Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

[Tarsonis]

Except these were people in power who abused their power to kill and hide their crimes. You're right this is no worse than a government agency hiding its horrendous crimes, but at the same time this is no worse than a government agency hiding its horrendous crimes.

Every single group and organization across the globe and throughout history has engaged in some kind of abuses, larger or smaller. It's just reality of how mankind works and everyone is aware of that. When we hear about the united states government injecting minorities with deadly diseases we don't hear mass cries about how it is ilegitimate and doesn't represent anyone and yet when we hear about the church doing even lesser evils god apparently doesnt exist anymore and it is a fraud organization. Anticlerical bigotry - pure and simple.

Yeah, you're just wrong man. Plain and simple.

[Wolfsdale]

Every single group and organization across the globe and throughout history has engaged in some kind of abuses, larger or smaller. It's just reality of how mankind works and everyone is aware of that. When we hear about the united states government injecting minorities with deadly diseases we don't hear mass cries about how it is ilegitimate and doesn't represent anyone and yet when we hear about the church doing even lesser evils god apparently doesnt exist anymore and it is a fraud organization. Anticlerical bigotry - pure and simple.

So if enough people do the wrong thing, its ok. Got it.

It is rather about your anticlerical hipocrisy and using this scandal as a pretext to badmouth the church you hate iregardless of evil it does or doesn't do.

[Wolfsdale]

Every single group and organization across the globe and throughout history has engaged in some kind of abuses, larger or smaller. It's just reality of how mankind works and everyone is aware of that. When we hear about the united states government injecting minorities with deadly diseases we don't hear mass cries about how it is ilegitimate and doesn't represent anyone and yet when we hear about the church doing even lesser evils god apparently doesnt exist anymore and it is a fraud organization. Anticlerical bigotry - pure and simple.

Yeah, you're just wrong man. Plain and simple.

Priests coming to get poor children to abuse them. Emotional stories straight out of jacobin playbook.

[Nevertopia]

Yeah, you're just wrong man. Plain and simple.

Priests coming to get poor children to abuse them. Emotional stories straight out of jacobin playbook.

Except priests in the vatican DO abuse children. Just because you think its an emotional story that doesnt mean its invalid, the people guilty of these crimes need to be excommunicated and brought to trial, why you insist on defending them is wrong. Isnt that the right thing to do? Someone in the clergy uses their position to do harm, why wouldnt you want to remove someone like that?

[Tarsonis]

So if enough people do the wrong thing, its ok. Got it.

It is rather about your anticlerical hipocrisy and using this scandal as a pretext to badmouth the church you hate iregardless of evil it does or doesn't do.

No, it isn't. It's a legit horrific cycle of abuse, unchecked and unprevented by the hierarchy. They should be held accountable.

Ffs I just tried to provide broader context over the apology issue, you're just hand waving away unconscionable abuse and utter moral failing of the clergy.

[Tarsonis]

Yeah, you're just wrong man. Plain and simple.

Priests coming to get poor children to abuse them. Emotional stories straight out of jacobin playbook.

More like documented fact. Next you're gonna blame the Masons.

[Wolfsdale]

Priests coming to get poor children to abuse them. Emotional stories straight out of jacobin playbook.

Except priests in the vatican DO abuse children. Just because you think its an emotional story that doesnt mean its invalid, the people guilty of these crimes need to be excommunicated and brought to trial, why you insist on defending them is wrong.

I'm here, still waiting for such narratives to be spun about public school teachers who do it at higher rates. But sadly that doesn't quite build the necessary ideological narrative so we will forget about the children in that case. Never heard about sad sob stories about children trying to be rescued from public school teacher abuse, can you imagine.

[Nevertopia]

It is rather about your anticlerical hipocrisy and using this scandal as a pretext to badmouth the church you hate iregardless of evil it does or doesn't do.

No, it isn't. It's a legit horrific cycle of abuse, unchecked and unprevented by the hierarchy. They should be held accountable.

Ffs I just tried to provide broader context over the apology issue, you're just hand waving away unconscionable abuse and utter moral failing of the clergy.

EXACTLY. If your Priest started abusing children why wouldnt you have them removed? Theres no God in that, an agent of God wouldn't stoop so low no matter how flawed humanity is. You choose that kind of evil and there will always be too many Priests who choose evil so long as they arent all brought to justice.

[Tarsonis]

I am the last person to excuse vatican for its scandals, but what could have they done exactly, not like it's the middle ages and they have the authority to try them through a separate church led judiciary. Not to mention that there are far worse abuse crisis than in the vatican so its not like you can single them out.

