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Goddess vs Mortal Hypothetical

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What should be done? (Please also state what your PR approach would be)

Help Artemis (with or without conditions), Reward Ostro
9
33%
Help Artemis (with or without conditions), Sanction Ostro
3
11%
Non-Intervention
7
26%
Leave Artemis, Reward Ostro
6
22%
Regulate Artemis, Sanction Ostro
2
7%
Other
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 27

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Auzkhia
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Postby Auzkhia » Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:50 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Auzkhia wrote:Athena may work, but I don't wanna roast her too much, it's not wise.

Though, take it from me, a Hellenist.


I see…

I think you may have a point. But it’s too late to change it now :(

Athena fights with a magical spear right? And she has a shield that can turn people into stone?

Yes, she made Medusa a gorgon and then tasked Heracles to kill her and give the head to her.

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Kannap
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Postby Kannap » Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:13 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:I'd say the OP mostly runs with the premise that the transformation abilities aren't actually on the table (though Olympus would ENCOURAGE stories promoting that such powers existed).


Ancient Greek mythology makes clear these abilities exist and are the quickest and most peaceful option.

Infected Mushroom wrote:But even if you assumed it was on the table, it would go against Artemis' personality in this setup to use it


Not sure you can call it Artermis' personality when you've deliberately written a personality that is nothing like hers. This is IM Universal Diety File Number 76195's personality, sure.

Infected Mushroom wrote:because she wants to defeat Ostro the Hunter, not Ostro the Animal.


Are you implying that turning a human being into a wild animal isn't defeating the human being? Because I would classify that as a humiliating defeat.

Infected Mushroom wrote:She needs to defeat him as a mortal human in order to validate her supremacy.


Are you implying that turning a human being into a wild animal isn't a display of supremacy? Because I would classify that as a display of supremacy.
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:15 am

Auzkhia wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
I see…

I think you may have a point. But it’s too late to change it now :(

Athena fights with a magical spear right? And she has a shield that can turn people into stone?

Yes, she made Medusa a gorgon and then tasked Heracles to kill her and give the head to her.


Wasn't it Perseus? Or am I wrong?
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kannap
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Postby Kannap » Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:04 am

Auzkhia wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
I see…

I think you may have a point. But it’s too late to change it now :(

Athena fights with a magical spear right? And she has a shield that can turn people into stone?

Yes, she made Medusa a gorgon and then tasked Heracles to kill her and give the head to her.


Perseus, not Herakles
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:48 pm

Kannap wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:I'd say the OP mostly runs with the premise that the transformation abilities aren't actually on the table (though Olympus would ENCOURAGE stories promoting that such powers existed).


Ancient Greek mythology makes clear these abilities exist and are the quickest and most peaceful option.

Infected Mushroom wrote:But even if you assumed it was on the table, it would go against Artemis' personality in this setup to use it


Not sure you can call it Artermis' personality when you've deliberately written a personality that is nothing like hers. This is IM Universal Diety File Number 76195's personality, sure.

Infected Mushroom wrote:because she wants to defeat Ostro the Hunter, not Ostro the Animal.


Are you implying that turning a human being into a wild animal isn't defeating the human being? Because I would classify that as a humiliating defeat.

Infected Mushroom wrote:She needs to defeat him as a mortal human in order to validate her supremacy.


Are you implying that turning a human being into a wild animal isn't a display of supremacy? Because I would classify that as a display of supremacy.


In her mind it’s not a display of hunting supremacy because at the moment of his death, he wasn’t human anymore.

It’s the same reason she didn’t just kill him at home. She brought him here for a real hunt.

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Postby Dakini » Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:17 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Kannap wrote:
Ancient Greek mythology makes clear these abilities exist and are the quickest and most peaceful option.



Not sure you can call it Artermis' personality when you've deliberately written a personality that is nothing like hers. This is IM Universal Diety File Number 76195's personality, sure.



Are you implying that turning a human being into a wild animal isn't defeating the human being? Because I would classify that as a humiliating defeat.



Are you implying that turning a human being into a wild animal isn't a display of supremacy? Because I would classify that as a display of supremacy.


In her mind it’s not a display of hunting supremacy because at the moment of his death, he wasn’t human anymore.

It’s the same reason she didn’t just kill him at home. She brought him here for a real hunt.

Which, again, is not how the Greek gods operate.

