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Islamic Discussion Thread ٥: Free Tajweed, Absolutely Halaal

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What denomination of Islam are you part of?

Sunni
146
41%
Salafi
12
3%
Shi'a
35
10%
Qur'ani
6
2%
Ahmadi
5
1%
IbaaDi
6
2%
Sufi (either Sunni or Shi'a)
21
6%
Non-Denominational
62
18%
Other
60
17%
 
Total votes : 353

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Diarcesia
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Founded: Aug 21, 2016
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Postby Diarcesia » Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:44 am

Ansarullah wrote:
One thing to consider is not everyone is tempted by the same things

80% of modern music will encourage you to sin in some way. It's not always sexual. For example, the music I hear on the radio talks about drinking or dancing with half-naked girls, the next station over can talk about how hot someone else's girlfriend is, and so on. It's varied enough that music will tempt ANYONE to sin.

I dunno I'm curious about what the fox says.

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Ansarullah
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Posts: 121
Founded: Sep 04, 2021
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Ansarullah » Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:45 am

I dunno I'm curious about what the fox says.

I think we can all agree that song is too bad to even listen to lmao
The Houthi movement but in NS.
Will probably use for RP at some point.
This is also a shared nation. (between me and a close friend, not some rando)

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Lower Nubia
Minister
 
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Founded: Dec 22, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Lower Nubia » Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:48 am

A m e n r i a wrote:
Kahvran wrote:Yeah. My music teacher, who is also a Muslim, once said that "it is okay to play music and sing a song as passionate as you want, but take a break when it's the time of prayer".


A reasonable stance we can all agree on.

Lower Nubia wrote:
The only person that can own slaves is God, because we’re logically slaves to him anyway. This is why Israel could have them, because the Imago Dei extension through Israel is the concept in my first sentence. Israel was subsumed in Christ so it no longer extended to a nation or people who were the “actors of God’s Will”, now God, through Christ’s death and resurrection, acts directly in the sacraments.


Not according to the big guy eldritch entity Himself, but I get where you're coming from.


Yes, it is important because we cannot emulate moral relativism, which would be the issue for following Muhammad.
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"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
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Diarcesia
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Postby Diarcesia » Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:51 am

Lower Nubia wrote:
A m e n r i a wrote:
A reasonable stance we can all agree on.



Not according to the big guy eldritch entity Himself, but I get where you're coming from.


Yes, it is important because we cannot emulate moral relativism, which would be the issue for following Muhammad.

Tbf for Christians not believing in Jesus is grounds enough for practicing moral relativism.

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Lower Nubia
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Founded: Dec 22, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Lower Nubia » Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:55 am

Diarcesia wrote:
Lower Nubia wrote:
Yes, it is important because we cannot emulate moral relativism, which would be the issue for following Muhammad.

Tbf for Christians not believing in Jesus is grounds enough for practicing moral relativism.


Moral relativism in this case is dependant on the poor state of existence in these centuries. To emulate moral relativism we must emulate that time too. So a) practice without cause. b) recreate today in the pasts struggles.
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"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
Signature Updated: 19th March, 2020

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Chess Reloaded
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Founded: Sep 06, 2021
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Postby Chess Reloaded » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:57 pm

Those who say music isn't haram: the position of all four of the four imams is that musical instruments are prohibited. There are legitimate scholars who differ such as Ibn Hazm however you should look into the matter very carefully before taking a position based on personal desires.

الله اعلم

The Alma Mater wrote:
Ansarullah wrote: It is prohibited because if Muslims listen to music, we are exposing ourselves to degeneracy.


So ? Are muslims so weak that they cannot resist ?


Music is associated with that but not prohibited because of it. Music is just unhelpful for a lot of things, with the amount we pray it's very easy to get a song stuck in your head and zone out while listening to the recitation. Our goal is to get Qur'an stuck in our heads. And the you stop listening to music you will find concentration on Qur'an much easier. And there are probably many other benefits.

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Diarcesia
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Founded: Aug 21, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Diarcesia » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:06 pm

Chess Reloaded wrote:Those who say music isn't haram: the position of all four of the four imams is that musical instruments are prohibited. There are legitimate scholars who differ such as Ibn Hazm however you should look into the matter very carefully before taking a position based on personal desires.