How hard is it to not kill 215 children? "What could they have done?" Are you listening to yourself? THEY COULD HAVE NOT DONE MURDER. How incompetent does your religion have to be to dismiss 215 child deaths because "JuDiCiArY"? How far gone does your religion have to be to consider this as business as usual? All they had to do was THE RIGHT THING.

If there is a God, he is not in the churches.

Don't perceive him as emblematic of Catholics. His takes are the fringe minority.

[Wolfsdale]

Priests coming to get poor children to abuse them. Emotional stories straight out of jacobin playbook.

More like documented fact. Next you're gonna blame the Masons.

Its catholics like you who play right into their anticlerical narratives.

[Tarsonis]

Except priests in the vatican DO abuse children. Just because you think its an emotional story that doesnt mean its invalid, the people guilty of these crimes need to be excommunicated and brought to trial, why you insist on defending them is wrong.

I'm here, still waiting for such narratives to be spun about public school teachers who do it at higher rates. But sadly that doesn't quite build the necessary ideological narrative so we will forget about the children in that case. Never heard about sad sob stories about children trying to be rescued from public school teacher abuse, can you imagine.

I'll take Whattaboutism for $600 Alex.

[Nevertopia]

Except priests in the vatican DO abuse children. Just because you think its an emotional story that doesnt mean its invalid, the people guilty of these crimes need to be excommunicated and brought to trial, why you insist on defending them is wrong.

I'm here, still waiting for such narratives to be spun about public school teachers who do it at higher rates. But sadly that doesn't quite build the necessary ideological narrative so we will forget about the children in that case. Never heard about sad sob stories about children trying to be rescued from public school teacher abuse, can you imagine.

Its not a contest, government agent or clergyman if they abuse their station they need to be held accountable. Excusing it away because others were never brought to justice does not mean it shouldnt stop now.

[Wolfsdale]

How hard is it to not kill 215 children? "What could they have done?" Are you listening to yourself? THEY COULD HAVE NOT DONE MURDER. How incompetent does your religion have to be to dismiss 215 child deaths because "JuDiCiArY"? How far gone does your religion have to be to consider this as business as usual? All they had to do was THE RIGHT THING.

If there is a God, he is not in the churches.

Don't perceive him as emblematic of Catholics. His takes are the fringe minority.

I AM a fringe minority in that i actually care about the church, its holy mission and reputation and refuse to stand hearing day and night, in real life and online, left wing and liberal anticlericals badmouth and assault the church. My family has witnessed murder and persecution of catholics in person - excused and legitimized by such stories and narratives about us.

[Just-An-Illusion]

Seriously since when did holding priest accountable for abuse become anti clerical? I'm not Catholic myself... But if a Baptist priest was abusing his power I would want him to be accountable as well.

[Tarsonis]

More like documented fact. Next you're gonna blame the Masons.

Its catholics like you who play right into their anticlerical narratives.

The conspiracy isn't real. These aren't narratives, these are factually established accounts. You're not even denying this, you're just trying to wish wash and deflect. It's Catholics like you who made the cycle of abuse possible, caring more about the perception of scandal rather than doing the right thing.

[Wolfsdale]

Seriously since when did holding priest accountable for abuse become anti clerical? I'm not Catholic myself... But if a Baptist priest was abusing his power I would want him to be accountable as well.

It is not about abuse. It is about presenting the church as some kind of evil boogeyman kiddie diddling indian murdering organization which opresses the common folk as is commonly spun by all sorts of bigots from protestant fundamentalists to jacobins.

[Wolfsdale]

Its catholics like you who play right into their anticlerical narratives.

The conspiracy isn't real. These aren't narratives, these are factually established accounts. You're not even denying this, you're just trying to wish wash and deflect. It's Catholics like you who made the cycle of abuse possible, caring more about the perception of scandal rather than doing the right thing.

The church has brought immense good and improvement to indian and white man alike. Its track record is spotless, few cases of poor school management and prejudice against minorities, common across all section of society at the time doesn't change that. And these false anticlerical narratives you uphold by trying to be "good guy, not like the other bad catholics" will NEVER be true.

[Tarsonis]

The conspiracy isn't real. These aren't narratives, these are factually established accounts. You're not even denying this, you're just trying to wish wash and deflect. It's Catholics like you who made the cycle of abuse possible, caring more about the perception of scandal rather than doing the right thing.

The church has brought immense good and improvement to indian and white man alike. Its track record is spotless, few cases of poor school management and prejudice against minorities, common across all section of society at the time doesn't change that. And these false anticlerical narratives you uphold by trying to be "good guy, not like the other bad catholics" will NEVER be true.

You're just spouting delusional nonsense at this point.

