MAGAThread XX: A Journal of the Plague Year

[Senkaku]

No, they literally didn't. SPD was perfectly able to control the East Precinct and the entire area around it when they wanted to, they chose to abandon not only their street presence but their precinct building, in the hopes that it would be burned-- at which point, facing targeted state absence, people responded

That is not how it went down. This is straight up historical revisionism.

Of course I suppose you would know much better than me, having not actually been there at the time!

[Galloism]

Notably, no one in DC intentionally used deadly force to maintain their seizure and hold on the capitol building, but I wouldn’t say they weren’t serious about it as a result and give them a pass.

They literally crushed a Capitol Police officer trying to get into the building, and the Capitol Police shot a woman trying to get in, and security officers drew their guns inside one of the chambers (I forget if it was House or Senate), presumably threatening to use them if people kept trying to break down the doors. There was actually a whole lot of deadly force, that's sort of why it's so alarming-- it seems like they were actually ready to kill any political figures they might've captured.

Yes, the police were using a lot of deadly force. Note what you said -

Capitol police shot a woman trying to get in. Security officers drew their guns.

The police responded to the invasion with deadly force, but there does not appear to be any intentionally deadly force on the part of the seditious attackers until later, after the police had already started using deadly force.

And when the police got serious they got the shit beat out of them.

But that doesn’t mean they weren’t serious and we should give them a pass.

[Galloism]

That is not how it went down. This is straight up historical revisionism.

Of course I suppose you would know much better than me, having not actually been there at the time!

You know, I’ve talked to a lot of people who were “there at the time” during current events, and watch them flat contradict video footage of the events in question and insist they are correct.

So I’ll take you biased perception of events with a giant grain of salt compared to the recorded history of the events.

[Senkaku]

They literally crushed a Capitol Police officer trying to get into the building, and the Capitol Police shot a woman trying to get in, and security officers drew their guns inside one of the chambers (I forget if it was House or Senate), presumably threatening to use them if people kept trying to break down the doors. There was actually a whole lot of deadly force, that's sort of why it's so alarming-- it seems like they were actually ready to kill any political figures they might've captured.

Yes, the police were using a lot of deadly force. Note what you said -

Capitol police shot a woman trying to get in. Security officers drew their guns.

The police responded to the invasion with deadly force, but there does not appear to be any intentionally deadly force on the part of the seditious attackers until later, after the police had already started using deadly force.

And when the police got serious they got the shit beat out of them.

But that doesn’t mean they weren’t serious and we should give them a pass.

The actions of the police were part of my point. They acted as you would expect state agents would, when defending critical state infrastructure or territory against invasion and seizure. People at CHOP never did this, hence taking their secessionism seriously is nonsensical. For this reason and many others, analogies between CHOP and the coup are bad analogies, because it does make sense to take the coup plotters' lethal intentions seriously.

[San Montalbano]

Of course I suppose you would know much better than me, having not actually been there at the time!

You know, I’ve talked to a lot of people who were “there at the time” during current events, and watch them flat contradict video footage of the events in question and insist they are correct.

So I’ll take you biased perception of events with a giant grain of salt compared to the recorded history of the events.

I was told chaz was a summer of love

[Galloism]

Yes, the police were using a lot of deadly force. Note what you said -

Capitol police shot a woman trying to get in. Security officers drew their guns.

The police responded to the invasion with deadly force, but there does not appear to be any intentionally deadly force on the part of the seditious attackers until later, after the police had already started using deadly force.

And when the police got serious they got the shit beat out of them.

But that doesn’t mean they weren’t serious and we should give them a pass.

The actions of the police were part of my point. They acted as you would expect state agents would, when defending critical state infrastructure or territory against invasion and seizure. People at CHOP never did this, hence taking their secessionism seriously is nonsensical. For this reason and many others, analogies between CHOP and the coup are bad analogies, because it does make sense to take the coup plotters' lethal intentions seriously.

And it makes sense to take CHAZ literally seizing territory, declaring that it’s no longer part of the United States, wandering around in paramilitary fashion with large weapons, running illegal checkpoints, and shooting teenage kids very seriously.

I think we need to take the gradually escalating political violence seriously, regardless of who is engaging in it.

Clearly this is a very unusual position.