الله اعلم

The Alma Mater wrote:
So ? Are muslims so weak that they cannot resist ?


Music is associated with that but not prohibited because of it. Music is just unhelpful for a lot of things, with the amount we pray it's very easy to get a song stuck in your head and zone out while listening to the recitation. Our goal is to get Qur'an stuck in our heads. And the you stop listening to music you will find concentration on Qur'an much easier. And there are probably many other benefits.

So is the question of whether one "should not" versus "must not" partake in music something that the scholars of fiqh look at? I am assuming there is no definite ruling on the matter in the Qur'an itself.

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Ansarullah
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Founded: Sep 04, 2021
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Ansarullah » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:07 pm

no definite ruling on the matter in the Qur'an itself.

There is not unless you want to stretch and interpret "idle talk" as including music.
The Houthi movement but in NS.
Will probably use for RP at some point.
This is also a shared nation. (between me and a close friend, not some rando)

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Chess Reloaded
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Founded: Sep 06, 2021
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Postby Chess Reloaded » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:22 pm

Diarcesia wrote:
Chess Reloaded wrote:Those who say music isn't haram: the position of all four of the four imams is that musical instruments are prohibited. There are legitimate scholars who differ such as Ibn Hazm however you should look into the matter very carefully before taking a position based on personal desires.

الله اعلم



Music is associated with that but not prohibited because of it. Music is just unhelpful for a lot of things, with the amount we pray it's very easy to get a song stuck in your head and zone out while listening to the recitation. Our goal is to get Qur'an stuck in our heads. And the you stop listening to music you will find concentration on Qur'an much easier. And there are probably many other benefits.

So is the question of whether one "should not" versus "must not" partake in music something that the scholars of fiqh look at? I am assuming there is no definite ruling on the matter in the Qur'an itself.

Saying one should not do but isn't prohibited is called makruh as opposed to haram. I have never seen it applied to music.

The Quran is not the sole source of law in any school. For example in Hanafi school there is Qur'an, Sunnah, taqleed (case law), 'urf (common law), ijma (judicial consensus), qiyas (deduction through analogy), and others depending. Shari'ah is a comprehensive system that covers everything to rubrics for private rituals to fraud and inheritance to tax codes to due process to international law.

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Diarcesia
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Posts: 4195
Founded: Aug 21, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Diarcesia » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:05 pm

Chess Reloaded wrote:
Diarcesia wrote:So is the question of whether one "should not" versus "must not" partake in music something that the scholars of fiqh look at? I am assuming there is no definite ruling on the matter in the Qur'an itself.

Saying one should not do but isn't prohibited is called makruh as opposed to haram. I have never seen it applied to music.

The Quran is not the sole source of law in any school. For example in Hanafi school there is Qur'an, Sunnah, taqleed (case law), 'urf (common law), ijma (judicial consensus), qiyas (deduction through analogy), and others depending. Shari'ah is a comprehensive system that covers everything to rubrics for private rituals to fraud and inheritance to tax codes to due process to international law.

How does immutability in Shariah rulings work? Definitely, there are some that are truly set in stone that can't be changed? But what are some that are more limited in scope or depends in the context of a particular era?

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Chess Reloaded
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Founded: Sep 06, 2021
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Postby Chess Reloaded » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:46 pm

Diarcesia wrote:
Chess Reloaded wrote:Saying one should not do but isn't prohibited is called makruh as opposed to haram. I have never seen it applied to music.

The Quran is not the sole source of law in any school. For example in Hanafi school there is Qur'an, Sunnah, taqleed (case law), 'urf (common law), ijma (judicial consensus), qiyas (deduction through analogy), and others depending. Shari'ah is a comprehensive system that covers everything to rubrics for private rituals to fraud and inheritance to tax codes to due process to international law.

How does immutability in Shariah rulings work? Definitely, there are some that are truly set in stone that can't be changed? But what are some that are more limited in scope or depends in the context of a particular era?

