.

[Empire of Narnia]

Denmark is a terrible, morally corrupt nation. Iran is a beautiful country with strong values that is being unfairly treated by the international community. Having money doesn't make a nation great. It is the culture and the beliefs of the people that makes a nation truly great

Even if you disagreed with those views?

I have to ask you, why do you want a people of another religious denomination or religion to rule over you rather than a secular one? Why can't you keep your beliefs to yourself and perhaps create a small society in which everyone who agrees with each other can take part in it?

Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God and we share many similar values. "Secular" beliefs are anti-religion and go against fundamental religious values. An Islamic Europe would respect the People of The Book while a secular state would aim to destroy all religious values and morals.

[The Serbian Empire]

I can say that about any immigrant group. However, remember... it might take a hundred years to get rid of these ethnic based gangs. The Mafias of Sicilians are still alive in the US long after the outflow of Italians going to the US slowed to a crawl.

Ok sicilian mafias are a point. But shifting to white supramism and racism is not the answer. So are all Italians in the US mafiozis? NO. Will the Salvadorians assimilate with time ? Yes.

so there is no reason to be anti-immigrant.

I would say the reason the mafias even lasted was prohibition of alcohol and later drugs. Unfortunately, most of the EU is pretty anti-drug and thus ripe for gangs that form on ethnic lines due to the nature of immigrants not being as well off as their more established counterparts.

[Geilinor]

Iran < Denmark
Guess which one is secular.

Having money doesn't make a nation great.

But happiness does. http://www.copcap.com/Newslist/2014/New-report-explains-high-levels-of-happiness-in-Denmark

[Edlichbury]

Even if you disagreed with those views?

I have to ask you, why do you want a people of another religious denomination or religion to rule over you rather than a secular one? Why can't you keep your beliefs to yourself and perhaps create a small society in which everyone who agrees with each other can take part in it?

Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God and we share many similar values. "Secular" beliefs are anti-religion and go against fundamental religious values. An Islamic Europe would respect the People of The Book while a secular state would aim to destroy all religious values and morals.

Such woeful ignorance about the goals of secularism.

Tell me though, why should we deny that which has made the people happy, healthy, and free?

[Xirtam]

I'll correct myself.
It shows that the person making the argument has less empathy for people outside of their country than people inside their country, although not necessarily none.

and? I have less empathy for someone I meet on the street than for someone I know, does that make me a terrible person?

It's akin to racism, nepotism, cronyism and the like, although this minor form of bigotry is more widespread, so relative to the people around you it doesn't mean much, but nevertheless, it is a negative trait.

This is a straw man.

I disagree, you said it would be better to focus on the immigrants and the effects on them rather than on the Europeans and thus the existing system.

No, now you're just putting words in my mouth.

No where did I say that we should ignore the impact of immigrants on the place they're immigrating to.

You seem pretty intent on ignoring the impact of the native populations of those places, which is a really big part of said places.

Sometimes what seems to be isn't.
I haven't in any post said that the impact of immigration on native populations should be completely ignored.
Either quote where I supposedly said that we should or stop making straw men.

I was simply pointing out that the OP's question was ignoring the impact of immigration to europe on the immigrants and the world in general, which shows a clear deficit in the OP's empathy for non-europeans.

If a person lives in Europe and Europe has large amounts of immigration, asking about the impact of such on Europeans is only natural. Not a lack of empathy.

Absolutely.
But ignoring the impact on immigrants and the world as a whole is bigotry and indicative of a lack of empathy.

[Empire of Narnia]

Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God and we share many similar values. "Secular" beliefs are anti-religion and go against fundamental religious values. An Islamic Europe would respect the People of The Book while a secular state would aim to destroy all religious values and morals.

Such woeful ignorance about the goals of secularism.

Tell me though, why should we deny that which has made the people happy, healthy, and free?

A religious theocracy would do all those things. People would be happier under an Islamic State and freedom would have reasonable limits to protect morality.

This is why we need unrestricted immigration from countries with good values such as Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Iran. Muslims are your friends. Do not keep them out of Europe because of xenophobic fears.

[Republic of Greater America]

[quote="Magna Libero";p="18887285"]On February 4th, 2013, Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, addressed the Duma, (Russian Parliament), and gave a speech about the tensions with minorities in Russia:

"In Russia live Russians. Any minority, from anywhere, if it wants to live in Russia, to work and eat in Russia, should speak Russian, and should respect the Russian laws. If they prefer Shari'ya Law, then we advise them to go to those places where that's the state law. Russia does not need minorities. Minorities need Russia, and we will not grant them special privileges, or try to change our laws to fit their desires, no matter how loud they yell 'discrimination'. We better learn from the suicides of America, England, Holland and France, if we are to survive as a nation. The Russian customs and traditions are not compatible with the lack of culture or the primitive ways of most minorities. When this honorable legislative body thinks of creating new laws, it should have in mind the national interest first, observing that the minorities are not Russians.”
/quote]
I completely agree with the Putin! The only good immigrants are the ones who attempt to join our society, work hard, support their families, don't commit crimes or go on welfare, and have skilled jobs! Keep the Chinese/Mexican/Somali/immigrant factory workers and farmers home. We want doctors, engineers, scientists, teachers, and productive people!

[Edlichbury]

Such woeful ignorance about the goals of secularism.

Tell me though, why should we deny that which has made the people happy, healthy, and free?