[Senkaku]

The actions of the police were part of my point. They acted as you would expect state agents would, when defending critical state infrastructure or territory against invasion and seizure. People at CHOP never did this, hence taking their secessionism seriously is nonsensical. For this reason and many others, analogies between CHOP and the coup are bad analogies, because it does make sense to take the coup plotters' lethal intentions seriously.

And it makes sense to take CHAZ literally seizing territory, declaring that it’s no longer part of the United States, wandering around in paramilitary fashion with large weapons, running illegal checkpoints, and shooting teenage kids very seriously.

I think we need to take the gradually escalating political violence seriously, regardless of who is engaging in it.

Clearly this is a very unusual position.

Well, if we're just going to be repeating the same buzzwords over and over rather than reading posts, I will tap out

[San Montalbano]

The actions of the police were part of my point. They acted as you would expect state agents would, when defending critical state infrastructure or territory against invasion and seizure. People at CHOP never did this, hence taking their secessionism seriously is nonsensical. For this reason and many others, analogies between CHOP and the coup are bad analogies, because it does make sense to take the coup plotters' lethal intentions seriously.

And it makes sense to take CHAZ literally seizing territory, declaring that it’s no longer part of the United States, wandering around in paramilitary fashion with large weapons, running illegal checkpoints, and shooting teenage kids very seriously.

I think we need to take the gradually escalating political violence seriously, regardless of who is engaging in it.

Clearly this is a very unusual position.

That was a summer of love and mostly peaceful

[Galloism]

And it makes sense to take CHAZ literally seizing territory, declaring that it’s no longer part of the United States, wandering around in paramilitary fashion with large weapons, running illegal checkpoints, and shooting teenage kids very seriously.

I think we need to take the gradually escalating political violence seriously, regardless of who is engaging in it.

Clearly this is a very unusual position.

Well, if we're just going to be repeating the same buzzwords over and over rather than reading posts, I will tap out

I mean, we can’t get around that that’s what actually happened in real life.

So.......

[Neutraligon]

Well, if we're just going to be repeating the same buzzwords over and over rather than reading posts, I will tap out

I mean, we can’t get around that that’s what actually happened in real life.

So.......

I think while the political violence needs to be looked into (and this has been happening for far longer then this year, all we need to do is look back to the Bundy thing) I think we can still differentiate between the intent of those who invaded the capitol and those who set up CHAZ. It is clear that the harm of the politicians was the intent of those who invaded the capitol, that is not the case with CHAZ. I do think that CHAZ and Bundy are a far better comparison then CHAZ and the capitol.

[Galloism]

I mean, we can’t get around that that’s what actually happened in real life.

So.......

I think while the political violence needs to be looked into (and this has been happening for far longer then this year, all we need to do is look back to the Bundy thing) I think we can still differentiate between the intent of those who invaded the capitol and those who set up CHAZ. It is clear that the harm of the politicians was the intent of those who invaded the capitol, that is not the case with CHAZ. I do think that CHAZ and Bundy are a far better comparison then CHAZ and the capitol.

Eh, I mostly seized on it for the sedition element and the intentional defiance of federal legal authority by force.

Reading over the cattle thing for bunny that’s a decent fit too.

Also they were all pretty recent.

[Adamede]

No. And I pray you're never allowed to even be a community organizer let alone a president, or you'd make Trump look like George Washington with your bad ideas.

Im with Biden what are you on about?

You’ve spouted nothing but authoritarian beliefs today.

[Adamede]

Yes, but we do not use the term sedition on them, which is interesting. What people consider sedition seems...very ambiguous. Depending on how Chaz happened I might see it as sedition against the state since they did not allow the state police (or did they just block city police) from discharging their duty. But then I believe preventing police from discharging there legal duty is itself a separate crime.

City police were ORDERED to leave the area and not to enter by the mayor, whenever they were ordered in they easily forced their way in

I am so sick of explaining this to people

Well then perhaps the mayor themselves was possibly committing sedition.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

56 blue lives where injured by the people who said blue lives matter.

[Myrensis]

There are no brakes on the crazy train

[Rusozak]

56 blue lives where injured by the people who said blue lives matter.

I never doubted the "Blue Lives Matter" crowd only cares when people they don't like are being busted.

[Vassenor]

56 blue lives where injured by the people who said blue lives matter.

Almost like Blue Lives Matter was more about shouting down Black Lives Matter than anything to do with actually supporting the police.

[Page]

56 blue lives where injured by the people who said blue lives matter.

