School shooting

[Lackadaisical2]

Or NYC in general.

I don't have the statistics, so I wouldn't know, but I don't imagine that "an armed society is a polite society".

New York isn't really known as a hotbed of gun ownership...

[High Vasa]

Actually if our schools were armed camps, they would be much more secure.

You'd really want to learn in such an environment? With armed guards walking around? Barbed wire, defensive walls, military personnel? Fyi: America isn't Iraq. Shit like that isn't needed. At all.

Sorry I had to be productive for a little while.

I never said that an armed boot camp with barbed wire and military personnel was something I wanted, I said it would be more secure and it would be. Keep in mind that the most secure place in the world is solitary confinement within a maximum security prison.

Now lets look at your logic for a moment:
I don't like A.
Using the most convoluted extremems of reductio ad absurdum then A could become Z.
No one likes Z.
Therefore: A will become Z.
So let's stop A now. Problem solved.

let's also ignore the fact that A will prevent X even though everyone is looking for a solution for the problem X

[Alyakia]

the schools weren't armed duh

I don't think you got my point, which is similar to Farnhamia's.

I'm afraid I don't think you get my point either.

[Knowledge for All]

the schools weren't armed duh

I don't think you got my point, which is similar to Farnhamia's.

You wrote:

If armed societies are polite societies, how do you explain the very same school shootings happening?

There is no point stated, only a question posed.

The reply was actually the correct answer to your question.

[DeBoy]

to me i think this all depends on why was there a school shooting there.

[Knowledge for All]

I don't have the statistics, so I wouldn't know, but I don't imagine that "an armed society is a polite society".

New York isn't really known as a hotbed of gun ownership...

It is nearly impossible to get a carry permit in NYC

[Caffeinetopia]

And we don't need to wait for a "massive breakthrough" since we already have plenty of drugs and other methods at our disposal.

A lot of these violent criminals are already on prescribed, mind-altering drugs.

I don't have any stats on this, but from my recollection of various news stories, the trouble seems to happen when troubled people stop taking their meds (or are taking the wrong meds). Either that or they never got help to begin with.

[Andaluciae]

Would this have still happened if other students had guns? Most likely yes.

Unfortunately instead of actually getting to the root of the problem the following things will happen:

1) Anti-gun will blame the Gun nuts for this problem.
2) NRA and other fellow gun nuts will attack the Anti-gun people claiming that this could have been prevented with more guns. Both sides will use trumped up stats that can be interpreted in any way shape or form depending on what the user wants the stats to say.
3) We all climb behind one bandwagon or the other. (the following is tongue in cheek) Start blaming the media, lack of religion or too much religion, video games, twinkies, cheese burgers and Family Guy for the shootings.
4) The root of the problem never gets solved.

Ideal solution: Figure out why the hell the kid did it. Most likely 1) Bullied and felt "he had no other choice any more" 2) Cry for help.

Keep in mind I am not an expert in any field and therefore quote me at your own risk. This is what I firmly think/believe will take place until evidence is thus produced to prove my dumb redneck self wrong.

Note: I am a firearm user/owner and love target shooting and hunting. And yet both the pro/anti gun sides both royally tick me off when something like this occurs.

As an extension, we seem to have collectively glossed over the fact that this kid told the world about this last night. He was desperate for some sort of help that he was not receiving. What he did could have easily been prevented had someone cared just a little bit more, and taken.steps to intervene.

[Samuraikoku]

I don't think you got my point, which is similar to Farnhamia's.

I'm afraid I don't think you get my point either.

Nope, unless you weren't actually serious.

I don't think you got my point, which is similar to Farnhamia's.

You wrote:

If armed societies are polite societies, how do you explain the very same school shootings happening?

There is no point stated, only a question posed.

The reply was actually the correct answer to your question.

I'll explain the point behind the question: If an armed society is a polite society, then that means that citizens would be more polite knowing that others other than then own guns. So my question is: If the school shootings happened against unarmed students, why wouldn't they happen - and WORSEN - if they had been actually armed?

[High Vasa]

A lot of these violent criminals are already on prescribed, mind-altering drugs.

I don't have any stats on this, but from my recollection of various news stories, the trouble seems to happen when troubled people stop taking their meds (or are taking the wrong meds). Either that or they never got help to begin with.

The trouble would still have been stopped with a well placed shot within the "snipers triangle" from the principal or a teacher.

[Knowledge for All]

The real issue is how a high school student obtained a sidearm. The person who made the weapon available is just as accountable.

[Caffeinetopia]

I don't have any stats on this, but from my recollection of various news stories, the trouble seems to happen when troubled people stop taking their meds (or are taking the wrong meds). Either that or they never got help to begin with.

The trouble would still have been stopped with a well placed shot within the "snipers triangle" from the principal or a teacher.

That's a very reactive solution to rely on. Why shouldn't we be more proactive and try to diffuse this kind of stuff before guns get involved?

[Andaluciae]

The real issue is how a high school student obtained a sidearm. The person who made the weapon available is just as accountable.

