Religion in Schools

[Divine Unity]

The Bible as a WHOLE is a guide to living a moral life, in addition to an ancient Jewish historical myths and explanations.
Now, obviously, we take the new testament a little more literally, partially because it was also written down within a relatively short time of it happening (as opposed to the Old Testament, which was often passed down via Oral Tradition for hundreds of years before being written down. And like any good game of telephone will tell you, people don't always get the details the same every time). Also, the Old Testament was often the attempts of the Jews to explain the world around them, and link them back to God.

Does Catholicism teach Creationism, and condemn Evolution?

Nope. But that's in the Bible...

Does Catholicism encourage violence?

No (you can make the crusades argument and all those other things, but I can make the: that's not really following Christian teachings argument, and bla bla bla... Look at the Church today, and tell me where Pope JP2 or Benedict has encouraged Violence).

Point is, the Catholic Church, and Christianity in general, don't teach or think that God is vindictive, or that God is killing anyone. Point is, that people think Christianity does believe that God kills "non-believers" is precisely the reason WHY we need more public schools to have a class that teaches them the common misconceptions about different religions.
After 15 years of Catholic Schools, I'm still learning about what my faith actually teaches. We definitely need to encourage broad spectrum understandings of major faiths.

Well, alright, I'll assume all you said is true. Although you should keep in mind that there are certain sects that takes the Bible literally. I know that the Catholic church, now, is generally peaceful.

Yeah, I should state, for the record, that as the Psycho-Devout-Priest-to-be, I really only speak for Catholicism.
The Catholics who actually understand their own faith, are the more peaceful and such...

Of course, I recognize that anything can be taken and corrupted and used for personal gain. Catholicism has certainly seen more than its fair share of corruption and selfishness. But I don't believe that is what the Catholic Church stands for (particularly not now), and therefore I stand by it.

I'm also really happy that you are open enough to listen to me. I henceforth give to you, hug.

[Avenio]

1) Egypt had enslaved Israel for nearly 400 years, so yeah, retribution was coming. I'm kinda sad that Egypt didn't see it coming.

Enslaved? Not really. Though the New Kingdom has de facto control over Canaan, the local authorities were left to largely their own devices starting with Thutmose III. I'd note as well that the Egyptians didn't believe in wholesale slavery either; in most cases, slaves were trophies captured in war by the nobles or occasionally debt slaves. They really didn't have a whole lot of use for them as labour; the peasant class, which was out of work for months of the year due to the flooding of the Nile, filled that role quite nicely.

And finally, the notion that 2 million Hebrews were even in Egypt at all is questionable; there may have been small numbers of them as part of the much, much earlier agglomeration of peoples known as the Hyksos that took over part of Egypt and thus may have been assimilated into Egyptian society, and there have may have been Hebrew mercenaries in the service of the pharoahs, as in later times, but most of what's described in Exodus is by and large myth.

On that note, and further on topic, this is in fact one of the things that I think should be addressed in teaching any comparative religion in schools; their doctrines need to be thoroughly analyzed historically in order for students to understand some of the complexities of where these religions come from and why they say the things they do. I imagine that if most Christians took a university-quality course in the history and culture of the ancient Near East, their views on their religion would be substantially different, likely for the better.

EDIT: Changed for clarity.

[Divine Unity]

Ok so I think a major point is being missed in the arguements religion no matter which one and i speak for my own( catholocism) breeds disputes and violence see the crusades or the jihads therefore should religion be in a country that has a seperation between church and state the answer is not in state funded schools

Eh, I cordially disagree.
Religion itself does not breed violence, and neither Catholicism (which I know pretty well, I think) nor Islam (which is actually the religion I'm studying right now in my religious studies class) actually encourage violence.

For example, name the Speaker: "Not one of you believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself."

That would be Muhammad. Gosh... Sounds a lot like Jesus, which is all about PEACE.

[The Germania Alliance]

Religion in school?

Maybe. However, religion should not be forced upon the students, just something they could learn if they wish.

[United Republic of S1lv]

Also teach the Athiest arguments as well because though it isn't a religious but it is still fast growing belief replacing religion.

