Engaging in separatist feminism

[Femnipotent]

ya ya

but

for most of us we dont even notice the sexrole stereotypes that we deal with every day. we dont know that they are having an influence on us so how can we try to end them?

surely a worthwhile first step is to try to figure out what is being pushed on you from the outside and what you really like and want to keep.

Right.

It's a good step, for example, for a woman to understand that she is often unhappy about her body. But it can't stop there.

It is another good step to see that media portrayals of women's bodies influence self-perception, often very negatively. That's not enough either.

It is yet another good step to decide that she does not want those portrayals to continue to affect her self-perception. Great work, but keep going!

It is even better to raise awareness about the problem and discuss it with other affected women and with those who produce the portrayals. Okay, and?

But at some point you have to realise that you cannot fully escape it, and that escaping it is necessary to really undo the damage before you can come back fresh, and swinging, and able to work from a position of power.

This is just ONE small issue and yet it is one that has devastating consequences for women. Add in all the other issues women face and it's easy to understand why some of us feel constantly under attack and unable to properly marshal our defences much less be proactive enough to actually accomplish anything lasting.

The women I work with don't have the luxury of engaging in a self-reflective critique of the socio-political pressures surrounding them. They're just trying to get away from the men who have sexually and physically battered them.

[AiliailiA]

Thanks for that lovely attempt to set the discussion back 50 years.

As if this thread was about genuine feminism to begin with, ha.

No True Scotswoman eh?

[Horsefish]

Your really trying to ram the fact your a vegan home. Any particular reason, because I don't tihnk anyone gives a flying fuck about your dietry prefrences?

That is not what I am doing at all, that is only how you have chosen to interpret it. I have drawn a comparison to my Veganism. You cannot succeed and be healthy as a Vegan unless you engage in more planning that a non-Vegan diet needs. The same is true of this experiment, it will require planning in order to succeed and be healthy.

For further information on the nature of analogies, please visit Wikipedia.

My mistake. It's just I saw you posting it a few times and just assumed it might have something beyond the planning comparison behind it.

[The Emerald Legion]

Seriously? No really. Are you serious?

Because to be honest? If it weren't for a few of the things you said, I wouldn't mind. I'd be curious as to how it turned out, and offer my advice on how to ignore people.
Protip: To ignore people learn to read while walking, f you can read and still pay minimal attention to the world around you, you shouldn't walk into anyone and will know when it's time to pay attention. Headphones are also helpful but dangerous because of the greater detachment from the world around you.

However now All I'm thinking about is just how ridiculous this is. This is right up there with "You can't be sexist against men, because sexism is discrimination by men against women." Or "Girls can't possibly be perverts, but all guys are."

An influence? I could understand that, but a constant oppressive one? Not really. No more than Girls exert a constant oppressive influence on me. And before you say it's different because I'm a guy, that's a lie. Yes there are differences, ability to tell jerks to go jump off a cliff is not one of them, as my mom can attest to.

At first I thought of it as "Meet the bear in it's own cave before deciding to live with it" You felt you were constantly "In public" When around guys and thus wanted to see what would happen when not. But some of the rest is just plain ridiculous. Anyone who criticizes your (Over-generalistic, Yes guys can be jerks so can girls. Hence why I hate humanity and want to be a machine.) statements is just trying to opress you? All guys everywhere are predatory and aggressive? The second is blatantly false. Heck I'm a guy. I'm so un-aggressive that it takes a great amount of effort merely to get people to realize I'm there sometimes. Waving of hands and eventually raising my voice above the not-quite-a-whisper I usually speak in.

Also theres a tip for ignoring people in this post. Look carefully and you'll find it. Unfortunately it isn't hidden that well. I hate this forum system. It doesn't let you do whitetext style.

[Tahar Joblis]

Fair enough, but you ignored the second part of the post. Am I inherently a bad person, with oppressive characteristics because I was born a male?

