UK Politics Thread: The Mandelson Effect

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

the test was "is dropping bombs on hospitals and schools justified" and you answered in the fucking affirmative.

I did not say dropping bombs on hospitals and schools ON PURPOSE is justifed.
I said that in some cases it can happen without it being the direct target.
Not every rocket fired or bomb drop will hit its mark, this has always happend in war as weapons are not 100% accurate.

Its a question of purpose and intent when bombs/rockets do hit civilian buildings such as schools or hospitals.
Its also a question of what are the buildings being used for? As terroists sure love to use such buildings knowing western nations are bound by international law not to fire upon them.

you know this is what the russians claimed verbatim after they dropped a stick of 500 kg bombs on Mariupol Theatre... right?

[Velstrania]

While It is horrible when civilians are killed during strikes.
It does not take away nor underplay the reason for the strikes.
In some cases civilian deaths are unavoidable.
You can also be extermly cynical and say the deaths now will save others in the future.

jfc... where do i even fucking begin with this? Should I start with pointing out that under this "logic" russia dropping 1500 kg bombs on Ukrainian hospitals, theatres, apartments and schools is 100% justified?

They're remarkably similar in fact. Neither conflict has a smidge of justification.

[Humanlonia]

the test was "is dropping bombs on hospitals and schools justified" and you answered in the fucking affirmative.

I did not say dropping bombs on hospitals and schools ON PURPOSE is justifed.
I said that in some cases it can happen without it being the direct target.
Not every rocket fired or bomb drop will hit its mark, this has always happend in war as weapons are not 100% accurate.

Its a question of purpose and intent when bombs/rockets do hit civilian buildings such as schools or hospitals.
Its also a question of what are the buildings being used for? As terroists sure love to use such buildings knowing western nations are bound by international law not to fire upon them.
Eitherway questions need to be asked in such cases and investigations must be held to ensure people are accoutable when such buildings are hit and civilains are killed.

This is all somehow too abstract from the conflict under consideration.

[Greater Britannian Realm]

jfc... where do i even fucking begin with this? Should I start with pointing out that under this "logic" russia dropping 1500 kg bombs on Ukrainian hospitals, theatres, apartments and schools is 100% justified?

They're remarkably similar in fact. Neither conflict has a smidge of justification.

Yeah no.
The war in ukraine and the current war with iran are totally different issues.
I can agree the ukraine war has zero backing and russia is 100% without cause.
But with iran the cause does exist, The threat.
Iran is a clear threat to western democracy.
Be it with the fact it constantly chants "death to america" and has been involved with nuclear enrichment.
Also the fact it is the largest funder of terrorism that has killed several people all over the west, brits, french, americans etc.
To say there is somehow zero cause is ignoring such a threat.

Now we can disgaree on how we should be dealing with iran but to say there is no cause for any type of response is missing the point.

[Ifreann]

jfc... where do i even fucking begin with this?

What else do you expect the US to do?
They have tried negotiations.
It has not worked.

Iran is the main funder of islamic terror I would like to ask are you denying this?
Do you also deny that ending the islamic iranian threat is not something we should be doing regardless of methods?

Negotiations did work. The JCPOA was working before Trump tore it up to spite Obama. Iran was in negotiations with the US the day before this attack.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

They're remarkably similar in fact. Neither conflict has a smidge of justification.

Yeah no.
The war in ukraine and the current war with iran are totally different issues.
I can agree the ukraine war has zero backing and russia is 100% without cause.
But with iran the cause does exist, The threat.
Iran is a clear threat to western democracy.
Be it with the fact it constantly chants "death to america" and has been involved with nuclear enrichment.
Also the fact it is the largest funder of terrorism that has killed several people all over the west, brits, french, americans etc.
To say there is somehow zero cause is ignoring such a threat.

Now we can disgaree on how we should be dealing with iran but to say there is no cause for any type of response is missing the point.

we should ask the King to create an Order of Mental Gymnastics and Hypocrisy and award the first Grand Cross to you.

[Greater Britannian Realm]

Yeah no.
The war in ukraine and the current war with iran are totally different issues.
I can agree the ukraine war has zero backing and russia is 100% without cause.
But with iran the cause does exist, The threat.
Iran is a clear threat to western democracy.
Be it with the fact it constantly chants "death to america" and has been involved with nuclear enrichment.
Also the fact it is the largest funder of terrorism that has killed several people all over the west, brits, french, americans etc.
To say there is somehow zero cause is ignoring such a threat.