[Divine Unity]

1) Egypt had enslaved Israel for nearly 400 years, so yeah, retribution was coming. I'm kinda sad that Egypt didn't see it coming.

Enslaved? Not really. Though the New Kingdom has de facto control over Canaan, the local authorities were left to largely their own devices starting with Thutmose III. I'd note as well that the Egyptians didn't believe in wholesale slavery either; in most cases, slaves were trophies captured in war by the nobles or occasionally debt slaves. They really didn't have a whole lot of use for them as labour; the peasant class, which was out of work for months of the year due to the flooding of the Nile, filled that role quite nicely.

And finally, the notion that 2 million Hebrews were even in Egypt at all is questionable; there may have been small numbers of them as part of the much, much earlier agglomeration of peoples known as the Hyksos that took over part of Egypt and thus may have been assimilated into Egyptian society, and there have may have been Hebrew mercenaries in the service of the pharoahs, as in later times, but most of what's described in Exodus is by and large myth.

On that note, and further on topic, this is in fact one of the things that I think should be addressed in teaching any comparative religion in schools; their doctrines need to be thoroughly analyzed historically in order for students to understand some of the complexities of where these religions come from and why they say the things they do. I imagine that if most Christians took a course in the history and culture of the ancient Near East, their views on their religion would be substantially different, likely for the better.

Exodus, Old Testament, Jewish Myth, Understanding Religious Beliefs and Cultures, and Improving World Relations.

I agree with everything you said.
I think we should be BFFs.

[Norstal]

Also teach the Athiest arguments as well because though it isn't a religious but it is still fast growing belief replacing religion.

In a Comparative Religion class? Sure. I think people should understand that being an atheist doesn't mean you have no afterlife and your life is meaningless.

[Divine Unity]

Also teach the Athiest arguments as well because though it isn't a religious but it is still fast growing belief replacing religion.

In a Comparative Religion class? Sure. I think people should understand that being an atheist doesn't mean you have no afterlife and your life is meaningless.

Woah, a little un-needed dear Norstal. I think there is room for an atheistic portion, provided that it doesn't actually attack other religions' beliefs or reasoning.
An Atheistic portion would simply give their reasons for believing what they believe, like any other religion. I certainly wouldn't approve of having the chapter on Christianity attacking Islam. I wouldn't approve of an Atheism chapter attacking any other religion.

[Avenio]

Exodus, Old Testament, Jewish Myth, Understanding Religious Beliefs and Cultures, and Improving World Relations.

I agree with everything you said.
I think we should be BFFs.

More than that, though. Things like understanding Sumerian mythology and its relation to the Hebrew creation myth (ex the close relationship between the Enuma Elis and Genesis), the origins of monotheism in the Near East (Assur, Zoroastrianism, etc), and the history of the Fertile Crescent from practically 3000 BCE to 0 BCE would be extremely helpful. It's important to understand that religions don't develop in isolation, and act as cultural sponges as they develop, absorbing characteristics and theology as they go, and their often long and storied relationship with history.

[Jinos]

Religion has no place in educational institutes of any kind.

[Divine Unity]

In a Comparative Religion class? Sure. I think people should understand that being an atheist doesn't mean you have no afterlife and your life is meaningless.

Woah, a little un-needed dear Norstal. I think there is room for an atheistic portion, provided that it doesn't actually attack other religions' beliefs or reasoning.
An Atheistic portion would simply give their reasons for believing what they believe, like any other religion. I certainly wouldn't approve of having the chapter on Christianity attacking Islam. I wouldn't approve of an Atheism chapter attacking any other religion.

I'm sorry, Norstal. I misread your post.
I thought what you were saying was more like "Atheist DO believe that you have no afterlife and your life is meaningless".
Hence my concern. However, I went back and re-read your post, and realized that you pretty much said the opposite.

[Norstal]

Woah, a little un-needed dear Norstal. I think there is room for an atheistic portion, provided that it doesn't actually attack other religions' beliefs or reasoning.
An Atheistic portion would simply give their reasons for believing what they believe, like any other religion. I certainly wouldn't approve of having the chapter on Christianity attacking Islam. I wouldn't approve of an Atheism chapter attacking any other religion.

