Coronavirus Thread VI: Are We Nearly There Yet? (READ OP)

[San Lumen]

So you’d end the music, theatre, restaurant, events, bar and other industries? What a boring world.

Is that really a world you want to live in?

No. Not “end”. Things would just be operated differently; less crowded and such. Social distancing, not lock down.

And yes, I would like to live in that world.

A restaurant or theatre production would never make a profit. Plus placing a permanent limit on gatherings would violate the first amendment of the us constitution and never hold up in court.

You'll find many don't share that sentiment.

[Kerwa]

A restaurant or theatre production would never make a profit. Plus placing a permanent limit on gatherings would violate the first amendment of the us constitution and never hold up in court.

Rubbish. Plenty of restaurants (good ones) have extremely low volume. They’re just expensive. And theater can charge more for tickets and cut production costs to deal with social distancing - like an all box format or something.

The first amendment does allow for occupancy limits. That’s already a thing.

[CoraSpia]

The over the top security theatre at airports is 'reasonable' now?

Did anybody else know that those imaging machines can see your bits and bobs clear as day? Funny how the TSA touts “security,” when the very thing we should be worried most about is the government itself.

We live in a world in which the group most likely to do you harm is the government of your own country.

[CoraSpia]

iirc, the idea with forcing pubs to close early was that people wouldn't be able to get as drunk and if people didn't get as drunk, they would be less likely to break the rules and start hugging all their friends.

Except, in cities that rely heavily on Service Industry, you saw their economy tank harder than other cities.

The house parties admittedly were wild.

[Ghost Land]

A restaurant or theatre production would never make a profit. Plus placing a permanent limit on gatherings would violate the first amendment of the us constitution and never hold up in court.

Rubbish. Plenty of restaurants (good ones) have extremely low volume. They’re just expensive. And theater can charge more for tickets and cut production costs to deal with social distancing - like an all box format or something.

The first amendment does allow for occupancy limits. That’s already a thing.

Jacking up the price is going to make less people want to go to restaurants, theatres, etc., as they can no longer afford it or otherwise figure it isn't worth it anymore.

Or we'd just see inflation get jacked up even further, but either way, nobody's better off than where they started.

[Kerwa]

Jacking up the price is going to make less people want to go to restaurants, theatres, etc., as they can no longer afford it or otherwise figure it isn't worth it anymore.

Yes. That sector of the economy would contract. So what? Other things will replace it. It’s just the way of things.

[San Lumen]

A restaurant or theatre production would never make a profit. Plus placing a permanent limit on gatherings would violate the first amendment of the us constitution and never hold up in court.

Rubbish. Plenty of restaurants (good ones) have extremely low volume. They’re just expensive. And theater can charge more for tickets and cut production costs to deal with social distancing - like an all box format or something.

The first amendment does allow for occupancy limits. That’s already a thing.

Every establishment must have an occupancy limit set for fire code. Any rooms where people gather must have it too. Its set before it opens That's not a violation of freedom of assembly. The government setting limits below that or banning certain types of gatherings would violate the first amendment.

Jacking up the price is going to make less people want to go to restaurants, theatres, etc., as they can no longer afford it or otherwise figure it isn't worth it anymore.

Yes. That sector of the economy would contract. So what? Other things will replace it. It’s just the way of things.

And many people would lose their jobs and entire economies would collapse. what's going to replace the centuries old industries of restaurants and theatre?

[American Pere Housh]

Just remember that just because the CDC issues guidelines doesn't mean the state has to follow them. There are going to be alot of people who are vaccinated who will refuse to wear a mask again as a form of civil disobedience.

[Kerwa]

And many people would lose their jobs and entire economies would collapse. what's going to replace the centuries old industries of restaurants and theatre?

Entire economies would not collapse because there are fewer dine in restaurants. And I think you vastly overstate the importance of live theater to the US (which is practically zero).

If the US can survive the loss of steel, shipbuilding, much of the manufacturing base I am certain that it can weather a shift to more takeaway food and video on demand.