Now we can disgaree on how we should be dealing with iran but to say there is no cause for any type of response is missing the point.

we should ask the King to create an Order of Mental Gymnastics and Hypocrisy and award the first Grand Cross to you.

???
What are you on about now?

[Velstrania]

They're remarkably similar in fact. Neither conflict has a smidge of justification.

Yeah no.
The war in ukraine and the current war with iran are totally different issues.
I can agree the ukraine war has zero backing and russia is 100% without cause.
But with iran the cause does exist, The threat.
Iran is a clear threat to western democracy.
Be it with the fact it constantly chants "death to america" and has been involved with nuclear enrichment.
Also the fact it is the largest funder of terrorism that has killed several people all over the west, brits, french, americans etc.
To say there is somehow zero cause is ignoring such a threat.

Now we can disgaree on how we should be dealing with iran but to say there is no cause for any type of response is missing the point.

1. Chanting 'death to America' is quite common in parts of the world that have received the gifts of American foreign policy, it's not unique to Iran. Experts are baffled as to why that might be the case.
2. Developing a nuclear weapon, in Iran's situation is I would argue sensible. Iran lives right near a nuclear-armed terror state that acts with utter impunity despite committing war crimes on an apocalyptic scale, which has attacked its infrastructure before. Why would it not want nuclear weapons?
3. Funding terrorism isn't an Iran thing, it's a large country with interests outside of its own borders thing. The largest funder of international terrorism has been, over the past hundred years...America.

[Tyson Fury]

Those who support us getting involved in this useless war for bankers,, I question how committed you are to Britain

I guess you dont give a single damn about the brits who have been murdered by this islamic terrroist regime.

from what I know no Brits were murdered by iran just hostages taken. Brits have been murdered by the saudis and libyan jihadis cameron supported though.
and lets not forget the British children raped by the elite in our countries
I do think the SAS if anything should rescue the British hostages in iran but that should be the maximum extent of our involvment and ONLY if feasible

Mostly via their funding of the major terror groups that have attacked britain and other western nations.

Iranians, while being muslim, are not behind the funding of wahhabi mosques in the uk that call for the death of non muslims, that would be saudis,

So instead of being blinded by the "bankers" or whatever you want to call your thinly vailed anti-semitism.

What made you think i was talking only about Jews. All bankers, non jewish and jewish alike, are involved in instigating wars. If anything you are anti semitic for jumping to that conclusion

I turn that questioning onto you instead, how commited are you to ending one of the main source of terroistic threats against britain and its people?

if we dont bother them they dont bother us. Simple as
We have enough problems at home to focus on

[Herargon]

They're remarkably similar in fact. Neither conflict has a smidge of justification.

Yeah no.
The war in ukraine and the current war with iran are totally different issues.
I can agree the ukraine war has zero backing and russia is 100% without cause.
But with iran the cause does exist, The threat.
Iran is a clear threat to western democracy.
Be it with the fact it constantly chants "death to america" and has been involved with nuclear enrichment.
Also the fact it is the largest funder of terrorism that has killed several people all over the west, brits, french, americans etc.
To say there is somehow zero cause is ignoring such a threat.

Now we can disgaree on how we should be dealing with iran but to say there is no cause for any type of response is missing the point.

I mean, considering that countries that didn't manage to get nuclear weapons got invaded easily by the US, I'd understand why Iran did that. Is it a terrible theocracy? Of course it still is.

But if you are to understand why, then try to think into their mind. If we go by the largest funder of terrorism, the US and the UK also could be counted though, as the former has been responsible for several Red Scares and clandestine CIA experiments, repression of free communists, socialists, and trade unionists, even social democrats, all under the guise of The Dollar. That whereas the latter also has been involved in Operation Cyclone, in which religious mujahedeen were given an abundance of funding and arms -- all solely to kill the left, so that business leaders could enrich themselves.