I'm sorry, Norstal. I misread your post.
I thought what you were saying was more like "Atheist DO believe that you have no afterlife and your life is meaningless".
Hence my concern. However, I went back and re-read your post, and realized that you pretty much said the opposite.

Silly priest, I thought I made it clear that I'm an atheist.

[Divine Unity]

Exodus, Old Testament, Jewish Myth, Understanding Religious Beliefs and Cultures, and Improving World Relations.

I agree with everything you said.
I think we should be BFFs.

More than that, though. Things like understanding Sumerian mythology and its relation to the Hebrew creation myth (ex the close relationship between the Enuma Elis and Genesis), the origins of monotheism in the Near East (Assur, Zoroastrianism, etc), and the history of the Fertile Crescent from practically 3000 BCE to 0 BCE would be extremely helpful. It's important to understand that religions don't develop in isolation, and act as cultural sponges as they develop, absorbing characteristics and theology as they go, and their often long and storied relationship with history.

Again, I agree. We studied those in my Religious Studies class, and I found it all incredibly fascinating. And It makes so much more sense now too!

[Maroza]

I'm sure having people learn about religions in class wouldn't be a bad thing if you made sure the teachers didn't say one religion was right or wrong. If you ignore something and don't teach it to anyone people will not understand it and soon you'll have mass fear of religions or foreign ones. Look throughout human history and today, humans are naturally afraid of things they don't understand, its one of the reasons why some people in the western world have a phobia of Islam. The more you understand about foreign things the less irrational fear you have, the less irrational fear you have the less hate comes from that fear.

[Divine Unity]

I'm sorry, Norstal. I misread your post.
I thought what you were saying was more like "Atheist DO believe that you have no afterlife and your life is meaningless".
Hence my concern. However, I went back and re-read your post, and realized that you pretty much said the opposite.

Silly priest, I thought I made it clear that I'm an atheist.

You did. But I thought you were insulting Atheism, and I was like "woah, none of that", then I was like "woah, I can't read"....

Apology hug.

And I'm not a priest... yet... On my way though.

[Divine Unity]

I'm sure having people learn about religions in class wouldn't be a bad thing if you made sure the teachers didn't say one religion was right or wrong. If you ignore something and don't teach it to anyone people will not understand it and soon you'll have mass fear of religions or foreign ones. Look throughout human history and today, humans are naturally afraid of things they don't understand, its one of the reasons why some people in the western world have a phobia of Islam. The more you understand about foreign things the less irrational fear you have, the less irrational fear you have the less hate comes from that fear.

And this, my friends, is why I support having Religious Classes in School. Because Maroza is right.

What do we LOSE by educating people on what different religions believe?!

Yes, I have issue with a public school favoring one religion (or religion at all), but that is an entirely separate issue.

[Norstal]

Silly priest, I thought I made it clear that I'm an atheist.

You did. But I thought you were insulting Atheism, and I was like "woah, none of that", then I was like "woah, I can't read"....

Apology hug.

And I'm not a priest... yet... On my way though.

Also, I need to say that the other point I was making was that Christianity itself can't achieve world peace, even if everyone were to follow the Bible. That was the whole argument I was trying to make, although it seems that the poster gracefully rescinded over this.

Yes, Catholicism is peaceful, but if everyone was Catholic, it would still not make the world peaceful. For one, I'm not overly optimistic. Two, no matter what your priests say about the Bible, people will still interpret the Bible on their own. Passages as the ones I describe, along with independent translators of the Bible (Sunday schools) still differ from the mainstream and can be dangerously interpreted as something else.

When it all comes down to it, I'm not blaming the religion. I'm blaming the people, and perhaps the people who wrote the scriptures and such for making exaggerated stories. Which is why I support a non-biased, non-indoctrinated religious education. The whole idea of a Comparative Religion class is to shoot down any misconceptions one might have about religions and to explain the basic concepts of each (major) religion and beliefs.

I'd also add that such classes should be taught within it some semblance of Humanism and it should be geared towards Philosophy.

I actually think it's great that Catholicism has gotten more liberal over the years. I just don't think that any religion nor any belief can guarantee world peace.