Gang of thugs injured by gang of thugs, tune into the 6 o'clock news to hear this story!

[Celritannia]

That does not make there actions right or similar to BLM though.

If we are supposed to be impartial, then we cannot allow ourselves to think like people who would believe in such a nonsensical concept all because the person they have come to regards as their saviour told them to do it in the first place.

Any one who incites violence against the state for their own political power and allows the very institute of democracy come to a halt has already lost.

I don't care if you think they're wrong or why.

And asking me to put myself in the mind of these people who believe there was fraud is like asking me to put my mind in a serial killer and be sympathetic to why they did it.

It makes no fucking sense because we have evidence.
Should we deny evidence?

[Borderlands of Rojava]

I don't care if you think they're wrong or why.

And asking me to put myself in the mind of these people who believe there was fraud is like asking me to put my mind in a serial killer and be sympathetic to why they did it.

It makes no fucking sense because we have evidence.
Should we deny evidence?

I'm better at understanding them but only because I have the misfortune of living in an area where many people are Trump supporters. Evidence and facts are foreign concepts to them, which is why they still think the election was stolen despite it having been over since November.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

And it makes sense to take CHAZ literally seizing territory, declaring that it’s no longer part of the United States, wandering around in paramilitary fashion with large weapons, running illegal checkpoints, and shooting teenage kids very seriously.

I think we need to take the gradually escalating political violence seriously, regardless of who is engaging in it.

Clearly this is a very unusual position.

That was a summer of love and mostly peaceful

Do you even have a central unifying belief or no? Because one minute you're calling for American autocracy and the next you're making excuses for the CHAZ.

The CHAZ was not an existential thread to the existence of America. But Jesus christ that was not a SuMmEr Of LoVe. It was very much the summer of hate. Cities burned, people got ran over and shot and within the CHAZ itself at least a few people were murdered. You can support BLM and admit most of the protests were peaceful while simulatenously not being so out of touch that you think last summer was a "summer of love" while shit like this happened: https://youtu.be/6uDIg2fN2T4

[Galloism]

I don't care if you think they're wrong or why.

And asking me to put myself in the mind of these people who believe there was fraud is like asking me to put my mind in a serial killer and be sympathetic to why they did it.

It makes no fucking sense because we have evidence.
Should we deny evidence?

That’s not what he’s asking you to do. You’ve completely missed the point of the discussion. Let’s make this easy.

A person doesn’t like a new gun control law, so they decide to blow up Congress sort of like American Guy Fawkes.
A person doesn’t like the law that congresses re: crack and regular cocaine, so they decide to blow up Congress sort of like American Guy Fawkes.
A person doesn’t like that congress accepted votes for trump in 2016, so they decide to blow up Congress sort of like American Guy Fawkes.
A person doesn’t like that congress accepted votes for Biden in 2020, so they decide to blow up Congress sort of like American Guy Fawkes.
A person doesn’t like that Congress just passed a law taxing white people more than black people based on the color of their skin, so they decide to blow up Congress sort of like American Guy Fawkes.
A person doesn’t like that congress passed a law to kick all black people out of the country to their countries of original origin, so they decide to blow up Congress sort of like American Guy Fawkes.
A person doesn’t like that congress passed a law to have all black people executed for “racial harmony”, so they decide to blow up Congress sort of like American Guy Fawkes.

Now, in which of these scenarios did American Guy Fawkes commit sedition (along with a number of other crimes, likely murder attempted/murder, trespassing, arson, etc).

[Cannot think of a name]

Oh sweet fuck are we still doing this? Alright, then. Let's get into it. Let's get into how flawed and actually counter productive or down right insulting this line of thinking is.

I'll spoiler this as a courtesy to those who just want to skip this dumbass discussion.

Flawed premise #1:
The Capitol Riots and CHOP are inherently linked as similar if not 'same' events and one must consider both in order to be self reflective.

This relies on a very squint view of both events to make them similar, so that we focus on hard definitions of terms without context. The taking of Capitol Hill and the taking of the Capitol are both inherently violent. As long as we remove all context and we focus solely on the violence, they are the same.

This of course forces us to tell lies about CHOP, it's intent, and the majority of its actions building on scaremongering myths of what happened at CHOP. For instance, the Capitol building was stormed by a violent crowd and met with little violence in resistance.