You mean like paying for manslaughter in camels? Things like that are typically handled through qiyas, but that has to be done very carefully because most faulty rulings not derived from faulty hadiths are due to faulty qiyas

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Lower Nubia
Minister
 
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Founded: Dec 22, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Lower Nubia » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:31 pm

Chess Reloaded wrote:Those who say music isn't haram: the position of all four of the four imams is that musical instruments are prohibited. There are legitimate scholars who differ such as Ibn Hazm however you should look into the matter very carefully before taking a position based on personal desires.

الله اعلم

The Alma Mater wrote:
So ? Are muslims so weak that they cannot resist ?


Music is associated with that but not prohibited because of it. Music is just unhelpful for a lot of things, with the amount we pray it's very easy to get a song stuck in your head and zone out while listening to the recitation. Our goal is to get Qur'an stuck in our heads. And the you stop listening to music you will find concentration on Qur'an much easier. And there are probably many other benefits.


Slaves and no pianos. Lmao this is wild.
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"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
Signature Updated: 19th March, 2020

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Chess Reloaded
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Founded: Sep 06, 2021
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Postby Chess Reloaded » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:24 pm

Lower Nubia wrote:
Chess Reloaded wrote:Those who say music isn't haram: the position of all four of the four imams is that musical instruments are prohibited. There are legitimate scholars who differ such as Ibn Hazm however you should look into the matter very carefully before taking a position based on personal desires.

الله اعلم



Music is associated with that but not prohibited because of it. Music is just unhelpful for a lot of things, with the amount we pray it's very easy to get a song stuck in your head and zone out while listening to the recitation. Our goal is to get Qur'an stuck in our heads. And the you stop listening to music you will find concentration on Qur'an much easier. And there are probably many other benefits.


Slaves and no pianos. Lmao this is wild.

Many prophets kept slaves but no prophet would play the piano.

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Diarcesia
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Founded: Aug 21, 2016
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Postby Diarcesia » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:50 pm

Chess Reloaded wrote:
Lower Nubia wrote:
Slaves and no pianos. Lmao this is wild.

Many prophets kept slaves but no prophet would play the piano.

Muhammad's death year? 632
Piano's invention year? 1700

Of course no prophet would play the piano. Speaking of which, I've heard of some teachers saying technology after Muhammad's time is haram.
Last edited by Diarcesia on Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Insaanistan
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Founded: Nov 18, 2019
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Postby Insaanistan » Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:02 pm

Here’s the title I’m thinking of for my post:
“How a Haram System Endured in the Islamic World”
What do you guys think?
السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركته-Peace be with you!
BLM - Free Palestine - Abolish Kafala - Boycott Israel - Trump lost
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Hello brother (or sister),
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The Jamesian Republic
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Founded: Apr 28, 2020
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Postby The Jamesian Republic » Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:04 pm

Insaanistan wrote:Here’s the title I’m thinking of for my post:
“How a Haram System Endured in the Islamic World”
What do you guys think?


Sure.
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Ansarullah
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Founded: Sep 04, 2021
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Postby Ansarullah » Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:09 pm

Insaanistan wrote:Here’s the title I’m thinking of for my post:
“How a Haram System Endured in the Islamic World”
What do you guys think?

What system?
The Houthi movement but in NS.
Will probably use for RP at some point.
This is also a shared nation. (between me and a close friend, not some rando)

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Diarcesia
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Founded: Aug 21, 2016
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Postby Diarcesia » Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:13 pm

Insaanistan wrote:Here’s the title I’m thinking of for my post:
“How a Haram System Endured in the Islamic World”
What do you guys think?

No animals are haram in the making of this post.

Ansarullah wrote:
Insaanistan wrote:Here’s the title I’m thinking of for my post:
“How a Haram System Endured in the Islamic World”
What do you guys think?

What system?

Slavery

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Ansarullah
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Founded: Sep 04, 2021
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Ansarullah » Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:14 pm

Slavery

Slavery isn't haram though. Unless he means that literally like the conditions of workers in Qatar in which case yes, that's VERY sinful
The Houthi movement but in NS.
Will probably use for RP at some point.
This is also a shared nation. (between me and a close friend, not some rando)

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Chess Reloaded
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Founded: Sep 06, 2021
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Postby Chess Reloaded » Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:26 pm

Diarcesia wrote:
Chess Reloaded wrote:Many prophets kept slaves but no prophet would play the piano.