You are a male within a society that is specifically geared towards promoting what are supposedly "male" interests, and you are as shaped by social gender norms as I am. However my gender norms allow me to be statistically more likely to be raped, abused, murdered, and thrust into poverty that you. You may personally even be more disadvantaged than I am, but until I can get as far away from men as a class as possible, I do not think I can go much further with a critical analysis of what it means to me to be a woman outside of the patriarchy. So if means cutting out supposed 'exceptions', I think that's a small price to pay.

I'm with the people who say you're not going to get anywhere productive with this on the basis that:

(A) Women are the primary enforcers of the feminine gender role on other women. [Just as men are w.r.t. other men for the masculine role.]
(B) Some of what you're saying is counterfactual. E.g., men are murdered far more often than women (this is not new), and are less likely to find work than women when they are trying (this is a relatively recent development). This is a sign that you've been working in the wrong direction in your "analysis" already. Your data is bad. Do real research.
(C) Separating yourself from men will not grant you new data about the behavior of men, of women, or even of women "outside of the patriarchy," as you are still participating in mainstream society; you simply have restricted your interaction to a smaller segment thereof.
(D) Separating yourself from men will make it easier to engage in simplistic thinking and vilification. This is why all-white suburban communities tend to generate racists.

There are plenty of women who already only interact with a very limited subset of men, and men who already only interact with a very limited subset of women. (Women who have only other female friends and men who have only other male friends, with the sometimes-exception of a boyfriend/girlfriend with whom their interactions are highly stylized.) I am not of the opinion that these 'naturally separated' persons are granted particular insight into gender relations; on the contrary, their limited exposure to the other gender allows them to hold numerous counterfactual beliefs.

I would recommend that, instead of narrowing your social life (which is, from what you describe, one which is already very narrow, and involves only the most superficial interactions with men), you take the step of broadening your reading list.

[Gauthier]

Because asking people to discuss your choices on a debate forum is not the same as just ordering a vegan meal, constructive critism and discussion are not "getting in [one's] face," and the dismissal of well-though out responses are what people seem to be objecting to more than the original experiment.

yeah they are objecting to assumptions that they are making about the extent and purpose of an experiment that seems to be so threatening that they cant even do it as a THOUGHT experiment.

instead of kneejerk reacting to the horror of cutting men out of her life for half a year try imagining how YOU would do a similar thing and how it might work out. start by thinking what good things might happen if you did it.

Nobody should care she wants to cut off men from her life. It's that condescending "Men are the cause of all evils and troubles" attitude that's annoying and provoking the snarky responses.

[Kazomal]

1. Don't forget about the domestic abuse that millions of men 'suck up.' If you're going to argue unreported crimes, we can speculate back and forth all day, but this is what the data, and my experience, says.

I'm not, it just isn't as widespread. Any even vague extrapolation of the crime statistics and anecdotal evidence will show you that.

2. Men and women are both born into low and subservient classes, and from that position, the women in those classes are more able to move up in class than a man born into that class.

I'm not really sure that's true, and if you think that marrying someone richer than yourself is a fast-track to societal improvement, you've never seen how the rich treat arrivistes, and nor have you really examined what class is. Some working class girl a rich man fancies is not especially likely to go on to be a judge or politician, they're likely to get fucked between visits to the misstress and left at home to help the man write parliamentary reports or look after the kids on a steady dripfeed of pinot grigio, shopping and valium.

You aren't born poor by being a women you're born poor by being poor.

No, but I think you are born disadvantaged by being a woman.

Of course, there are unique disadvantages that women in poverty face.

Of course, which is why they should be flippantly brushed aside.

3. More and more are in The Professions, it's growing every day. It will continue to do so, since more and more women have the opportunity to get a college education, and this a very good thing.

Mmhmm, but I still think you'll find that there are vastly more stay-at-home mothers than fathers.

