The fusion power thread

[Dooom35796821595]

All the base evidence that it can be done is there, it’s the other side of fission, fusion boosted nuclear weapons, the theoretical calculations based on small scale experiments, and of course the sun. Any failure isn’t because it can’t be done, but instead is evidence of our inability to do it.

So why should we waste all of our time on something we can't do when instead we could work on things we know can work right now while also researching fusion?

I’m not advocating we devote all resources to fusion research, we can do many things at once. I just think we need to dedicate more resources toward it considering the current phobia of fission power.

[Unstoppable Empire of Doom]

It takes more energy than it produces. The reaction lasts a fraction of a fraction of a second. Barring some other incredible discovery it is pointless. This thread would be better spent discussing the fission power we already have which with small risks would solve global warming.

Not necessarily. It needs some serious optimization so that we can mantain it for longer, but it is not like it always needs more power than what it produces.

Currently it does.

[Unstoppable Empire of Doom]

It takes more energy than it produces. The reaction lasts a fraction of a fraction of a second. Barring some other incredible discovery it is pointless. This thread would be better spent discussing the fission power we already have which with small risks would solve global warming.

You appear to have missed the giant fuckoff fusion reactor that already provides 1% of all electricity generation globally.

Do you mean the sun? Or did you click some link that said you wouldn't believe what happens next?

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Let's gooo fusion, trillon dollar research grants for something that will benefit all mankind.

[Unstoppable Empire of Doom]

Let's gooo fusion, trillon dollar research grants for something that will benefit all mankind.

70 years of research and nearly a trillion dollars already spent by us taxpayers alone have turned up nothing... just keep that in mind.

[Neko-koku]

We do have a pretty good reason that we won’t-most people don’t care.

You mean like everyone else?

Not to mention that the Sentinelese are very hostile, attack anyone trying to make contact e and the scientific community really wants to keep the island as it currently is.

Yet they have no advanced weaponry. So that's a very good way to ensure almost certain extermination.

Rules in this universe

1. Be strong
2. If 1 fails do not get noticed
3. If 1 and 2 fail submit to whatever power in control while secretly fixing 1

Failing at 1 can already be deadly because 2 can't be preserved forever. Failing at 1 and 2 is usually fatal. Sentinelese fail at all three.

[Kowani]

Not to mention that the Sentinelese are very hostile, attack anyone trying to make contact e and the scientific community really wants to keep the island as it currently is.

Yet they have no advanced weaponry. So that's a very good way to ensure almost certain extermination.

A better way to do that is not to be worth exterminating.

[Neko-koku]

Yet they have no advanced weaponry. So that's a very good way to ensure almost certain extermination.

A better way to do that is not to be worth exterminating.

That's actually very hard to achieve as isolated tribes don't really know who will or will not covet their resources because they don't tend to know the value of their own resources.

Any random Burmese, Indian or Sri Lankan militant group may consider the islands useful and that's sufficient to guarantee death to that small tribe.

[Kowani]

A better way to do that is not to be worth exterminating.

That's actually very hard to achieve as isolated tribes don't really know who will or will not covet their resources because they don't tend to know the value of their own resources.

Nobody wants their resources. It’s a rock in the middle of the ocean with some trees and crabs.

[Neko-koku]

That's actually very hard to achieve as isolated tribes don't really know who will or will not covet their resources because they don't tend to know the value of their own resources.

Nobody wants their resources. It’s a rock in the middle of the ocean with some trees and crabs.

They are useful as hiding spots of militants and drug cartels. That's already dangerous enough.

The Sentinelese need to learn at least military aspects of modern tech ASAP or they are constantly in danger of subjugation and extermination.

[UniversalCommons]

The only proven fusion is from the moon, Helium-3, and that requires a massive outlay to get. It would quite literally be like the Apollo program or other massive endeavor. People would have to be willing to pour money and resources for a decade before they saw results. It took 8 years for the Apollo program to see results. People have been conditioned to like short term small government programs. There has not been a big project like the Hoover Dam or the Work Projects Administration for a very long time.

Helium 3 is a long shot option.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/scienc ... fficiency/

Everyone needs a little moonshine.

We will see Space X getting Helium 3 before the government does at the rate we are going.