Bango.

It's illegal for him to purchase either of the firearms he had in that photo, so, where did they come from? Instinct says, not from anywhere legal.

[High Vasa]

The trouble would still have been stopped with a well placed shot within the "snipers triangle" from the principal or a teacher.

That's a very reactive solution to rely on. Why shouldn't we be more proactive and try to diffuse this kind of stuff before guns get involved?

I never claimed we shouldn't, but if and when the time comes, then my solution is a strong one.

[Lackadaisical2]

New York isn't really known as a hotbed of gun ownership...

It is nearly impossible to get a carry permit in NYC

Exactly, not that NYC's homocide rate is that bad either.

[Caffeinetopia]

I don't have any stats on this, but from my recollection of various news stories, the trouble seems to happen when troubled people stop taking their meds (or are taking the wrong meds). Either that or they never got help to begin with.

The trouble would still have been stopped with a well placed shot within the "snipers triangle" from the principal or a teacher.

And what's with this fantasy that an armed teacher (...or a "sniper", I'm not sure what you're talking about in this quote...) would have prevented this? Even if you treated the cafeteria like a prison and had armed guards and snipers, I would imagine the shooter would still be able to get off a few shots.

[Mortelatuza]

that's just sad and worrying
all states should allow guns only for hunters and add classes for psychologicaly troubled students in schools
...but that's only my opinion

[Knowledge for All]

I'll explain the point behind the question: If an armed society is a polite society, then that means that citizens would be more polite knowing that others other than then own guns. So my question is: If the school shootings happened against unarmed students, why wouldn't they happen - and WORSEN - if they had been actually armed?

Because as it is now, guns are not allowed on campus. So, the only threat would be from law enforcement (when they finally arrive). If there was the threat of multiple unknown guns, that is a big deterrent.

If the staff had guns, I can almost guarantee that 5 students wouldn't have been injured by the gunman.

[Galla-]

Or NYC in general.

I don't have the statistics, so I wouldn't know, but I don't imagine that "an armed society is a polite society".

Vermont?

http://gunowners.org/vtcarry.htm

[Samuraikoku]

Because as it is now, guns are not allowed on campus. So, the only threat would be from law enforcement (when they finally arrive). If there was the threat of multiple unknown guns, that is a big deterrent.

If the staff had guns, I can almost guarantee that 5 students wouldn't have been injured by the gunman.

What guarantees me that there wouldn't have been MORE injured students?

[Andaluciae]

It is nearly impossible to get a carry permit in NYC

Exactly, not that NYC's homocide rate is that bad either.

If anything, it is social policy that has far greater bearing on violent crime than any other factor.

As per freakonomics, Roe v Wade has done more to cut crime over the past several decades.

http://www.freakonomics.com/books/freak ... chapter-4/

All while gun laws have witnessed a general lessening of severity.

[Knowledge for All]

Because as it is now, guns are not allowed on campus. So, the only threat would be from law enforcement (when they finally arrive). If there was the threat of multiple unknown guns, that is a big deterrent.

If the staff had guns, I can almost guarantee that 5 students wouldn't have been injured by the gunman.

What guarantees me that there wouldn't have been MORE injured students?

This is life, there are no guarantees.

But, if there was a capable trained armed respondent, the gunman wouldn't have fired enough shots to wound five students.

[Knowledge for All]

I don't have the statistics, so I wouldn't know, but I don't imagine that "an armed society is a polite society".

Vermont?

http://gunowners.org/vtcarry.htm

I have wanted to move to Vermont for quite some time

[Hittanryan]

Guns aren't allowed in schools... all the signs leading up to the school state that. "Gun Free Campus" and things like that.

Changing that will solve the problem. Train the principals, teachers, and select staff on the use of firearms and then require them to be armed while on campus. This will act as a serious deterrent against this type of behavior. It's no accident that shooting rampages are rare (not non-existent, but rare) at pawn shops, shooting ranges, police stations, and military bases. These things happen at schools and shopping malls where the law abiding populace is prevented from protecting themselves.

One of the best slogans I have heard is "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away"

I agree.
9/11 could have been totally stopped had the pilot been armed. That is a fact. A 50 dollar pistol could have done what trillions in the middle east failed to do so far. That's right, 50 bucks could have prevented the worst terrorist act in US history

Or it could've blown holes in the fuselage or destroyed the plane's controls and led to a series of air crashes.

[High Vasa]

Because as it is now, guns are not allowed on campus. So, the only threat would be from law enforcement (when they finally arrive). If there was the threat of multiple unknown guns, that is a big deterrent.

If the staff had guns, I can almost guarantee that 5 students wouldn't have been injured by the gunman.

What guarantees me that there wouldn't have been MORE injured students?

I won't make any guarantees, but if the staff was armed, then we wouldn't be discussing this, the news wouldn't be filled with this topic because the shooters never would have chosen to attack the school. Why didn't they attack the local police station? Because the police station is armed. (Actually, the officers within the station are armed, not the station itself)