I think that you've received a lot of criticism of your interpretation of Artemis, but one thing that we've neglected is how your Ostro character is a total Gary Stu. You have him as a devoted follower of Artemis who is totally into her code of ethics and the best hunter (as proclaimed by others while he remains humble) and can win over her hunting companions and get locals to tell him everything he needs to know and so on. You haven't even made him clumsy or arrogant or something, he's just flawless as a character and everything he tries works perfectly which is unrealistic bullshit.

The other thing is, the Greek gods love mortals who follow them. If they didn't, then why would anyone want to pray at their temples and all that? A mortal might be a devoted follower of one god and piss off another god and then the gods duke it out over this person's fate, but unless a follower transgresses against their god (which being an excellent, but humble hunter doesn't), then that god will be nice to them and help them out when they can.
Last edited by Dakini on Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Algebra and Geometry
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Postby Algebra and Geometry » Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:23 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:Please consider the following hypothetical:

You are an immortal on the council of Zeus, King of the Gods.

The following series of events comes to your attention (please consider the scenario in its entirety so that you may reach a reasonable conclusion):

Ostro is a skilled hunter from a village. The word spreads throughout the city-states that he is “the greatest hunter to ever live.”

Artemis, Goddess of the Hunt, is slighted by this.

She arranges for Ostro to be abducted to a magical island where he is unfairly sentenced to death (Ostro is horrified because he has worshipped Artemis all his life and followed her code of honor, which apparently she herself doesn’t follow). To turn his execution into a sport, Artemis allows Ostro a 10 minute head start… after which she and her three huntresses will hunt him down and kill him.

Artemis unleashes the three huntresses first while she hangs back.

However, despite being a “mere mortal,”Ostro turns out extremely skilled, resourceful, crafty, and determined to survive and prevail at all cost. After a three-four hour long back and forth of battles and mind games between Ostro and the three huntresses, Ostro defeats all three of them. Not only this but he persuades them to switch over to his team.

While he’s hiding, Artemis shows up in the vicinity and starts to threaten him with death using her magically magnified voice. She then starts spamming magical arrows (she has unlimited ammo) all over the forest, casually obliterating entire forests and mountains to smoke him out of hiding.

As she advances, a few of Ostro’s death traps go off against her but they are all cancelled by some kind of super shield power. Ostro steps out and shoots an arrow at her but it is also blocked by magic.

He then sprints across the forest as Artemis turns around and devastates the landscape with more OP arrows. He keeps crawling until he reaches a field of flowers.

Instead of killing him from range, Artemis decides to add “a personal touch.” She shows up and starts beating him around with her super strength. This proves to be a tactical mistake because Ostro has enchanted said flower field with a Suggestion Spell he learned from the island’s oppressed natives. He rolls out of the field and says the activate command. After Artemis gets sprayed with a whole field’s worth of the magical powder (which her shield doesn’t protect her from), Ostro forces her to destroy her own OP magical bow and to dance around continuously like an idiot while he runs off gleefully.

The spell wears off and furious Artemis catches up to him, knife in hand. However, before she can close the gap Mother Nature senses a lapse in her power and takes opportunity to move in to collect a “magical debt” for centuries of wanton destruction of the environment and the animals… a vine grabs Artemis and drags her away from Ostro and throughout the forest for a painful ride across the earth. Along the way she takes tons and tons of damage from piles of sharp plants and mobs of vengeful animals. She heals from all damage but her powers are very over-taxed. It takes her a long time to get away.

She then shows up, knife in hand to try to kill Ostro AGAIN. There is a chance for her to stab him but he manages to avoid her and trip her. Then he turns and runs into a cave.

She follows him inside, only for the trap door to seal and cut her off from the moonlight (which gives her strength) near total darkness. Since Artemis’ body glows with a feeble light, the mortal is able to see her and not the other way around. A final battle takes place where Ostro continually attacks her with a long stick and several crafted weapons, moving back and forth like Batman and fully utilizing the darkness. Artemis runs around in total darkness and keeps trying to stab him but is unable to keep up or accurately judge where he is. She takes more and more and more hits and is eventually disarmed.

Finally, after all these screw ups and with some magical help from the disloyal huntresses, Artemis’ divine powers reject her… finding her “unworthy,” they reconstitute themselves unto Ostro, making him the new God of the Hunt while Artemis becomes a simple, de-powered immortal. Artemis is then made to apologize for trying to hunt and kill him and to recognize him as the greatest hunter.