1. You're wrong here, but feel free to speculate away. Stereotypes and societal myths =/= facts
2. I'm not talking about marrying up, I'm talking about going to college and/or getting a white collar job that pays well. People do not hire blue-collar or poor men for white-collar jobs. As a blue-collar or below man, you are worth only the labor you can squeeze from your body until you break and die. As a women form similar socio-economic backgrounds, it is easier to find a job that will allow you to raise yourself up.
3. Probably, and that's a concern, but it doesn't change what I said about more women than men graduating from college, and the increasing number of women entering and excelling at science, math, business, politics, etc.

As for your snide little attack, I wasn't flippantly brushing aside anything, I was acknowledging a real problem, rather than being a blind ideologue. Don't be like that.

[Femnipotent]

You really, truly, extremely have no bloody idea what the hell true oppression is. Your definition is simply someone finding fallacies in your arguments. I haven't seen any posts by males that are misogynistic at all.

You confuse my understanding of oppression with my unwillingness to put up with people who apparently only wish to insult and berate.

And don't worry, I am not relying on your sight at all.

[Seibertron]

You really, truly, extremely have no bloody idea what the hell true oppression is. Your definition is simply someone finding fallacies in your arguments. I haven't seen any posts by males that are misogynistic at all.

You confuse my understanding of oppression with my unwillingness to put up with people who apparently only wish to insult and berate.

And don't worry, I am not relying on your sight at all.

Go on then post a quote that you find Misogynistic

[Norstal]

I have no doubt this thread will soon fill with vitriol and ridicule. For those of you who do not participate in such pointless behaviour, I would very much like to discuss the logistics of such an experiment. I do not have the money to live in a female-only community somewhere, nor can I move out of the city, or quit my job and schooling. I have some ideas of how I can limit exposure and contact, but of course it will not be completely possible to cut men out of my life 100% for an entire six months.



tl;dr: I wish to live as a separatist feminist for a period of six months in order to clarify my feminism as much as possible removed from male influence, and am looking for practical suggestions on how this can be accomplished.

Depends on what you view as feminist or masculinist. If you explained this earlier, sorry I don't have the heart to trawl back the 11 pages of the thread.

I would try just living in a women's shelter. Those are usually free, I think. Does the 6 months have to be continuous? If not, you can rent out an RV for one month and live somewhere isolated, then do it again once you have the money.

[Wikkiwallana]

True, but we are likewise under no obligations to care one whit about anything she says until she does, either.

Also true, but just as the President lives rent-free in YGO's head, Femnipotent seems to be taking up residence in a number of crania hereabouts. I think the experiment is interesting. Only some of the criticism of it here has been constructive.

Oh, I agree that there has been a good-sized portion of destructive criticism, maybe as much as 50% of it. But I wouldn't say she's taken up living in heads yet, the thread is new and a diversion from the endless cycles of elections, science vs fundamentalists, scandal, economics, and current events. Give it a little while to lose the shine and most of us will drift back out of here again.

[Seibertron]

I think it has been agreed all extremism is stupid, feminist, Islamic, politcal etc.

[Femnipotent]

i do find it ODD how threatened people are by someone else's choice to be vegan. im not interested in veganism myself (or in raw foods which my sister has been focusing on on youtube lately) but why would i get in the face of anyone who makes that decision?

the same with this experiment. why is it so threatening instead of being something ... intruiging ... that a thread reader could run around their own head to see how it might affect their own lives if they tried it for a short while?

Again, comparing it with Veganism...

I have found that people tend to read in all sorts of motivations for your choices, after which they will then choose to take offense. So some people assume that if you are a Vegan, it means that you condemn them for eating animal products and then, without you ever saying any such thing, they believe you have attacked them and accused them of all sorts of things. The whole thought process often lasts no longer than a few seconds and there you are, wondering what on the earth is going on.

Seems to be the case here as well. Look at the various motivations ascribed to me, after which that foundation of assumption is built upon and the edifice grows higher and higher. Don't try to attack the foundation, because the structure depends on it!

Although the weirdest accusations are always about how what I eat, or what I do is so super harmful.