[Saint Jade IV]

They do. It's called your lunchbreak.





I don't know much about America, but I do know that every time a Christian in Australia says these things, its usually a privilege that they previously were given that they aren't anymore. Like the privilege to force students to participate in religious education classes. Or the right to proselytise in schools through the chaplaincy program. The state of NSW is currently receiving backlash from Christians bitching about their marginalisation because the education department wanted to introduce secular ethics classes for non-Christian or non-religious students during the Religious Education time. Note - there is no attempt to remove the required time for Religious Education. The law used to be that non-religious, or non-Christian students were exempted from the class. They could not be taught anything during this time, as this would disadvantage those students in RE classes. The government simply said, "Maybe, we should teach these kids something about ethics or stuff during this time, so that they are not sitting around twiddling their thumbs because they can't receive instruction in the curriculum."

Similarly, with the chaplaincy program, the funding rules changed so that if a school thought it was more appropriate, they could elect to have a non-religious person, with say, actual counseling qualifications in place of a Christian chaplain with no counseling qualifications. Again, the Christians bitched about their rights being violated.

You realize you just repeated exactly what I said. Please go back and read.

Yeah, so I did that. You stated that students have time in free time or lunchbreaks for Christian clubs. You also stated that you believed that they should be given time to pray. I took this to mean that you expected additional time outside of lunchbreaks and free time to pray. Since, you already covered that groups specifically for Christian students exist.

My point with what I said is that I simply don't agree that the rights of Christians have ever actually been taken away. I've never seen one example where the rights of an actual Christian person have been taken away because of an atheist/agnostic/insert-religion-here. I've seen a lot of examples of Christians bitching because their privileges were taken away and screaming "ZOMGS religious persecution" because they weren't allowed to continue persecuting other religions/non-religious people. They didn't lose any rights whatsoever. They didn't really lose anything. So I'm utterly confused by your statement.

[Divine Unity]

You did. But I thought you were insulting Atheism, and I was like "woah, none of that", then I was like "woah, I can't read"....

Apology hug.

And I'm not a priest... yet... On my way though.

Also, I need to say that the other point I was making was that Christianity itself can't achieve world peace, even if everyone were to follow the Bible. That was the whole argument I was trying to make, although it seems that the poster gracefully rescinded over this.

Yes, Catholicism is peaceful, but if everyone was Catholic, it would still not make the world peaceful. For one, I'm not overly optimistic. Two, no matter what your priests say about the Bible, people will still interpret the Bible on their own. Passages as the ones I describe, along with independent translators of the Bible (Sunday schools) still differ from the mainstream and can be dangerously interpreted as something else.

When it all comes down to it, I'm not blaming the religion. I'm blaming the people, and perhaps the people who wrote the scriptures and such for making exaggerated stories. Which is why I support a non-biased, non-indoctrinated religious education. The whole idea of a Comparative Religion class is to shoot down any misconceptions one might have about religions and to explain the basic concepts of each (major) religion and beliefs.

I'd also add that such classes should be taught within it some semblance of Humanism and it should be geared towards Philosophy.

I actually think it's great that Catholicism has gotten more liberal over the years. I just don't think that any religion nor any belief can guarantee world peace.

No, of course no religion can guarantee that.
We are what we are, and what we are (no matter what your faith or lack there-of is) is a bunch of flawed humans trying to survive, and be happy. We find different ways to do so, and we interpret things the way we are taught to or want to.

Faith or no faith, human nature is still inherently aimed towards doing whatever it takes to get what we want.

You and I should be friends, dear friend.

[Romania Mare1]

Religion is not to be taught as a belief in any school, at least where I live. One can study the beliefs of a religion objectively in any history class, but generally no public school will hold prayers or teach doctrine.