Fire codes can be adjusted, or new occupancy limits set for health and safety reasons. It would make things safer, that’s an absolute win in my book.

[San Lumen]

And many people would lose their jobs and entire economies would collapse. what's going to replace the centuries old industries of restaurants and theatre?

Entire economies would not collapse because there are fewer dine in restaurants. And I think you vastly overstate the importance of live theater to the US (which is practically zero).

If the US can survive the loss of steel, shipbuilding, much of the manufacturing base I am certain that it can weather a shift to more takeaway food and video on demand.

Fire codes can be adjusted, or new occupancy limits set for health and safety reasons. It would make things safer, that’s an absolute win in my book.

Broadway is a multi millon dollar industry. It going away would devastate the cities economy and that's just one example.

There is risk in every day life. Setting limits on the chance someone gets sick is ridiculous. Pathogens have been around since the dawn of humanity and making capacity limits or masks permanent will not change that.

Setting occupancy limits for health on a permanent basis is not feasible. The events and live entertainment would never be able to make a profit. This is simple economics. Just raising prices is not an answer.

Its not a win when you'd devastate entire economies. The government cannot ban parades or concerts either. That would be a total violation of freedom of assembly.

[American Pere Housh]

And many people would lose their jobs and entire economies would collapse. what's going to replace the centuries old industries of restaurants and theatre?

Entire economies would not collapse because there are fewer dine in restaurants. And I think you vastly overstate the importance of live theater to the US (which is practically zero).

If the US can survive the loss of steel, shipbuilding, much of the manufacturing base I am certain that it can weather a shift to more takeaway food and video on demand.

Fire codes can be adjusted, or new occupancy limits set for health and safety reasons. It would make things safer, that’s an absolute win in my book.

The manufacturing base still exists especially the steel and shipbuilding industry.

[Ethel mermania]

No. Not “end”. Things would just be operated differently; less crowded and such. Social distancing, not lock down.

And yes, I would like to live in that world.

A restaurant or theatre production would never make a profit. Plus placing a permanent limit on gatherings would violate the first amendment of the us constitution and never hold up in court.

You'll find many don't share that sentiment.

Your sense of what the constitution says is incorrect, the only constitutional issue is applying it fairly, you can't allow different numbers to different folks. I.e if you cap indoor gathering at 25% of the legal occupancy limit, it has to apply to all organizations equally

[San Lumen]

A restaurant or theatre production would never make a profit. Plus placing a permanent limit on gatherings would violate the first amendment of the us constitution and never hold up in court.

You'll find many don't share that sentiment.

Your sense of what the constitution says is incorrect, the only constitutional issue is applying it fairly, you can't allow different numbers to different folks. I.e if you cap indoor gathering at 25% of the legal occupancy limit, it has to apply to all organizations equally

Your also impending on that business ability to make a profit. They will never make a profit at that level.

How would a permanent limit of the legal occupancy limits be constitutional when the government cannot make a law restricting freedom of assembly?

[American Pere Housh]

Entire economies would not collapse because there are fewer dine in restaurants. And I think you vastly overstate the importance of live theater to the US (which is practically zero).

If the US can survive the loss of steel, shipbuilding, much of the manufacturing base I am certain that it can weather a shift to more takeaway food and video on demand.

Fire codes can be adjusted, or new occupancy limits set for health and safety reasons. It would make things safer, that’s an absolute win in my book.

Broadway is a multi millon dollar industry. It going away would devastate the cities economy and that's just one example.

There is risk in every day life. Setting limits on the chance someone gets sick is ridiculous. Pathogens have been around since the dawn of humanity and making capacity limits or masks permanent will not change that.

Setting occupancy limits for health on a permanent basis is not feasible. The events and live entertainment would never be able to make a profit. This is simple economics. Just raising prices is not an answer.

Its not a win when you'd devastate entire economies. The government cannot ban parades or concerts either. That would be a total violation of freedom of assembly.

While I have my disagreements, what SL say is true. Pathogens of all kinds have been around since the dawn of mankind.

[Kerwa]

Broadway is a multi millon dollar industry. It going away would devastate the cities economy and that's just one example.