It only gets worse:

Ostro: What should we do with her now?
Huntress 1: You should remove her low tier immortality. Cast and exile her into the mortal realm.
Huntress 2: She can dance for a living. Then we could come and watch.
Ostro: I can remove her immortality?! I can do that?! (Whistles*)

Artemis: Please don’t do that. Not the mortal realm PLEASE! I’ll do anything! Just not that! I can’t be a mortal, I can’t. I’ll be RUINED.

Ostro: Well. There was this other option I had in mind but it’s a bit extreme. You’ll have to… hmm well-

Artemis: What? TELL ME.

Ostro: You’ll have to become my servant.

Artemis: YOUR WHAT?!

Ostro: Yup. There’s a long list of mortals and immortals you’ve ruined and harmed over the centuries. You have to atone for that too. This is what I came up with.

Artemis: I‘ll never degrade myself to such a fate. Pick something else.

Ostro: This is your only choice. Become my servant and keep your immortality, or live out your life as a mortal woman. Either way, you’ll learn some humility and get some real character building.

Artemis: Oh please be more generous! I’m already disgraced enough!

Ostro: Sure I’ll throw you a bone. If you prove yourself reformed, say maybe in a few hundred years, and pass a few tests, then I’ll consider promoting you to the status of… huntress.

Artemis: H-HUNTRESS?!

Ostro: Best I can do I’m afraid. Yeah I didn’t think you’d go for it. It looks like your mind is all set. Nothing wrong with your choice. Here, let me just take away your immort-

Artemis: ALRIGHT! I’ll do it! I’ll be your servant!


Upon their relocation to a mansion, Artemis is thrust into a nightmare world that stands in sharp contrast to the idyllic, colorful, heavenly beauty of the surroundings. The three gleeful huntresses are put in charge and they dress her up “like a little doll” and affix her with a slave collar. Then she is worked endlessly from dawn to dusk like a common servant while watched by the happy huntresses. The former Goddess of the Hunt is made to clean, cook, sweep, build new structures, work the crops in the field, move stacks of hay from barn to barn, do all the gardening, and care for the filthy livestock all using her hands and only with the tools of mortals.

From time to time other immortals (and even a few Olympians) come by the mansion to fraternize with the new God of the Hunt. At such times Artemis is made to serve the food and drinks to the guests while trying not to die from the burn because everyone knew her from her better days. The tales of her incredulous fall from the status of goddess spread far and wide, and since she had previously slighted so many people, lots of immortals would find excuses to travel by the mansion just to try and get a glimpse of the once-great, unbearably haughty Artemis in her new role.


While all of this was happening, Zeus and the other main Olympians were away on a celestial conference. Now that they’ve returned, there’s a bit of a PR disaster.

Not because of the slavery/servant thing (many Olympians have slaves) but because this sort of thing… may upset the status quo between gods and mortals.

The poets have begun to spread this tale and it’s already become a big deal in the mortal realm. Some say it’s too late to control the story now.

Upon hearing the tale, some gods are annoyed and say we need to rectify the situation and restore Artemis’ status because as unlikable as she is, we can’t have a story of a mortal stealing divine powers and having a happy ending. Ostro can be rewarded or punished, just incentivize him not to spread this madness and put a cap on the poets spreading this tale (censor it).

Zeus, however, just cheerfully laughs about it in a booming voice and seems generally okay with Ostro becoming the new god, even thinking it’s kind of cool and well-earned. He even met up with Ostro a few times and seems chill about it.

A meeting is held with all the main Olympians and you, as an immortal council member get to participate. Everyone must contribute their opinion on what to do (though Zeus has the ultimate say, he’s good-natured enough to hear what everyone has to say).

The related discussion questions are:

1. Should the gods intervene to help Artemis? Her powers could theoretically be restored. What should be done about her generally?Or do we leave her in this situation because it’s what is deserved?

2. Should Ostro be allowed to keep his God of the Hunt status? Was it stolen or earned? What should be done about him generally? Is he a hero or a villain here?

3. In light of what you recommend for the above, and assuming the story has now spread far and wide, how do we handle the PR? Do we confirm the story, say nothing about the story, try to emphasize “correct morals” in the story through selective emphasis, or do we write and push a new story? What’s best for the mortals? What’s best for Olympus?