Criticism centres on preparation by police and their failure to anticipate possible violence, despite evidence that radical pro-Trump supporters and other groups were openly discussing their plans online.

The Washington Post, citing sources close to the matter, says that Capitol Police charged with guarding the building and its grounds did not make early requests for help from the city's main police force or the National Guard nor set-up a multiagency command centre to coordinate response to any violence.

And without an adequate security perimeter in place, their sparse police lines were quickly overwhelmed by thousands descending on the Capitol.
...
Even hours into Wednesday's violence, protesters were filmed being escorted or guided out of the building without arrest - even appearing to be helped down the Capitol stairs and having doors held open for them to exit. Another viral clip appeared to show a police officer posing for a selfie with a man inside.

By contrast, Capitol Hill was abandoned by the police after eight days of clashes with protesters using rubber bullets, tear gas, and clubs-violent acts against the protesters by the police. Only after negotiations as public sentiment turned against police reaction to the nationwide protests, the police re-opened the streets in negotiation with the protesters:

"We will be decreasing our footprint around the East Precinct, because protesters have requested it," Best said Monday afternoon. "They want the streets open for peaceful marches, and we're going to facilitate that opportunity for them," she said.

She also said that even though officers would not continue to guard the building, they still had no tolerance for property damage.

"We will not allow violent actors to destroy a city facility," she said, adding that Seattle Fire officials had tested the building's fire-suppression system and applied fire retardant to the building's exterior, while boarding over the windows.

While Chief Best acknowledged the unprecedented response to the BLM movement taught her “policing will never be the same,” she still voiced concern that if someone in CHOP is harmed, it could lead to “something that devolves into a force situation.” When pressed by the broadcaster to clarify whether CHOP is peaceful, Best replied, “For the time being, yes, it is.”

What did these two bodies do once they had seized the ground they were after? The Capitol Rioters went hunting congresspeople, looting and destroying the building and stealing government property.

Meanwhile, the CHOP protesters-

But instead of focusing on the building, for the next several hours, the loud swarm of protesters appeared focused on sharing and exchanging ideas regarding the urgent need for racial justice and national police use -of -force reform. Without a single officer in sight, the crowd did what SPD Police Chief Carmen Best was hoping: to allow protesters access, while protecting her staff.

Compare insider accounts of the Capitol Riots-

CNN aired a horrifying video Friday night, first published by investigative outlet Status Coup, showing a police officer pinned between a door and the mob. The officer screamed in agony.
...
Only later did it become clear that lawmakers feared for their lives; that some of the attackers were hunting for congressional leaders; that there could have been a massacre.
...
On the internet, Hayes' segment was titled "Must-see new video shows Capitol riot was way worse than we thought."
He pointed out that "it is entirely possible that there were people in that crowd, looking to apprehend, possibly harm, and possibly murder the leaders of the political class that the President, and people like Mo Brooks, and even to a certain extent Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley, have told them have betrayed them."
...
The fuller videos that came out on Thursday and Friday provided much more detail. The Daily podcast from The New York Times played audio clips of rioters chanting "Where's Mike Pence? Where's Mike Pence? Where is Mike Pence? Find Mike Pence."
Progressive writer Mike Konczal, a director at the Roosevelt Institute, tweeted on Friday, "That the occupation of the Capitol was far more violent, and had the capacity for far more violence, than I understood while it was happening is the most jarring thing I've learned about the putsch over the subsequent days. It's terrifying."
...
Something else that was even worse than we knew at the time: The attacks against members of the media. Erin Schaff of The New York Times later described what happened when the mob saw her Times ID. "They threw me to the floor, trying to take my cameras. I started screaming for help as loudly as I could," she said. "No one came. People just watched. At this point, I thought I could be killed and no one would stop them. They ripped one of my cameras away from me, broke a lens on the other and ran away." She fled and found a place to hide.

To Capitol Hill:

Minutes after SPD officers were ordered away from their guard posts surrounding the East Precinct, protesters moved in and promptly moved out dozens of large plastic traffic barriers.— which city utility workers had just filled with water and placed around the building — clearly in hope of protecting the building with a buffer zone.

But instead of focusing on the building, for the next several hours, the loud swarm of protesters appeared focused on sharing and exchanging ideas regarding the urgent need for racial justice and national police use -of -force reform. Without a single officer in sight, the crowd did what SPD Police Chief Carmen Best was hoping: to allow protesters access, while protecting her staff.

