The Islamic Discussion Thread ٤: It's Always Sunni In Arabia

[AhmadiMuslim1889]

No? What I mean is that when you start trying to quantify God and looking for physical proofs in the material world you are going about it the wrong way.

You're starting with the assumption that magic exists and resists any attempt at discovery and then pretty much ending there as well you are going about it the wrong way. You're saying there can be no evidence that we can experience that Allah exists which necessitates that as a physical being there is no actual reason to believe.

Yeah, you just said physical being whereas none of us claimed this.

[A m e n r i a]

You're starting with the assumption that magic exists and resists any attempt at discovery and then pretty much ending there as well you are going about it the wrong way. You're saying there can be no evidence that we can experience that Allah exists which necessitates that as a physical being there is no actual reason to believe.

Yeah, you just said physical being whereas none of us claimed this.

Remember that God is unlike any of His creations.

[Des-Bal]

One can come to belief in proof of Allah when they have true prophetical dreams that have been fulfilled.

Like I said, human reason alone of the observation of the physical world can only get you as far as "there should be a god", but not proof of God.

It all depends on the individual for one to experience Allah in prayers.

Or when they been told again and again as an impressionable and fearful child, or when they've experienced a tragedy, or when they see death as imminent and unavoidable. Basically any time in a person's life that they're ripe to be victimized by scammers they also tend to be quite receptive to religion and I decline to ignore the probable connection. As to dreams, it would be absurd with the number of times people dream that they wouldn't have one that came true especially given how much we like to retcon things to fit a narrative.

I haven't seen any evidence we should go that far, if we're starting with the idea that Allah can leave no rational evidence then we should actually be at the opposite place, everything rational says that there should NOT be a god.

[Des-Bal]

Yeah, you just said physical being whereas none of us claimed this.

Phyiscal being referred to those of us party to this discussion, if you're not a physical being you have to tell me.

[A m e n r i a]

One can come to belief in proof of Allah when they have true prophetical dreams that have been fulfilled.

Like I said, human reason alone of the observation of the physical world can only get you as far as "there should be a god", but not proof of God.

It all depends on the individual for one to experience Allah in prayers.

Or when they been told again and again as an impressionable and fearful child, or when they've experienced a tragedy, or when they see death as imminent and unavoidable. Basically any time in a person's life that they're ripe to be victimized by scammers they also tend to be quite receptive to religion and I decline to ignore the probable connection. As to dreams, it would be absurd with the number of times people dream that they wouldn't have one that came true especially given how much we like to retcon things to fit a narrative.

I haven't seen any evidence we should go that far, if we're starting with the idea that Allah can leave no rational evidence then we should actually be at the opposite place, everything rational says that there should NOT be a god.

If anything, being rational would make you believe. Aside from historical facts, there are also supernatural occurences today that should be enough proof of the other side. You believe in the other side, you start believing in God.

[Des-Bal]

If anything, being rational would make you believe. Aside from historical facts, there are also supernatural occurences today that should be enough proof of the other side. You believe in the other side, you start believing in God.

Just the opposite. As I said if we say that we cannot find rational physical evidence of god then anything rational points the opposite direction.

As I said there's not a single supernatural occurence that isn't better explained by lying, mental illness, or people not understanding how the "natural" actually operates.

[AhmadiMuslim1889]

One can come to belief in proof of Allah when they have true prophetical dreams that have been fulfilled.

Like I said, human reason alone of the observation of the physical world can only get you as far as "there should be a god", but not proof of God.

It all depends on the individual for one to experience Allah in prayers.

Or when they been told again and again as an impressionable and fearful child, or when they've experienced a tragedy, or when they see death as imminent and unavoidable. Basically any time in a person's life that they're ripe to be victimized by scammers they also tend to be quite receptive to religion and I decline to ignore the probable connection. As to dreams, it would be absurd with the number of times people dream that they wouldn't have one that came true especially given how much we like to retcon things to fit a narrative.

I haven't seen any evidence we should go that far, if we're starting with the idea that Allah can leave no rational evidence then we should actually be at the opposite place, everything rational says that there should NOT be a god.

Neither neg nor myself have been raised into Islam as children. Neg has been just starting to get into Islam, and I have been Muslim for three years.

I don't believe in scammers either so...yeah

It's not about making up narratives. It's about how an event happens when one dreams about it before hand.

[AhmadiMuslim1889]

If anything, being rational would make you believe. Aside from historical facts, there are also supernatural occurences today that should be enough proof of the other side. You believe in the other side, you start believing in God.

Just the opposite. As I said if we say that we cannot find rational physical evidence of god then anything rational points the opposite direction.

As I said there's not a single supernatural occurence that isn't better explained by lying, mental illness, or people not understanding how the "natural" actually operates.

I have no doubt many people fabricate things, but if a person experiences a vision. And is known for being honest, having mental illness, and/or actually understands how the natural world works, then what?

[A m e n r i a]

If anything, being rational would make you believe. Aside from historical facts, there are also supernatural occurences today that should be enough proof of the other side. You believe in the other side, you start believing in God.

Just the opposite. As I said if we say that we cannot find rational physical evidence of god then anything rational points the opposite direction.

As I said there's not a single supernatural occurence that isn't better explained by lying, mental illness, or people not understanding how the "natural" actually operates.

Now that's just ridiculous. The other side is very real. And though I admit trying to provoke it was stupid of me (I was a teenager at the time), it was nevertheless an enlightening experience you should try experiencing. Come back once you got something more logical, or once you've experienced it, it'd be easier to explain then.