[Voremir]

These I consider facts:
The balance of power throughout history has overwhelmingly been in favour of anatomically male individuals.
Anatomically female individuals have much more to fear from unknown anatomic males than visa versa, on average, by simple gender dimorphism as well as a long history of differential legal response to such attacks.
Safe spaces are a valuable idea, so that ideas can be talked over without voices being silenced by the presence of those that are under discussion.

So far, so good. That said:

The original poster gives a strong impression of not just wanting to explore their ideas, but to use them to make herself feel special and superior. The oft-mentioned veganism seems to have been thrown in people’s faces as evidence of moral superiority, judging by the obsession with those that don’t agree.

This entire thread smacks of someone, rather than seeking advice, instead announcing to the world their special and superior position, in which their insights are crucial and valuable. Sealing oneself into a very small group who hold identical views will rapidly cause self congratulatory extremism of those opinions, a smug certainty that only they hold the truth. Ideas are tested and developed by contrasting them against opposing viewpoints.

In short, then: I wish the OP luck in her self-imposed quest to never speak to someone who disagrees with her ever again, but the moral virtue of such an experiment is zero and its significance to anyone else equally void.

[Demonatrix]

She's been pushing that as another example of right on eco friendly with it neo-feminism, thats getting her oppression from the phallocentric conspiracy (they want to feed her their sausages) and the brainwashed sex slaves who have internalised their supposed female inferiority by not dressing as bad copies of james dean...

Yes, I'm sure she wears nothing but plaid shirts (sans bra, natch) and shit jeans. You people, honestly...

Technically, I'm a bi curious lesbian, not that it matters, I find her dismissive approach to all males, and most women quite bizarre and all too common, it's why I don't drink in Vanilla's in the village, I got tired of the abuse from the Boi's... It's a sterotype, but it's an accurate one, take a walk down Canal St. on a saturday night, there are plenty of them, seems the lesbian community just has to follow the 'clone' trend too, not a proper feminist hardliner lesbian if you don't wear Lesbian clothes (tm) from a Lesbian Store (tm) and drink in a Lesbian Bar (tm)...

[Wikkiwallana]

ya ya

but

for most of us we dont even notice the sexrole stereotypes that we deal with every day. we dont know that they are having an influence on us so how can we try to end them?

surely a worthwhile first step is to try to figure out what is being pushed on you from the outside and what you really like and want to keep.

Right.

It's a good step, for example, for a woman to understand that she is often unhappy about her body. But it can't stop there.

It is another good step to see that media portrayals of women's bodies influence self-perception, often very negatively. That's not enough either.

It is yet another good step to decide that she does not want those portrayals to continue to affect her self-perception. Great work, but keep going!

It is even better to raise awareness about the problem and discuss it with other affected women and with those who produce the portrayals. Okay, and?

But at some point you have to realise that you cannot fully escape it, and that escaping it is necessary to really undo the damage before you can come back fresh, and swinging, and able to work from a position of power.

This is just ONE small issue and yet it is one that has devastating consequences for women. Add in all the other issues women face and it's easy to understand why some of us feel constantly under attack and unable to properly marshal our defences much less be proactive enough to actually accomplish anything lasting.

The women I work with don't have the luxury of engaging in a self-reflective critique of the socio-political pressures surrounding them. They're just trying to get away from the men who have sexually and physically battered them.

Ok, see, this is the first fully reasoned out, and indeed reasonable, explanation of the purpose behind the separation you have given all thread. Was it so hard to do this and give an explanation that didn't come across as "mere contact with men corrupts me"?

[Gauthier]

Yes, I'm sure she wears nothing but plaid shirts (sans bra, natch) and shit jeans. You people, honestly...

Technically, I'm a bi curious lesbian, not that it matters, I find her dismissive approach to all males, and most women quite bizarre and all too common, it's why I don't drink in Vanilla's in the village, I got tired of the abuse from the Boi's... It's a sterotype, but it's an accurate one, take a walk down Canal St. on a saturday night, there are plenty of them, seems the lesbian community just has to follow the 'clone' trend too, not a proper feminist hardliner lesbian if you don't wear Lesbian clothes (tm) from a Lesbian Store (tm) and drink in a Lesbian Bar (tm)...