More:

But step inside the Jersey barriers that block off numerous streets, and you’ll soon realize something else: It’s a peaceful realm where people build nearly everything on the fly, as they strive to create a world where the notion that black lives matter shifts from being a slogan to an ever-present reality.

The people who stream through the area are a census taker’s dream, a mix of different races, ages, genders, physical abilities, and class identities who rub elbows without seemingly rubbing each other the wrong way. Along the street, the collective mood runs from calm to contemplative, festive to mournful, the energy punctuated by the rhythmic call-and-response of today’s call-to-arms: “Whose lives matter?” “Black lives matter!”

Inside one cordoned-off intersection, some 100 people focus on a lineup of speakers, including Mark Anthony. Jr., an African-American man in a clear plastic poncho and Seattle Seahawks facemask, who’s participating in a daily info session known as a general assembly. “This is what love and unity looks like,” Anthony, 32, says as he gazes upon the peaceful crowd.

Since then, the area has been reimagined. An improvised street-side market created with folding tables and open coolers, called the “No-Cop Co-Op,” offers free items from maxi-pads to oat milk. Street art adorns the pavement. Hitch trailers hold cubic yards of compost to spread in pop-up gardens that partially cover what, days ago, was open greenspace. Ever-growing altars, composed of printed photos and wilting flowers and dozens of flickering candles, honor Floyd and other black people, including Breonna Taylor of Kentucky, who were killed by police.

More:

Protester Grace Morgan, from Portland, Oregon, told the BBC that she travelled up to the Chaz about a week after it had been established.

"It was absolutely astonishing," she said. "There was a food co-op, as well as a full medics corner with actual doctors from around the city that had volunteered, and had their own ambulance. There were classes, lectures, speakers, poetry, lots of live music, huge works of art… It was really beautiful."

By strict definitions by pendants the two are similar, but that similarity falls apart under any closer inspection than strict definition.

Flawed premise #2:
That's all fine and good, but violence is violence and violence cannot be condemned in one instance and condoned in another.

This carries the inherent assumption that the violent aspect of CHOP was in fact condoned by the supporters of CHOP. This is, to be direct, a lie of omission.

Some protesters told KIRO 7 that while they believe the street should be reopened, they also believed the building could become a target for destruction.

"I understand that because of what happened in Minneapolis, when the 3rd Precinct burned down," Frank Grimes said. "And that’s one of the reasons why I'm out here today is to make sure that doesn't happen again."

Frank and others here say that fighting for police accountability also involves protecting the message from being corrupted by damage.

With a largely peaceful on the protesters part beginning, when violence occurred people who did support CHOP did not support the violence:

Durkan praised the mostly peaceful protest in a statement Monday, yet signaled that it was time for protesters to leave CHOP because of the late-night violence.

“[O]ver the last month thousands of people, including families, have visited the area and shown their support for the messages of equity and change,” read the statement. “Unfortunately, that message has been undermined by the violence in the area. The area has increasingly attracted more individuals bent on division and violence, and it is risking the lives of individuals.”

This also carries with it that the violence in CHOP was one sided and perpetrated predominantly by the CHOP protestors, something that is not born out by the facts or the perception of the people who lived there:

"People were making beats and music just with the things we had around us… and a few spontaneous dance parties broke out," she said. Police officers stayed away for most of the night, which Grace said felt "pretty suspect": "Every other night, the cop presence had been very strong - they had been constantly breaking us up, tear-gassing us, and shooting us with rubber bullets, flash bangs and pepper balls."

While Durkan and the Seattle Police Department used the recent violence as justification to move in and retake the area from protesters, some people who live in the area worried about the SPD’s return. “I feel marginally more dread than the early parts of the protests,” local Capitol Hill resident John McCartney told Vox. “People here seem angrier, but there also seem to be fewer protesters.”
...
In the first week of CHOP’s existence, people who were spending a lot of time at the protest told Vox they felt safe there. “Talking with my friends and talking with a couple of people on the ground, I keep hearing people say, ‘I never felt this safe walking in the city,’” Carla, who had been regularly hanging out in the area, told Vox in mid-June. “The knowledge that the police aren’t there [has created] this feeling that this is a space that belongs to everybody.”
...
Vox spoke with 13 local residents and protesters on background — most of whom have taken part in the protests against racism and police violence that preceded CHOP, and also spent time in and around CHOP — about what’s been happening in the neighborhood over the past week and a half.