[Grenartia]

Spice?

There’s probably spice in space.

We expanded out of Africa and are colonizing space to exploit native populations?

I mean, upon the second wave of African Expansion, most of the previous populations of the Homo Genus got either genocided or assimilated.

Besides, what do you think we’ll do to non spacefaring aliens?

Well, for that to even happen, we'll first have to colonize outside our solar system, and honestly, FTL (assuming its possible) is even further out of our reach than fusion power.

Hopefully, in the meantime, cheap, clean, reliable, and (effectively) limitless nuclear power will allow us to move away from scarcity and our more barbaric instincts.

There’s probably spice in space.


I mean, upon the second wave of African Expansion, most of the previous populations of the Homo Genus got either genocided or assimilated.

Besides, what do you think we’ll do to non spacefaring aliens?

Yep. The only way to survive is to expand. We have to clear up a large area which needs to be free from dangerous aliens.

And this is the precise kind of dangerous thinking that will make us no better than our ancestors were, and will only risk humanity's future.

There is no need for resource wars for a civilization that has mastered interstellar travel. Any and all resources that the civilization could possibly need can be gotten from uninhabited star systems, instead of wasting resources and lives in a petty occupation of another civilization's planets.

Yep. The only way to survive is to expand. We have to clear up a large area which needs to be free from dangerous aliens.

Well, no. The Sentinelese are surviving just fine.

By pure statistics, though, it’s unlikely any aliens would be dangerous to us beyond the normal level of pathogen.

Not just statistics. The implications of space travel itself requires any spacefaring civilization to severely curtail any self-destructive tendencies it has, or it will not last long, if at all.

Today on Earth, for instance, drunk drivers are certainly a nuisance, and they cause too many tragic deaths. However, the level of destruction caused by one drunken asshole wrecklessly operating a motor vehicle at say, 160 kph (or even higher), with impaired judgement pales in comparison to the level of destruction caused by one drunken asshole wrecklessly operating even a small sublight personal craft (say, 10 metric tons) at normal orbital velocities. To say nothing of if said drunken asshole crashes into the surface of an inhabited world at even the relatively slow speed of 3km/s.

Given the Kinetic Energy Equation:

KE = (1/2)Mass*(Velocity^2)

Simple plug and play tells us:

KE = (1/2)(10000000)(3000^2) = 5000000*9000000 = 4.5*10^13 Joules

This puts our drunk driver's kamikaze run in the same ballpark of destruction as the bomb that dropped on fucking Hiroshima.

And 3km/s is only barely more than a third of the velocity objects in Low Earth Orbit have.

Now, imagine the risk that is entailed by a civilization that has colonized its solar system and has its equivalent of passenger vehicles, powered by fusion rockets with several orders of magnitude higher exhaust velocity than that dinky little 3km/s. Every drunk driver then, is an extinction-level event for a planet.

This is what I mean when I say space-faring civilzations MUST severely curtail all of their self-destructive tendencies, even the 'accidental' ones.

[Grenartia]

I must admit that I do not know about physics, but anything that works to reduce our current level of fossil fuel usage and carbon admissions is probably time and money well spent.

You'd think that, but even if this is finally the time that fusion is actually "only 20 years away", we don't have 20 years. We have a little over 10 to fully decarbonize our gird and transportation sectors. The ONLY way to make that happen is to fully nuclearize the grid and retrofit all cars with electric motors and batteries, and to start on it ASAP.

Exceptional? They outnumber humanity! Just because we haven’t done it yet doesn’t mean we won’t. We just need more time and funding.

Sure, the recipe is pretty simple: make a pile of hydrogen about 8% of the sun's mass, and *poof!* instant fusion! A smaller amount of deuterium will work -- I think 2% of the sun's mass will do -- but that's not the easiest to come by.

My favorite attempt to hack into fusion for power is Project PACER. Just because someone during the height of the Cold War thought "Hey, we have all these fusion bombs laying around, why don't we use them for fusion power?"

And then they did the math and realized we'd need a fucking fuckton more nukes than both sides had, just to power the US for a year.

Sure, the recipe is pretty simple: make a pile of hydrogen about 8% of the sun's mass, and *poof!* instant fusion! A smaller amount of deuterium will work -- I think 2% of the sun's mass will do -- but that's not the easiest to come by.