Remember, right now, Ostro is very popular, not just with mortals but with the low tier immortals too. He gets along with the other deities. And he’s already using his new powers to benevolently help the people. At the same time, Olympus has to manage the fallout.

Here’s what I think. I may change my mind, especially about 3.

1. The gods should restore Artemis’ goddess status but on conditions of good behavior and responsible use (so no more murdering of mortals). Her image has taken a hit that will take centuries to repair but we’ve still got something to work with. Since a few months have elapsed and she now understands what some mortals go through as a slave, hopefully she will have learned a few lessons.

2. Ostro doesn’t get to keep the God of the Hunt status because it would invite/encourage mortals to change the status quo. However, he has displayed extraordinary courage, resourcefulness, and ability so should be massively rewarded (and I mean massively rewarded) in some other suitable way; so long as he keeps his mouth shut and doesn’t stir up trouble between Olympus-mortal-realm relations.

3. It’s too late to completely contain and roll back the story in its entirety but instead of Artemis losing disgracefully the ending could be re-emphasized and rewritten so that she’s “impressed” with his resourcefulness and rewards him instead. The huntresses can maybe take the fall for the story and become the villainesses instead who try to ruin Ostro and create the conflict to their own political gain. That’s one idea, I don’t know if it would work.

2. Should Ostro be allowed to keep his God of the Hunt status? Was it stolen or earned? What should be done about him generally? Is he a hero or a villain here? . For this hypothetical story , I think Ostro was unrightfully condemned to a painful existence by Artemis. They must spare him a once , when protectors become enemies it is of no use.
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:42 am

Algebra and Geometry wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:Please consider the following hypothetical:

You are an immortal on the council of Zeus, King of the Gods.

The following series of events comes to your attention (please consider the scenario in its entirety so that you may reach a reasonable conclusion):



While all of this was happening, Zeus and the other main Olympians were away on a celestial conference. Now that they’ve returned, there’s a bit of a PR disaster.

Not because of the slavery/servant thing (many Olympians have slaves) but because this sort of thing… may upset the status quo between gods and mortals.

The poets have begun to spread this tale and it’s already become a big deal in the mortal realm. Some say it’s too late to control the story now.

Upon hearing the tale, some gods are annoyed and say we need to rectify the situation and restore Artemis’ status because as unlikable as she is, we can’t have a story of a mortal stealing divine powers and having a happy ending. Ostro can be rewarded or punished, just incentivize him not to spread this madness and put a cap on the poets spreading this tale (censor it).

Zeus, however, just cheerfully laughs about it in a booming voice and seems generally okay with Ostro becoming the new god, even thinking it’s kind of cool and well-earned. He even met up with Ostro a few times and seems chill about it.

A meeting is held with all the main Olympians and you, as an immortal council member get to participate. Everyone must contribute their opinion on what to do (though Zeus has the ultimate say, he’s good-natured enough to hear what everyone has to say).

The related discussion questions are:



Remember, right now, Ostro is very popular, not just with mortals but with the low tier immortals too. He gets along with the other deities. And he’s already using his new powers to benevolently help the people. At the same time, Olympus has to manage the fallout.

Here’s what I think. I may change my mind, especially about 3.

1. The gods should restore Artemis’ goddess status but on conditions of good behavior and responsible use (so no more murdering of mortals). Her image has taken a hit that will take centuries to repair but we’ve still got something to work with. Since a few months have elapsed and she now understands what some mortals go through as a slave, hopefully she will have learned a few lessons.

2. Ostro doesn’t get to keep the God of the Hunt status because it would invite/encourage mortals to change the status quo. However, he has displayed extraordinary courage, resourcefulness, and ability so should be massively rewarded (and I mean massively rewarded) in some other suitable way; so long as he keeps his mouth shut and doesn’t stir up trouble between Olympus-mortal-realm relations.

3. It’s too late to completely contain and roll back the story in its entirety but instead of Artemis losing disgracefully the ending could be re-emphasized and rewritten so that she’s “impressed” with his resourcefulness and rewards him instead. The huntresses can maybe take the fall for the story and become the villainesses instead who try to ruin Ostro and create the conflict to their own political gain. That’s one idea, I don’t know if it would work.

2. Should Ostro be allowed to keep his God of the Hunt status? Was it stolen or earned? What should be done about him generally? Is he a hero or a villain here? . For this hypothetical story , I think Ostro was unrightfully condemned to a painful existence by Artemis. They must spare him a once , when protectors become enemies it is of no use.