Locals paint a muddled picture of an area where confusion — and fear of far-right counterprotesters — often reigns. One person who works a block away from CHOP and asked to remain anonymous to protect her privacy, said her car was vandalized while she was at work last week, which she attributed to her left-wing political bumper stickers. Since then, management from her employer have escorted her to her car every night after her shift is over.

In speaking with locals, a tale of two CHOPs emerges: daytime CHOP and nighttime CHOP. During the day, there’s more of a community feel, with neighbors out and about inside CHOP while protests are ongoing. But most of the people who spoke with Vox didn’t feel safe walking at night in the area, especially in the past week and a half.

But that’s not necessarily a unique feeling in the area, which is a popular bar and entertainment district within the city. The type of violence has changed since CHOP was established, one local explained: In their accounting, it went from drunk white bar patrons (often men) causing havoc on Friday and Saturday nights, along with the occasional police response to a homeless person in the area, to the violence that has taken place inside CHOP recently.

“Like a lot of nightlife districts, it is not a comfortable place for female-presenting folks to be out at night,” said McCartney, who was the only local willing to be quoted by full name for this story. Several women and trans people speaking on background confirmed his statement to Vox. In August 2017, for example, a trans woman was allegedly assaulted by a group of male patrons at a bar in the neighborhood.

At the same time, McCartney said, there’s a rift between people who have lived in the area for a while and the tech workers who have moved in recently. “I feel a lot of the current ‘it’s not safe’ stuff comes from either people who aren’t living in the neighborhood itself or from affluent new arrivals, or from business owners.”
...
Most of the people who spoke with Vox took part in the eight days of intense — and often violent — protests that preceded the abandonment of the East Precinct building and the establishment of CHOP. They largely don’t view the police as protectors of the area and worry about potential retaliation now that police are seemingly back.

One local woman who spoke to Vox on condition of anonymity had become frustrated with CHOP violence over the past 10 days, especially the latest shooting. But she also said the police likely aren’t the answer to the neighborhood’s violence problem.

“The police aren’t what make me feel safe or unsafe; I certainly didn’t feel safe when they were tear-gassing the neighborhood and shooting rubber bullets at us as we marched,” she said. “But if the police presence can disperse the people that have gathered and made camp here who are perpetuating violence, then yes, I’ll feel safer. But that’s not a guarantee.”

Another pointed out that the Seattle Police Department has been under federal oversight since 2012 following several incidences of violence against the community. One example cited in the case was the death of John T. Williams in 2011 when an SPD officer was overheard shouting a racial slur about a Latino man. Mayor Durkan, who was a US attorney at the time, led the investigation.

Politically motivated focus on violence, exaggeration, and straight up falsehoods are not a new part of how CHOP is portrayed:

In contrast, some conservative media outlets portray a growing rebellion. FOX News digitally altered photos to create the image of a rifle-toting man standing in front of a broken store window, an event that never happened in CHOP. In President Trump’s ongoing practice of governance by tweet, he labels occupiers “terrorists” and “anarchists.” If Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkan didn’t “take back” the city, he warned, “I will.” After reminding the president that sending U.S. military troops into the city would be illegal, Durkan replied, “There is no imminent threat of an invasion of Seattle.”

This will become extra important later.

It is intellectually dishonest to suggest that people who were supportive of CHOP's goals were also supportive of violent or destructive behavior as seen during the Capitol Riot. Where the riots celebrated their violence and were solely defined by it, the violence of CHOP clearly troubled the participants and supporters. Where the Capitol Riot was a one sided invasion and attack on a space, CHOP formed out of a reaction towards violent suppression of protest.

The premise that support of CHOP or the message of BLM and the George Floyd protests in general is flawed because it supports the violence that happened at CHOP is flawed at best and a lie of omission at worst. The condemnation of violence happened in real time and discussions of what the movement was continuously condemned violence as counter productive to its cause.

Meanwhile, Trump told the rioters that they were special and he loved them.

But the fact is, four people were killed and assaults were reported. It is also a fact that those who supported CHOP did not support, endorse, or excuse those violent acts. Nor is it clear that they were a part of the protest or in spite of it. Regardless, CHOP was not able to prevent the violence while the area was under their control and the area was violently dismantled by the police.

Flawed Premise #3:
It doesn't matter why each protest happened.