Do they make you register for Lesbian ID as well?

[Ashmoria]

yeah they are objecting to assumptions that they are making about the extent and purpose of an experiment that seems to be so threatening that they cant even do it as a THOUGHT experiment.

instead of kneejerk reacting to the horror of cutting men out of her life for half a year try imagining how YOU would do a similar thing and how it might work out. start by thinking what good things might happen if you did it.

Nobody should care she wants to cut off men from her life. It's that condescending "Men are the cause of all evils and troubles" attitude that's annoying and provoking the snarky responses.

i suppose

but a little trip into seperatism should cure her of this notion if she actually has this notion.

[Wikkiwallana]

Seriously? No really. Are you serious?

Because to be honest? If it weren't for a few of the things you said, I wouldn't mind. I'd be curious as to how it turned out, and offer my advice on how to ignore people.
Protip: To ignore people learn to read while walking, f you can read and still pay minimal attention to the world around you, you shouldn't walk into anyone and will know when it's time to pay attention. Headphones are also helpful but dangerous because of the greater detachment from the world around you.

However now All I'm thinking about is just how ridiculous this is. This is right up there with "You can't be sexist against men, because sexism is discrimination by men against women." Or "Girls can't possibly be perverts, but all guys are."

An influence? I could understand that, but a constant oppressive one? Not really. No more than Girls exert a constant oppressive influence on me. And before you say it's different because I'm a guy, that's a lie. Yes there are differences, ability to tell jerks to go jump off a cliff is not one of them, as my mom can attest to.

At first I thought of it as "Meet the bear in it's own cave before deciding to live with it" You felt you were constantly "In public" When around guys and thus wanted to see what would happen when not. But some of the rest is just plain ridiculous. Anyone who criticizes your (Over-generalistic, Yes guys can be jerks so can girls. Hence why I hate humanity and want to be a machine.) statements is just trying to opress you? All guys everywhere are predatory and aggressive? The second is blatantly false. Heck I'm a guy. I'm so un-aggressive that it takes a great amount of effort merely to get people to realize I'm there sometimes. Waving of hands and eventually raising my voice above the not-quite-a-whisper I usually speak in.

Also theres a tip for ignoring people in this post. Look carefully and you'll find it. Unfortunately it isn't hidden that well. I hate this forum system. It doesn't let you do whitetext style.

Yes it does.

[Femnipotent]

1. Being sarcastically mocked on the internet is not abuse.

Talking about how a 'message' is delivered in a broader sense is not confining the discussion to internet posts. Think bigger.

2. No one is saying that being abused is noble. The point, which you seemed to miss, is that a valid argument is still valid even if contained within the context of mockery. Vitriol + a valid argument is still a valid argument. Sure, you may be annoyed at the vitriol, but it does not invalidate the logic of an argument. To suggest otherwise is to reject logic itself.

Oh I think it's quite implied in a number of areas of our society that enduring abuse is indeed noble, and that you learn things from it and become stronger for it. It allows us to justify continued abuses by pretending they are actually learning opportunities.

If we confine the discussion to internet posts, as I mentioned before I think the way you deliver a message is as important as the message itself. This is not me claiming higher ground as some serene queen who never descends off her throne to mock or roll my eyes at those I consider stupid or infantile. However, I do not really care what some of you have to say when the only way you can say it is to assume, attack, and just plain make shit up. So please don't try to convince me that I should put up with some of the shit being spewed here because if I did down in the pile enough I'll find gems I couldn't possibly get anywhere else.

[Norstal]

Ok, see, this is the first fully reasoned out, and indeed reasonable, explanation of the purpose behind the separation you have given all thread. Was it so hard to do this and give an explanation that didn't come across as "mere contact with men corrupts me"?