And 2% of the sun's mass is still, quite a lot.

Deuterium also requires specialized plants and energy to make, so if you could hypothetically do it, you'd probably still be operating at a loss.

That's why we wait for fusion development until after we fully nuclearize.

[What R Ye Doin in Muh Swaomp]

GO GO FUSION POWER RANGERS!!!

[Salandriagado]

Except, you know. The sun.

Stellar cores are a bit exceptional there.

Not really. We're routinely making fusion cores that are far more efficient than stellar cores.

[Salandriagado]

Exceptional? They outnumber humanity! Just because we haven’t done it yet doesn’t mean we won’t. We just need more time and funding.

There's only so many more experiments they can attempt. 70-ish years trying with no results except for several false positives doesn't bode well.

You're lying again.

More to the point, that's not unusual:


First photovoltaic experiment: 1839.
First intentional working photovoltaic cell: 1883.
First commercial solar panels: 1955.
Gigawatt-scale solar production: 1999.

[Salandriagado]

It takes more energy than it produces. The reaction lasts a fraction of a fraction of a second. Barring some other incredible discovery it is pointless. This thread would be better spent discussing the fission power we already have which with small risks would solve global warming.

If by "a fraction of a second", you mean minutes, sure. Your first objection can be fixed by simply improving plasma confinement ratios, which we have pretty good ideas on how to do. No incredible breakthroughs are needed, just efficiency improvements.

[Salandriagado]

You appear to have missed the giant fuckoff fusion reactor that already provides 1% of all electricity generation globally.

Do you mean the sun? Or did you click some link that said you wouldn't believe what happens next?

Yes, the sun. It's a rather crappy fusion reactor, as fusion reactors go.

[Salandriagado]

Let's gooo fusion, trillon dollar research grants for something that will benefit all mankind.

70 years of research and nearly a trillion dollars already spent by us taxpayers alone have turned up nothing... just keep that in mind.

You're lying again.

[Vivolkha]

One problem of nuclear fusion research is that way too much effort was thrown into cold fusion (which is impossible) rather than, you know, actual nuclear fusion.

[Grenartia]

One problem of nuclear fusion research is that way too much effort was thrown into cold fusion (which is impossible) rather than, you know, actual nuclear fusion.

That's a toxic way of looking at it, and is a prime example of the hindsight fallacy at work.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Let's gooo fusion, trillon dollar research grants for something that will benefit all mankind.

70 years of research and nearly a trillion dollars already spent by us taxpayers alone have turned up nothing... just keep that in mind.

Wendlstine 7-X tho

[Vivolkha]

One problem of nuclear fusion research is that way too much effort was thrown into cold fusion (which is impossible) rather than, you know, actual nuclear fusion.

That's a toxic way of looking at it, and is a prime example of the hindsight fallacy at work.

Of course, back then, we didn't know that it is not possible. But some people keep insisting; meanwhile, we've sustained actual fusion for minutes.

[UniversalCommons]

Fusion will not solve our problems. We need to build hybrid power plants that can take in any source of electricity. We also need to build a distribution system for energy than can distribute energy anywhere on the grid. People should be able to put energy back into the grid easily. This means if I want to build 200% more energy than I need on my property with solar panels, wind turbines or even biomass pellets, I should be able to do it. This includes an upgrade to prevent loss of distribution with better power lines. It also includes better transmission monitoring so there is less energy loss.

Every single source of alternative energy and even nuclear needs to be developed. This includes upgrading all of the hydroelectric facilities, putting in new wind facilities, upgrading solar plants, introducing geothermal energy, bringing more wave energy plants on line as well as ocean thermal plants. It also means developing smaller scale nuclear plants that don't need to use as high grade of uranium as the big central plants do. It also includes developing automated nuclear recycling to deal with nuclear waste so there is not as much of it.

Part of this would also include better data analysis on where to put wind facilities and solar energy facilities. Where is the best place to put wind power, wave power, hydroelectric power, or solar power based on land use and production of energy.

Fusion is something much longer term.

[Novus America]

Although we should invest more in fusion research we already have fission, so building fission reactors should be our first priority.