Good for ye
In Romania religion in schools = ORTHODOXY indoctrination in schools and i am DAMN SERIOUS.All my classmates (who aren't mentally retarded or brain dead ) can confirm
We are sort of forced to do it.Why ? Because it help raise the grades for some of us and if we don't do it others will and then we have to get higher education and grades matter and you know where this is going
While most might refuse it IF IT WASN'T forced on us from day one,(and this goes on for 12 grades ) they won't if it's already put in our program (lazy-asses ).What can an atheist do ? Well,he can opt out and stay in the class and do nothing for an hour.Greeeeat achievement.Just great.We just sit there while others grades raise.
Romania needs to be sued like shit but sadly it doesn't happen.I am telling you,it's PURE indoctrination.We speak about orthodox saints,Christ and so on.I don't remember to have had a lesson about Islam during that class EVER.I did once in my HISTORY class but not my ''religion'' class. This is just shit,i am telling you guys,it frustrates me to no end

[United Republic of S1lv]

Religion is not to be taught as a belief in any school, at least where I live. One can study the beliefs of a religion objectively in any history class, but generally no public school will hold prayers or teach doctrine.

Good for ye
In Romania religion in schools = ORTHODOXY indoctrination in schools and i am DAMN SERIOUS.All my classmates (who aren't mentally retarded or brain dead ) can confirm
We are sort of forced to do it.Why ? Because it help raise the grades for some of us and if we don't do it others will and then we have to get higher education and grades matter and you know where this is going
While most might refuse it IF IT WASN'T forced on us from day one,(and this goes on for 12 grades ) they won't if it's already put in our program (lazy-asses ).What can an atheist do ? Well,he can opt out and stay in the class and do nothing for an hour.Greeeeat achievement.Just great.We just sit there while others grades raise.
Romania needs to be sued like shit but sadly it doesn't happen.I am telling you,it's PURE indoctrination.We speak about orthodox saints,Christ and so on.I don't remember to have had a lesson about Islam during that class EVER.I did once in my HISTORY class but not my ''religion'' class. This is just shit,i am telling you guys,it frustrates me to no end

Do you have free speech in Romania? If so start a petition, Protest , OR REVOLUTION!!

[Cameroi]

cultural values, which may owe or partially owe their origin to religious beliefs; good. religious organizations warping and distorting curriculum; not good at all.

religions should be taught about. that they exist. in an impartial and unbiased manor. as part of how human society works and people interact within them.
that is the place of religion in schools. that is the only place of religion in schools.

beliefs are something for each individual, to arrive at by their own growth and understanding.
not something to be arbitrarily shoved down anyone's throat, because it happens to dominate the culture that surrounds them.

[Pag-Aalisa]

I don't think that specific religious extracurricular groups should be held in school either. And, I would say that it doesn't fall into the right to assembly, because the school(state) has to sponsor it using their time and funds violating the establishment clause.

In high school and community college, the Christian groups were antagonists in many cases using their faith to condemn other students. In high school, the Christian group decided that it would be heavily opposed to the school having a "Gay Straight Alliance" and brought the issue up to the school district. They also decided that standing in a circle at the flag pole, where everyone had to walk by from the busses, and praying to America was more important than allowing other students to get to class on time. Maybe I had a weird sense of humor or something back then, but my friends and I would stand in a group near them and read passages out of our Physics book..

Community college, the Christian Student Fellowship was incredibly active in pressing an agenda. Again, they opposed a new group starting.. and this was an interfaith meditation and prayer group that had a large number of Muslims. The group I organized got our member in the school paper to interview the guy in charge of CSF and we got some great quotes. "How do I know they're not hiding a bomb underneath those clothes? We shouldn't have this meditation group because we know there is only one true god and as such we're outright opposed to a prayer area on campus if it's to be used for more than the one true god." We used those quotes to get him impeached out of student senate(I guess I matured a little since HS, eh?)

I know anecdotal evidence doesn't mean that every group will act like this. But, having a specifically Christian group in school just seems to be redundant in general. You probably go to church at least once a week, and you probably go to some other church activity another day of the week, and you probably have Jesus camp during the summer time... how much Jesus do you really need?

[Romania Mare1]

Do you have free speech in Romania? If so start a petition, Protest , OR REVOLUTION!!

Do you have any idea what wealth the church has ?
Do you have any idea how much less the government could care about us ?

[Rumbria]

My girlfriend was told by a teacher at primary school that she wasn't allowed to read from the bible in case she doomed the whole school to hell by being a brown heathen atheist person and all that.

I'm a white heathen atheist person, but apparently that's different.