The logic, if we'll call it that, is that 'both sides believe their right, therefore we cannot examine the root cause just the feeling of justification.'

This is dumb on its face, because it asks us to remove all context and critical thought. It's important for people who want to draw a false equivalence because if we just accept a GMS style "facts and opinions are interchangeable" outlook then we can draw easy comparisons.

The problem, and this will tighten a whole lot of sphincters, is that it plays into a racist narrative that has been present in the United States for years.

As already established, CHOP came about after 8 straight days of police violence against protesters. This was part of a larger pattern that continued across the nation.

The ‘Black Lives Matter’ protests that have swept the US since May 2020, in the wake of the killings of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, and other Black Americans, constitute one of the largest uprisings against systemic racism in policing in the US in a generation.

But this popular movement has itself been met with widespread and egregious police brutality. And more than ever before, evidence of that violence has been captured in videos and images.

Together with Bellingcat, FA has geolocated and verified over a thousand incidents of police violence, analysed them according to multiple categories, and presented the resulting data in an interactive cartographic platform.

Out of the data emerges a picture of officers and departments engaging in widespread and systemic violence toward civilian protesters, journalists, medics, and legal observers.

That violence has entailed continuous and grievous breaches of codes of conduct, the dangerous use of so-called ‘less-lethal’ munitions, reckless deployment of toxic chemical agents, and persistent disregard for constitutional and humanitarian norms.

The data reveals patterns and trends across months of violence, including the use of tactics such as ‘kettling’, and interactions between officers and members of far-right hate groups and militias.

This research is already supporting prospective legal action, independent monitoring, reporting, and advocacy, as well as movement demands for accountability and abolition.

By contrast, the Capitol Riots were the result of unfounded fears and outright lies stoked by none other than the President himself who mobilized this mob in his own self interest.

In essence what is being asked is that if we are to condemn the violent reaction of the Capitol Rioters we must also condemn the proportionately less violent reaction to continued violence. For the most part by the very people who turned that violence from BLM to the countries legislature.

Think about that. Think about asking people who were on the receiving end of violence not just over the course of the summer but the better part of 400 years in this country to be sorry about a handful of violent backlashes to violence before they can condemn the violence of those same people enacted against the seat of government itself.

It doesn't matter what people 'believe', there are facts and facts matter.

Furthermore, focusing on the messaging over the message has been a way to marginalize and ignore the very real issues raised in civil rights movements. We're not allowed to consider the root causes and complaints because we're handwringing over the message in a large movement were even among participants violence was a minority and that blocks us from criticizing a movement that was inherently violent by every participant.

Just a year earlier opponents of police violence against black people and minorities were told they couldn't protest that violence simply by taking a knee during the national anthem of a professional sporting event. They were called "sons of bitches" again by the president, their jobs and pay were threatened. Their concerns were dismissed, people disengeniously suggested that they 'didn't know what they were protesting' despite them being clear or that they were 'disrespecting the military' as if the flag represented the military and not the other way around.

If you're black in America you are seeing that even the most privileged members, rich athletes otherwise idolized by millions, were still not full participants in society. That even with money and recognition, they were still marginalized and ignored.

After a year of nationwide protest that was by most reasonable accounts largely peaceful, incidents of violence became the focus even when it was clear that they were not responsible for much of it and that the violence was disproportionately guided by response to otherwise peaceful protest, including the President of the United States using violence against protesters for a fucking photo-op.

By reaching back to CHOP to attack the BLM civil rights movement in the midst of a right wing white supremist attack on the seat of government continues a long tradition of de-legitimizing the push for civil rights of black people that dates all the way back to slavery where the mere act of electing an anti-slavery government was considered 'violent' and was met with disproportionate violence in a Civil War.

You want self reflection? Reflect on the pattern you're playing into by creating a strained false equivalence between racist supporters of a piece of shit president who egged them on to deligitimize protests against centuries of violence against black people in America.

Reflect on that.

But miss me on the 'it's all the same if we squint hard enough.' You're not condemning violence, you're making excuses for the continued violence against an oppressed people in order to create the illusion of some sort of enlightened centricism/above it all and it's dirty. It smells bad, and that smell will follow you.

[Des-Bal]

So violence occured quicker and was more accepted. Sure disproves that "escalation thing."

[Cannot think of a name]

So violence occured quicker and was more accepted. Sure disproves that "escalation thing."

Wow.