When you think about it, men have an easier time avoiding women that women avoiding men. See: being a Catholic priest...without nuns.

So, I don't think it really matters what her reasons are.

[Kazomal]

yeah they are objecting to assumptions that they are making about the extent and purpose of an experiment that seems to be so threatening that they cant even do it as a THOUGHT experiment.

instead of kneejerk reacting to the horror of cutting men out of her life for half a year try imagining how YOU would do a similar thing and how it might work out. start by thinking what good things might happen if you did it.

No, most are objecting to, or really, responding to things that the OP is saying, not their own assumptions.

Many of us have started out engaging the thought experiment, but when we express on opinions on it, we're attacked.

The experiment isn't threatening to me. Though I don't think it's a good idea, I have wished the OP well on it. I don't have to agree or gtfo.

[Femnipotent]

I just had a revelation. You have said that women are more likely raped and abused, well what about that fact that a female is more likely to have a lighter sentence for abusing or even molesting a boy than a male doing the same to a girl?

I just had a revelation! People often ignore the greater issue of abuse of women by pointing out that some women abuse too! I don't know if there is a name for that kind of behaviour, after all I have just discovered it!

[Mosasauria]

ya ya

but

for most of us we dont even notice the sexrole stereotypes that we deal with every day. we dont know that they are having an influence on us so how can we try to end them?

surely a worthwhile first step is to try to figure out what is being pushed on you from the outside and what you really like and want to keep.

Right.

It's a good step, for example, for a woman to understand that she is often unhappy about her body. But it can't stop there.[1]

It is another good step to see that media portrayals of women's bodies influence self-perception, often very negatively. That's not enough either.[2]

It is yet another good step to decide that she does not want those portrayals to continue to affect her self-perception. Great work, but keep going![3]

It is even better to raise awareness about the problem and discuss it with other affected women and with those who produce the portrayals. Okay, and?[4]

But at some point you have to realise that you cannot fully escape it, and that escaping it is necessary to really undo the damage before you can come back fresh, and swinging, and able to work from a position of power.[5]

This is just ONE small issue and yet it is one that has devastating consequences for women. Add in all the other issues women face and it's easy to understand why some of us feel constantly under attack and unable to properly marshal our defences much less be proactive enough to actually accomplish anything lasting.[6]

The women I work with don't have the luxury of engaging in a self-reflective critique of the socio-political pressures surrounding them. They're just trying to get away from the men who have sexually and physically battered them.[7]

1. Welcome to Earth. Nobody is perfect. Everyone is unhappy with their body in some way, whether male, female, black, white, asian, hispanic, tall, or short.
2.This I agree with you on. Except this also applies to men. The media portrays both genders stereotypically. When was the last time you saw a man as the supporting character with a heroine as the main character? Or a lanky short guy in any role? Or perhaps a flat-chested woman as the hero?
Or, alternatively, a black man who isn't used in a blackxploitation role?
The media is terrible towards everyone.
3. This is something I would commend anyone for doing.
However, you seem to be under the impression that this is exclusive to women.
4. This. 1,000x this.
5. Yes. And because you cannot escape, what do you do? Do everything you can to change it. Give it all you've got. Make society realize that something is wrong.
6. Once again, you seem to be under the impression that these feelings are exclusive to women.
7. So you actually have been near many women who have been physically abused and/or raped? It's a terrible thing when a person violates another... Always is.

[Ecans]

If you expect people to respect your opinions without justification then you are living in a fantasy world. Note that I said people, not men. It seems to me that you view men through a special filter. Perhaps a bit of maturity angst is in play here...

I think she's explained her reasoning quite well. She's under no obligation to "justify" herself to anyone unless she chooses to do so.

Wrong. If one is in a business setting, opinions must be justified constantly. If one is raising children, opinions and actions must be justified to partner(s), relatives, friends and even the law. That's the real world. We all must justify our opinions, decisions and actions. You are no different.