[Salus Maior]

not when its institutionalized abuse. Not when the people in power dont do anything. Thats the difference, its not about a group of bad apples, its also the people in power who do nothing. Remember when the Vatican told all the child sex abuse victims to just forgive their molesters instead of bringing them to justice? You dont just kill 215 children and pretend nothing wrongs happening.

Incompetent/morally corrupt religion leadership feeds flawed human beings to abuse their power. News at 11.

I'm not making the "bad apples" argument. Even though it's certainly true that the vast majority of Catholics have nothing to do with the schools, with them being a North American phenomenon and not even being entirely Catholic to begin with. My point is that you can't expect any institution to be entirely clean and without skeletons in the closet because every institution is made up of human beings. Especially old institutions. That's not to make light of this, but that's the bottom line.

I don't actually remember the Vatican doing that. That being said, there has been a lot of progress in making the Church a safer place, and predators are being taken out. And nobody is pretending that nothing was wrong with the Residential schools.

How hard is it to not kill 215 children? "What could they have done?" Are you listening to yourself? THEY COULD HAVE NOT DONE MURDER. How incompetent does your religion have to be to dismiss 215 child deaths because "JuDiCiArY"? How far gone does your religion have to be to consider this as business as usual? All they had to do was THE RIGHT THING.

If there is a God, he is not in the churches.

It's worth noting that the residential schools were part of government policy in the U.S and Canada to Anglicize the Native Americans. The policy of cultural destruction which led to the deaths of these children is also on the government's shoulders. That's not to dismiss the fact that Catholics perpetrated this in some of the residential schools, but that's the context.

It's not "business as usual". It's as horrifying and criminal to us as it is to you.

[Punished UMN]

Don't perceive him as emblematic of Catholics. His takes are the fringe minority.

I AM a fringe minority in that i actually care about the church, its holy mission and reputation and refuse to stand hearing day and night, in real life and online, left wing and liberal anticlericals badmouth and assault the church. My family has witnessed murder and persecution of catholics in person - excused and legitimized by such stories and narratives about us.

Then why not punish clerics who play into that by doing horrific things like murder and rape children instead of shrugging your shoulders and going "shit happens, what can you do?" It seems like you're outright against clerics being held accountable for violating the trust the Church has placed in them.

[Salus Maior]

Its track record is spotless

Dude, just no.

The human element of the Church has absolutely done wrong, in many places throughout history. This is something which is undeniable when faced with real history and things happening in the present as well. Because, again, the human element is flawed because humanity is flawed.

It's neither mature or moral to ignore the Church's wrongdoing, and it doesn't help you at all with your walk with Christ.

[Kowani]

Its track record is spotless, few cases of poor school management and prejudice against minorities, common across all section of society at the time doesn't change that.

this is nonsense
it implies the problem with residential schools was mismanagement
but we know that wasn't the problem
they were explicitly designed genocidal institutions
for fucks' sake

[Washington Resistance Army]

The conspiracy isn't real. These aren't narratives, these are factually established accounts. You're not even denying this, you're just trying to wish wash and deflect. It's Catholics like you who made the cycle of abuse possible, caring more about the perception of scandal rather than doing the right thing.

The church has brought immense good and improvement to indian and white man alike. Its track record is spotless, few cases of poor school management and prejudice against minorities, common across all section of society at the time doesn't change that. And these false anticlerical narratives you uphold by trying to be "good guy, not like the other bad catholics" will NEVER be true.

If the Church's record was spotless why have Popes gone on record asking for forgiveness for the Church's failings and past actions :thinking:

[Salus Maior]

My family has witnessed murder and persecution of catholics in person - excused and legitimized by such stories and narratives about us.

Obviously, such persecution is wrong and hateful. Because that is holding someone accountable for a wrongdoing that they're not responsible for, that's essentially genocidal bigotry. Your average Catholic, and most Priests, are not responsible for things like the residential schools and clerical abuses, so it's clearly wrong and unjust to persecute Catholics as a whole for what a relative few have done. I mean, that should be obvious considering I'm Catholic.

But, that there are people who do evil towards to Church doesn't mean that there aren't people that do evil within the Church.

[North Washington Republic]

The church has brought immense good and improvement to indian and white man alike. Its track record is spotless, few cases of poor school management and prejudice against minorities, common across all section of society at the time doesn't change that. And these false anticlerical narratives you uphold by trying to be "good guy, not like the other bad catholics" will NEVER be true.

If the Church's record was spotless why have Popes gone on record asking for forgiveness for the Church's failings and past actions :thinking:

Well, when I was a rad trad Catholic, I would say that popes that did that were heretical for doing so, because it’s denying the infallibility of the Church. I was one of those Catholics that referred to the inquisition as “the holy inquisition”.