[Des-Bal]

Neither neg nor myself have been raised into Islam as children. Neg has been just starting to get into Islam, and I have been Muslim for three years.

I don't believe in scammers either so...yeah

It's not about making up narratives. It's about how an event happens when one dreams about it before hand.

The fact that the young, dying, and grief stricken are more easilly scammed doesn't mean that only they can be taken in. The same is true with religion.

I believe in scammers, I can show you proof. I like to have proof of things I believe in.

Yes, you see something in the world and you remember a dream. The thing is your brain likes to make shit up to fill in gaps. You can see it witness testimony and, conventionality enough, fake psychic predictions. People rember details in the prediction that fit what happened and forget details that don't fit, the brain loves a pattern.

[Des-Bal]

Now that's just ridiculous. The other side is very real. And though I admit trying to provoke it was stupid of me (I was a teenager at the time), it was nevertheless an enlightening experience you should try experiencing. Come back once you got something more logical, or once you've experienced it, it'd be easier to explain then.

No it's totally imaginary and if I'm wrong please provide with evidence.

[A m e n r i a]

Now that's just ridiculous. The other side is very real. And though I admit trying to provoke it was stupid of me (I was a teenager at the time), it was nevertheless an enlightening experience you should try experiencing. Come back once you got something more logical, or once you've experienced it, it'd be easier to explain then.

No it's totally imaginary and if I'm wrong please provide with evidence.

Good idea. Should've done so back then. Man, teenagers can be stupid.

[A m e n r i a]

Neither neg nor myself have been raised into Islam as children. Neg has been just starting to get into Islam, and I have been Muslim for three years.

I don't believe in scammers either so...yeah

It's not about making up narratives. It's about how an event happens when one dreams about it before hand.

The fact that the young, dying, and grief stricken are more easilly scammed doesn't mean that only they can be taken in. The same is true with religion.

I believe in scammers, I can show you proof. I like to have proof of things I believe in.

Yes, you see something in the world and you remember a dream. The thing is your brain likes to make shit up to fill in gaps. You can see it witness testimony and, conventionality enough, fake psychic predictions. People rember details in the prediction that fit what happened and forget details that don't fit, the brain loves a pattern.

True, but one person's brain doesn't change reality. What are you, Thanos?

[The Man Who Shot Jiminy Cricket]

If anything, being rational would make you believe. Aside from historical facts, there are also supernatural occurences today that should be enough proof of the other side. You believe in the other side, you start believing in God.

Just the opposite. As I said if we say that we cannot find rational physical evidence of god then anything rational points the opposite direction.

As I said there's not a single supernatural occurence that isn't better explained by lying, mental illness, or people not understanding how the "natural" actually operates.

Look it over

http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/pick/

[Des-Bal]

True, but one person's brain doesn't change reality. What are you, Thanos?

Your brain contains your record of history, your entire experience of reality. When your brain changes so does your understanding of reality. You remember details of prophetic dreams that fit what you see later and you forget the ones that don't mesh.

[Des-Bal]

Look it over

http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/pick/

I have, there's not a shred of evidence in it.

[A m e n r i a]

True, but one person's brain doesn't change reality. What are you, Thanos?

Your brain contains your record of history, your entire experience of reality. When your brain changes so does your understanding of reality. You remember details of prophetic dreams that fit what you see later and you forget the ones that don't mesh.

Hmm..try taking it this way. Say you got a scar now. I see it. I ask how you got it. Even if you were to lie or misremember how you got it, it doesn't change the reality of how you actually got it.

[Des-Bal]

Hmm..try taking it this way. Say you got a scar now. I see it. I ask how you got it. Even if you were to lie or misremember how you got it, it doesn't change the reality of how you actually got it.

Not in dispute. The issue is that you misremembered the story so if later you someone gets injured and you say "this is exactly like the time I got this scar" you're wrong. That's the problem with prophetic dreams and predictions.

[A m e n r i a]

Hmm..try taking it this way. Say you got a scar now. I see it. I ask how you got it. Even if you were to lie or misremember how you got it, it doesn't change the reality of how you actually got it.

Not in dispute. The issue is that you misremembered the story so if later you someone gets injured and you say "this is exactly like the time I got this scar" you're wrong. That's the problem with prophetic dreams and predictions.

No, the discussion was about the reality of God, and no one person can alter reality, consciously or not.

[Des-Bal]

No, the discussion was about the reality of God, and no one person can alter reality, consciously or not.

And this specific aspect of the discussion was about believing in a god because of prophetic dreams. The reality there's not any reason to believe a god exists, less reason still to believe any religion is even close, and less reason still to assume Islam out of the whole damn lot is correct.

[A m e n r i a]

No, the discussion was about the reality of God, and no one person can alter reality, consciously or not.

And this specific aspect of the discussion was about believing in a god because of prophetic dreams. The reality there's not any reason to believe a god exists, less reason still to believe any religion is even close, and less reason still to assume Islam out of the whole damn lot is correct.

While you're typing this God is up there doing His thing. That's reality, even if the whole world decides to dismiss this fact.

[Des-Bal]

While you're typing this God is up there doing His thing. That's reality, even if the whole world decides to dismiss this fact.

There is no god, no matter how many people choose to believe otherwise. I can say this just as much as you say the opposite but when I say it I get to point to the total dearth of evidence instead of avoiding or trying to invent excuses for it.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

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