[Greater Britannian Realm]

Yeah no.
The war in ukraine and the current war with iran are totally different issues.
I can agree the ukraine war has zero backing and russia is 100% without cause.
But with iran the cause does exist, The threat.
Iran is a clear threat to western democracy.
Be it with the fact it constantly chants "death to america" and has been involved with nuclear enrichment.
Also the fact it is the largest funder of terrorism that has killed several people all over the west, brits, french, americans etc.
To say there is somehow zero cause is ignoring such a threat.

Now we can disgaree on how we should be dealing with iran but to say there is no cause for any type of response is missing the point.

1. Chanting 'death to America' is quite common in parts of the world that have received the gifts of American foreign policy, it's not unique to Iran. Experts are baffled as to why that might be the case.
2. Developing a nuclear weapon, in Iran's situation is I would argue sensible. Iran lives right near a nuclear-armed terror state that acts with utter impunity despite committing war crimes on an apocalyptic scale, which has attacked its infrastructure before. Why would it not want nuclear weapons?
3. Funding terrorism isn't an Iran thing, it's a large country with interests outside of its own borders thing. The largest funder of international terrorism has been, over the past hundred years...America.

1. I mean i know the US has had its hand in rather stupid interventions in the middle east as of late but that does not mean the entire US should be destroyed.
2. I dont want another nuclear-armed terror state to counter a nuclear-armed terror state.
3. Iran funds Hamas, Hezbollah among several others. Here is a wikipedia article showing every group iran has funded to say funding terror is not irans thing is just wrong. Though the saudis are also resposible in their own way.

[Velstrania]

1. Chanting 'death to America' is quite common in parts of the world that have received the gifts of American foreign policy, it's not unique to Iran. Experts are baffled as to why that might be the case.
2. Developing a nuclear weapon, in Iran's situation is I would argue sensible. Iran lives right near a nuclear-armed terror state that acts with utter impunity despite committing war crimes on an apocalyptic scale, which has attacked its infrastructure before. Why would it not want nuclear weapons?
3. Funding terrorism isn't an Iran thing, it's a large country with interests outside of its own borders thing. The largest funder of international terrorism has been, over the past hundred years...America.

1. Huh? When did the US invade iran? The last country to do that was actually the UK and the soviet union during ww2.
2. I dont want another nuclear-armed terror state to counter a nuclear-armed terror state.
3. Iran funds Hamas, Hezbollah among several others. Here is a wikipedia article showing every group iran has funded to say funding terror is not irans thing is just wrong. Though the saudis are also resposible in their own way.

1. The crippling trade sanctions are other particular gifts of American foreign policy. American foreign policy doesn't only express itself through bombs and bullets.
2. Whether America (you're not in a position to order airstrikes) would like the world to be a certain way does not give it justification to kill people to make it that way. There are lots of things I would like to happen, however I very much doubt the government will make my dreams of reconquering France a reality.
3. Can you point out where these groups have proven a threat to the West? They're internal groups in certain countries for the most part with clearly defined goals.

[Tyson Fury]

Nick Griffin would not be fighting useless wars if he was PM

[Fartsniffage]

Except we hadn't joined when they targeted it to my understanding?

Per the Beeb "The PM made the announcement [...] just hours before a British RAF base in Cyprus was hit by a drone strike on Sunday night with no casualties reported." And Starmer is really not in any position to claim to be justifiably acting in retaliation against Iran when he made a statement on Saturday condemning Iran's retaliatory strikes.

The Shahed 136 drone has a cruising speed of 115mph. The distance between Iran and Cyprus is over 1,000 miles.

Starmer knew the attack was incoming when he made the announcement but it hadn't arrived yet.

[Jenley]

I guess you dont give a single damn about the brits who have been murdered by this islamic terrroist regime.

from what I know no Brits were murdered by iran just hostages taken. Brits have been murdered by the saudis and libyan jihadis cameron supported though.
and lets not forget the British children raped by the elite in our countries
I do think the SAS if anything should rescue the British hostages in iran but that should be the maximum extent of our involvment and ONLY if feasible

Mostly via their funding of the major terror groups that have attacked britain and other western nations.

Iranians, while being muslim, are not behind the funding of wahhabi mosques in the uk that call for the death of non muslims, that would be saudis,

So instead of being blinded by the "bankers" or whatever you want to call your thinly vailed anti-semitism.