I see... so are you supporting Option 3?

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Mostrov
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Postby Mostrov » Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:48 am

Artemis had the capacity for violence e.g. Niobe's children, Chione, Orion &c. Outside of myth, Artemis' arrows were feared by women as causing sudden death, rather sanguinary for a goddess. It should be stressed that life in the classical era was dark and bloody, unlike the enlightenment's imagination of it.

There are parallels with Orion: a proto-Hero, so to say. Much has been said of what is or isn't in character I don't find particularly accurate.
Last edited by Mostrov on Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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JAPANBLOX
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Postby JAPANBLOX » Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:52 am

hmmm.

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Postby Wormfodder Delivery » Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:56 am

Auzkhia wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
I see…

I think you may have a point. But it’s too late to change it now :(

Athena fights with a magical spear right? And she has a shield that can turn people into stone?

Yes, she made Medusa a gorgon and then tasked Heracles to kill her and give the head to her.

Perseus, and the Version where she was made a gorgon is Ovids fanfiction which is not even written by a greek.
She was just a monster in the original.
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:59 am

Mostrov wrote:Artemis had the capacity for violence e.g. Niobe's children, Chione, Orion &c. Outside of myth, Artemis' arrows were feared by women as causing sudden death, rather sanguinary for a goddess. It should be stressed that life in the classical era was dark and bloody, unlike the enlightenment's imagination of it.

There are parallels with Orion: a proto-Hero, so to say. Much has been said of what is or isn't in character I don't find particularly accurate.


Fair points

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Postby Sungoldy-China » Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:44 pm

As long as the new god keeps the costume of a woman and declares that he is still a virgin god,

Just be able to make us pretend that nothing happened.

Or, use divine power to help him achieve this?
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Mostrov
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Postby Mostrov » Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:39 pm

One final thought: I wondered about scenes in classical literature with battle narrative involving a god so that we could know how they fought, as usually it is rather invocatory. The second book of the Dionysiaca is reminiscent, though it is a late work (4th century AD), with a rather cinematic style much in contrast to the archaic epics. As a side note, even in the short scenes of the Iliad (21.478ff.), Artemis has a rather comical episode, being boxed around the ears by Hera, which says much.

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Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:52 am

Sungoldy-China wrote:As long as the new god keeps the costume of a woman and declares that he is still a virgin god,

Just be able to make us pretend that nothing happened.

Or, use divine power to help him achieve this?


Of course nothing happened. I mean sure, Ostro and the huntresses may have had to punish Artemis a few times (if she didn’t obey) but of course, this scenario is PG 13

It would be entirely unethical and all too inappropriate for Ostro to overly impose himself. I assure you it’s not part of the premise.

What’s your opinion as to the options in the OP’s poll?
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:56 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:57 am

JAPANBLOX wrote:
hmmm.


Come again?

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Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:56 pm

Mostrov wrote:One final thought: I wondered about scenes in classical literature with battle narrative involving a god so that we could know how they fought, as usually it is rather invocatory. The second book of the Dionysiaca is reminiscent, though it is a late work (4th century AD), with a rather cinematic style much in contrast to the archaic epics. As a side note, even in the short scenes of the Iliad (21.478ff.), Artemis has a rather comical episode, being boxed around the ears by Hera, which says much.


Are you a scholar of the Greek myths? How do you know so much? I am very very impressed.

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Mostrov
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Postby Mostrov » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:47 am

I studied Classics and read a great deal. Esp. authors such as Nilsson, Burket, Dumézil (for Rome) & M.L. West. It comes from an interest in the history of the Greek religion and how it relates to epic and drama—most so-called retellings (and esp. reinterpretations) miss the mark. Beware of those who speak of a canon.

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Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:25 am

Mostrov wrote:I studied Classics and read a great deal. Esp. authors such as Nilsson, Burket, Dumézil (for Rome) & M.L. West. It comes from an interest in the history of the Greek religion and how it relates to epic and drama—most so-called retellings (and esp. reinterpretations) miss the mark. Beware of those who speak of a canon.


I see. That’s wonderful.

I like how the Greek stories have a timelessness to them and can be retold and re-interpreted in so many ways. They really are a literary treasure of western civilization.

What would you do in the hypothetical? Would you help the goddess?
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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