Muhammad's death year? 632
Piano's invention year? 1700

Of course no prophet would play the piano. Speaking of which, I've heard of some teachers saying technology after Muhammad's time is haram.

‘Isa bin Maryam عليه السلام is returning.

I don't know which ‘alim says that any invention after Muhammad's ﷺ death is haram, and I'm dubious any scholar does say that as there is no proof for it whatsoever and Shari'ah, like western law, follows the principle, “Everything which is not forbidden is allowed.” The practical fruit being something is presumed halal until proven haram

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Insaanistan
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Postby Insaanistan » Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:29 pm

Diarcesia wrote:
Insaanistan wrote:Here’s the title I’m thinking of for my post:
“How a Haram System Endured in the Islamic World”
What do you guys think?

No animals are haram in the making of this post.

Ansarullah wrote:What system?

Slavery

:lol2:
السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركته-Peace be with you!
BLM - Free Palestine - Abolish Kafala - Boycott Israel - Trump lost
Anti: DAESH & friends, IR Govt, Saudi Govt, Israeli Govt, China, anti-semitism, homophobia, racism, sexism, Fascism, Communism, Islamophobia.

Hello brother (or sister),
Unapologetic Muslim American
I’m neither a terrorist nor Iranian.
Ace-ish (Hate it when my friends are right!)
TG for questions on Islam!

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Chess Reloaded
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Founded: Sep 06, 2021
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Postby Chess Reloaded » Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:48 pm

Diarcesia wrote:
Insaanistan wrote:Here’s the title I’m thinking of for my post:
“How a Haram System Endured in the Islamic World”
What do you guys think?

No animals are haram in the making of this post.

Ansarullah wrote:What system?

Slavery

Saying slavery is unconditionally haram is shirk because when you say what is clearly halal is haram you are setting yourself up as a Lord beside Allah عز و جل according to the Quran.
Last edited by Chess Reloaded on Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lower Nubia
Minister
 
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Founded: Dec 22, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Lower Nubia » Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:42 pm

Insaanistan wrote:Here’s the title I’m thinking of for my post:
“How a Haram System Endured in the Islamic World”
What do you guys think?


“How a Halal System Endures in the Modern World”
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"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
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Insaanistan
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Founded: Nov 18, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Insaanistan » Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:01 pm

Lower Nubia wrote:
Insaanistan wrote:Here’s the title I’m thinking of for my post:
“How a Haram System Endured in the Islamic World”
What do you guys think?


“How a Halal System Endures in the Modern World”

“There are three categories of people against whom I shall myself be a plaintiff on the Day of Judgment: The one is he who enslaves a free man, the one who sells him and the one who profits from it.”
-Muhammad (S), according to al-Bukhari and ibn Majah
السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركته-Peace be with you!
BLM - Free Palestine - Abolish Kafala - Boycott Israel - Trump lost
Anti: DAESH & friends, IR Govt, Saudi Govt, Israeli Govt, China, anti-semitism, homophobia, racism, sexism, Fascism, Communism, Islamophobia.

Hello brother (or sister),
Unapologetic Muslim American
I’m neither a terrorist nor Iranian.
Ace-ish (Hate it when my friends are right!)
TG for questions on Islam!

User avatar
Ansarullah
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 121
Founded: Sep 04, 2021
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Ansarullah » Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:02 pm

Insaanistan wrote:
Lower Nubia wrote:
“How a Halal System Endures in the Modern World”

“There are three categories of people against whom I shall myself be a plaintiff on the Day of Judgment: The one is he who enslaves a free man, the one who sells him and the one who profits from it.”
-Muhammad (S), according to al-Bukhari and ibn Majah

1: Type out the full Salawat "sallahu alaihi wasallam", abbreviating it both removes the meaning and is lazy. It takes 5 seconds.
2: Hadith reference?
Last edited by Ansarullah on Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Houthi movement but in NS.
Will probably use for RP at some point.
This is also a shared nation. (between me and a close friend, not some rando)

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