A religious theocracy would do all those things. People would be happier under an Islamic State and freedom would have reasonable limits to protect morality.

This is why we need unrestricted immigration from countries with good values such as Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Iran. Muslims are your friends. Do not keep them out of Europe because of xenophobic fears.

The fact that the happiest people hail from the most secular parts of the world would strenuously disagree with the statement. I have no issue with Muslims; I have every issue with theocracies.

[Republic of Greater America]

A religious theocracy would do all those things. People would be happier under an Islamic State and freedom would have reasonable limits to protect morality.

This is why we need unrestricted immigration from countries with good values such as Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Iran. Muslims are your friends. Do not keep them out of Europe because of xenophobic fears.

The fact that the happiest people hail from the most secular parts of the world would strenuously disagree with the statement. I have no issue with Muslims; I have every issue with theocracies.

Narnia is either a troll or a fool, just ignore him, he doesn't know what the heck he's talking about.

[Empire of Narnia]

If I was a politician, which I hopefully would be I would want immigrants from nations that would likely vote for me. I would restrict immigration from Europe (I'm Canadian) and increase immigration from the Middle East and Africa.

[Empire of Narnia]

A religious theocracy would do all those things. People would be happier under an Islamic State and freedom would have reasonable limits to protect morality.

This is why we need unrestricted immigration from countries with good values such as Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Iran. Muslims are your friends. Do not keep them out of Europe because of xenophobic fears.

The fact that the happiest people hail from the most secular parts of the world would strenuously disagree with the statement. I have no issue with Muslims; I have every issue with theocracies.

How do you classify happiness? I think whatever system they used would be very biased towards Liberal nations. People are happiest with rules and limitations. That is why kids that grow up with rules and boundaries turn out better than kids who never get disciplined in most cases.

[Volantyz]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_c ... buse_cases

Bloody Nicholas has been proclaimed a Saint. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_II_of_Russia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_inquisition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia

Why are you quoting European priests if you want to criticize immigrants?

Because we already have more than enough Mad evil Priests^TM of our own thank you very much. We don't need any more.

You asked aboot teh MeP^TM in general rather than the specifics of Wahabi and Shiah MeP.

And I ain't criticizing immigrants. Most of them come here to escape tyranny. MeP^TM come here to set up even more tyranny.

|
Enoch Powell was UK Minister of Health in 1965. Nurse wanted wages. Enoch imported a horde of darkie nurses on slave wages. Enoch made his millions by whingeing that the country is full of niggers.

Racism = Profit. It ain't the Blacks fault. Government deliberately invites in Blacks because Corporations make profit from Racism.

[Magna Libero]

Even if you disagreed with those views?

I have to ask you, why do you want a people of another religious denomination or religion to rule over you rather than a secular one? Why can't you keep your beliefs to yourself and perhaps create a small society in which everyone who agrees with each other can take part in it?

Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God and we share many similar values. "Secular" beliefs are anti-religion and go against fundamental religious values. An Islamic Europe would respect the People of The Book while a secular state would aim to destroy all religious values and morals.

Right.
Muslims don't, their god is not a good one, I'm afraid, and Mohammed might be a false prophet.

I think it's easier to be a decentralized fundamentalist than it is to achieve a perfect theocracy. The probability of someone ruling over me to have the exact same values is miniscule, or I'd say impossible as I change all the time.

[Empire of Narnia]

Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God and we share many similar values. "Secular" beliefs are anti-religion and go against fundamental religious values. An Islamic Europe would respect the People of The Book while a secular state would aim to destroy all religious values and morals.

Right.
Muslims don't, their god is not a good one, I'm afraid, and Mohammed might be a false prophet.

I think it's easier to be a decentralized fundamentalist than it is to achieve a perfect theocracy. The probability of someone ruling over me to have the exact same values is miniscule, or I'd say impossible as I change all the time.

A decentralized State is more likely to fall to Liberalism than a totalitarian theocracy with a strong belief in tradition and the rule of God. Look at how stable nations such as Saudi Arabia are, some of those ideas should be brought to Europe through mass immigration.

[Edlichbury]

Right.
Muslims don't, their god is not a good one, I'm afraid, and Mohammed might be a false prophet.

I think it's easier to be a decentralized fundamentalist than it is to achieve a perfect theocracy. The probability of someone ruling over me to have the exact same values is miniscule, or I'd say impossible as I change all the time.

A decentralized State is more likely to fall to Liberalism than a totalitarian theocracy with a strong belief in tradition and the rule of God. Look at how stable nations such as Saudi Arabia are, some of those ideas should be brought to Europe through mass immigration.

http://carnegieendowment.org/2013/06/14 ... loadFlag=1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80 ... n_protests
http://en.alalam.ir/news/1504345
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-12482678
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e32112.htm
http://www.opendemocracy.net/zayd-alisa ... ble-shield
http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/08/2 ... ic-revolt/
http://middleeast.about.com/od/syria/a/ ... rising.htm
http://www.theglobalmail.org/feature/th ... arabia/84/
Such stability. It's enviable.

[Magna Libero]

I completely agree with the Putin! The only good immigrants are the ones who attempt to join our society, work hard, support their families, don't commit crimes or go on welfare, and have skilled jobs! Keep the Chinese/Mexican/Somali/immigrant factory workers and farmers home. We want doctors, engineers, scientists, teachers, and productive people!

Not everyone abide by the law, work harder than the average person or is able to live without welfare in a country.