What made you think i was talking only about Jews. All bankers, non jewish and jewish alike, are involved in instigating wars. If anything you are anti semitic for jumping to that conclusion

I turn that questioning onto you instead, how commited are you to ending one of the main source of terroistic threats against britain and its people?

if we dont bother them they dont bother us. Simple as
We have enough problems at home to focus on

Wars are started by politicians, not bankers.

[-Saiwania-]

1. The crippling trade sanctions are other particular gifts of American foreign policy. American foreign policy doesn't only express itself through bombs and bullets.

Why would the US want Iran to succeed or be allowed to trade without barriers after what Iran pulled with the US' embassy in Tehran and elsewhere? Its been nothing but a bad actor since its founding.

[Tyson Fury]

from what I know no Brits were murdered by iran just hostages taken. Brits have been murdered by the saudis and libyan jihadis cameron supported though.
and lets not forget the British children raped by the elite in our countries
I do think the SAS if anything should rescue the British hostages in iran but that should be the maximum extent of our involvment and ONLY if feasible

Iranians, while being muslim, are not behind the funding of wahhabi mosques in the uk that call for the death of non muslims, that would be saudis,

What made you think i was talking only about Jews. All bankers, non jewish and jewish alike, are involved in instigating wars. If anything you are anti semitic for jumping to that conclusion

if we dont bother them they dont bother us. Simple as
We have enough problems at home to focus on

Wars are started by politicians, not bankers.

Most wars we have fought over the past two centuries have only benefitted the banking class

This is known knowledge

[Humanlonia]

Wars are started by politicians, not bankers.

Most wars we have fought over the past two centuries have only benefitted the banking class

This is known knowledge

You're confusing banks with weapons manufacturers.
https://worldbeyondwar.org/beneficial/

[Ifreann]

Per the Beeb "The PM made the announcement [...] just hours before a British RAF base in Cyprus was hit by a drone strike on Sunday night with no casualties reported." And Starmer is really not in any position to claim to be justifiably acting in retaliation against Iran when he made a statement on Saturday condemning Iran's retaliatory strikes.

The Shahed 136 drone has a cruising speed of 115mph. The distance between Iran and Cyprus is over 1,000 miles.

Starmer knew the attack was incoming when he made the announcement but it hadn't arrived yet.

So it was a pre-emptive strike by Iran, as this whole war was a pre-emptive strike by the US.

[Humanlonia]

The Shahed 136 drone has a cruising speed of 115mph. The distance between Iran and Cyprus is over 1,000 miles.

Starmer knew the attack was incoming when he made the announcement but it hadn't arrived yet.

So it was a pre-emptive strike by Iran, as this whole war was a pre-emptive strike by the US.

It is unclear, however, how Cyprus could threaten Iran, but the same can be said about Iran and the United States.

[Saor Alba]

Iranians, while being muslim, are not behind the funding of wahhabi mosques in the uk that call for the death of non muslims, that would be saudis,

I think that you should familiarise yourself with IR activity in the UK

[Ifreann]

So it was a pre-emptive strike by Iran, as this whole war was a pre-emptive strike by the US.

It is unclear, however, how Cyprus could threaten Iran, but the same can be said about Iran and the United States.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akrotiri_and_Dhekelia

[Tyson Fury]

Iranians, while being muslim, are not behind the funding of wahhabi mosques in the uk that call for the death of non muslims, that would be saudis,

I think that you should familiarise yourself with IR activity in the UK

Thank you, yes i see now they are funding mosques in the uk

They are also fighting the BBC paedo protectors too

Definitely a mixed bag

I was wondering if saudis fund wahabbi mosques and iranians fund Shia mosques do the Israelis fund uk synagogues?

i personally believe that there should be no non christian places of worship in the uk, but I can tolerate them if they are not calling for the death of christians or of britain. Do Shia mosques in the uk do that?

[Fartsniffage]

The Shahed 136 drone has a cruising speed of 115mph. The distance between Iran and Cyprus is over 1,000 miles.

Starmer knew the attack was incoming when he made the announcement but it hadn't arrived yet.

So it was a pre-emptive strike by Iran, as this whole war was a pre-emptive strike by the US.

Nah, it was just dumb. We were staying out of the whole thing as far as we could. Now we're a bit more in. If they hit us again then we'll be launching Storm Shadows.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

i personally believe that there should be no non christian places of worship in the uk

please keep your foreign religion out of britain, us druids shouldn't have to see that