There is risk in every day life. Setting limits on the chance someone gets sick is ridiculous. Pathogens have been around since the dawn of humanity and making capacity limits or masks permanent will not change that.

Setting occupancy limits for health on a permanent basis is not feasible. The events and live entertainment would never be able to make a profit. This is simple economics. Just raising prices is not an answer.

Its not a win when you'd devastate entire economies. The government cannot ban parades or concerts either. That would be a total violation of freedom of assembly.

“Multi million”. Yeah so it wouldn’t devastate the city’s economy at all. Get a grip. Anyway it wouldn’t go completely, just contract.

Setting occupancy limits for safety reasons on a permanent basis is completely feasible. That sort of thing happens all the time.

[San Lumen]

Broadway is a multi millon dollar industry. It going away would devastate the cities economy and that's just one example.

There is risk in every day life. Setting limits on the chance someone gets sick is ridiculous. Pathogens have been around since the dawn of humanity and making capacity limits or masks permanent will not change that.

Setting occupancy limits for health on a permanent basis is not feasible. The events and live entertainment would never be able to make a profit. This is simple economics. Just raising prices is not an answer.

Its not a win when you'd devastate entire economies. The government cannot ban parades or concerts either. That would be a total violation of freedom of assembly.

“Multi million”. Yeah so it wouldn’t devastate the city’s economy at all. Get a grip. Anyway it wouldn’t go completely, just contract.

Setting occupancy limits for safety reasons on a permanent basis is completely feasible. That sort of thing happens all the time.

Its more than that. That contraction would mean the show cannot make a profit. If you can't sell 75 percent of tickets you will never recoup the costs to pay all your staff or even the rent. That would have a domino effect on many other industries. Its not as simple as your making it out to be.

Fire code is not the same as a permanent limit due to a chance of getting sick. Like I said pathogens have existed for as long as humans have been on this planet and setting a permanent limit below the legal limit and destroying entire industries will do nothing to change that.

[Kerwa]

The manufacturing base still exists especially the steel and shipbuilding industry.

True. But it employs a fraction of the people it used to and is a much smaller fraction of the total economy. Point is far more significant industries have contracted and it wasn’t devastating ultimately.

[American Pere Housh]

Broadway is a multi millon dollar industry. It going away would devastate the cities economy and that's just one example.

There is risk in every day life. Setting limits on the chance someone gets sick is ridiculous. Pathogens have been around since the dawn of humanity and making capacity limits or masks permanent will not change that.

Setting occupancy limits for health on a permanent basis is not feasible. The events and live entertainment would never be able to make a profit. This is simple economics. Just raising prices is not an answer.

Its not a win when you'd devastate entire economies. The government cannot ban parades or concerts either. That would be a total violation of freedom of assembly.

“Multi million”. Yeah so it wouldn’t devastate the city’s economy at all. Get a grip. Anyway it wouldn’t go completely, just contract.

Setting occupancy limits for safety reasons on a permanent basis is completely feasible. That sort of thing happens all the time.

Many states including where I live are not going to reimpose these restrictions again. Do you seriously not know how many small businesses went out of business because of the lockdowns and other Covid restrictions?

[San Lumen]

The manufacturing base still exists especially the steel and shipbuilding industry.

True. But it employs a fraction of the people it used to and is a much smaller fraction of the total economy. Point is far more significant industries have contracted and it wasn’t devastating ultimately.

really? Some towns in coal country never recovered when the mines closed. The closure of steel plants devastated whole economies.

The collapse of the shipbuilding industry took decades for some places to recover from.

[Kerwa]

Its more than that. That contraction would mean the show cannot make a profit. If you can't sell 75 percent of tickets you will never recoup the costs to pay all your staff or even the rent. That would have a domino effect on many other industries. Its not as simple as your making it out to be.

Fire code is not the same as a permanent limit due to a chance of getting sick. Like I said pathogens have existed for as long as humans have been on this planet and setting a permanent limit below the legal limit and destroying entire industries will do nothing to change that.

Of course it could still make a profit. There just wouldn’t be as much of it. And I bet production costs could be cut too. You seem fixated on the idea that there is only one way to run things. Refit the theaters for 25%,
and charge three times as much. Supply would then contract to meet the new demand.

And you miss the point. Those lives were saved quite apart from covid by masks and social distancing. It’s a permanent state of affairs which means it requires a permanent adjustment. It’s not just about covid or any particular pathogen. If everyone was tied to doing things the way they’d always been we’d still have sweatshops and asbestos blankets… maybe this is time to think about changing the way things are done once again.

[Ethel mermania]

Your sense of what the constitution says is incorrect, the only constitutional issue is applying it fairly, you can't allow different numbers to different folks. I.e if you cap indoor gathering at 25% of the legal occupancy limit, it has to apply to all organizations equally

Your also impending on that business ability to make a profit. They will never make a profit at that level.

How would a permanent limit of the legal occupancy limits be constitutional when the government cannot make a law restricting freedom of assembly?

You can assemble just not in larger numbers than the health and fire codes allow now. Its how its applied that counts.

As to the economics a lot of places have closed but your local pizza place and Chinese takeout are making a killing. The problem with the economy now is there aren't enough workers, not that ther aren't enough jobs.

[American Pere Housh]

The manufacturing base still exists especially the steel and shipbuilding industry.

True. But it employs a fraction of the people it used to and is a much smaller fraction of the total economy. Point is far more significant industries have contracted and it wasn’t devastating ultimately.

To cities like Norfolk Virginia and Mobile Alabama, the shipbuilding industry is a big part of their economies.

[North Washington Republic]

Just remember that just because the CDC issues guidelines doesn't mean the state has to follow them. There are going to be alot of people who are vaccinated who will refuse to wear a mask again as a form of civil disobedience.

The CDC guidelines are not mandates. I will continue to wear my mask because I put my trust in the CDC and not MAGA pundits when it comes to communicable diseases.

[Ethel mermania]

True. But it employs a fraction of the people it used to and is a much smaller fraction of the total economy. Point is far more significant industries have contracted and it wasn’t devastating ultimately.

really? Some towns in coal country never recovered when the mines closed. The closure of steel plants devastated whole economies.

The collapse of the shipbuilding industry took decades for some places to recover from.

Thats always been the fate of company towns. Look what happened to Kingston when ibm left. What do you want we subsidize coal mining?

[San Lumen]

Its more than that. That contraction would mean the show cannot make a profit. If you can't sell 75 percent of tickets you will never recoup the costs to pay all your staff or even the rent. That would have a domino effect on many other industries. Its not as simple as your making it out to be.

Fire code is not the same as a permanent limit due to a chance of getting sick. Like I said pathogens have existed for as long as humans have been on this planet and setting a permanent limit below the legal limit and destroying entire industries will do nothing to change that.

Of course it could still make a profit. There just wouldn’t be as much of it. And I bet production costs could be cut too. You seem fixated on the idea that there is only one way to run things. Refit the theaters for 25%,
and charge three times as much. Supply would then contract to meet the new demand.

And you miss the point. Those lives were saved quite apart from covid by masks and social distancing. It’s a permanent state of affairs which means it requires a permanent adjustment. It’s not just about covid or any particular pathogen. If everyone was tied to doing things the way they’d always been we’d still have sweatshops and asbestos blankets… maybe this is time to think about changing the way things are done once again.

No it wouldn't. The amount of money you'd have to charge to make a profit would make it unfeasible for many to go. Your also not considering the rent. The landlord is not going to charge less. Land value is a thing too. Or are they supposed to take a reduced profit and not be able to pay their bills?

Are you not seeing the snowball effect of what your suggesting?


If you made masks permanent how are children supposed to ever learn to speak properly or learn facial expression?

Sweatshops is a bad example. Conditions never needed to be that way. Regulations to prevent things like the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire could have been done before the tragedy happened.

Limiting disease in the method your suggested would cause severe economic hard and have a detrimental effect on mental health and not do much to combat something that will never go away.