Northumbrian/Northern nationalism: NOW A REALITY?

[Vassenor]

If the UK falls apart I doubt Northern England is going to be the breaking point.

I mean right now it's looking like a pretty dead cert that Scotland is out.

[Nationalist Northumbria]

More like thousands of people who have openly demonstrated their support, and a thousand who have registered as being willing to help out by campaigning IRL once the coronavirus is done.

I mean they followed a Twitter account. That's all it takes, right?

Pull the other one, it rings.

NSG won't be satisfied that there is existing support for Northumbrian/Northern independence until we win a referendum. Even then I doubt it.

This is truly impressive. the sheer strength and coherence of this delusion

Is Scottish or Welsh independence a "delusion"?

I think the closest comparison would actually be to the social media success UKIP saw in the runup to 2014.

Which, in the next FPTP election in 2015 gained all of... one seat.

Much success.

And by 2017... no seats.

And I don't imagine this will be the same... erm... rip-roaring success. For a start, it would only be targeting the North (and there are plenty of local interest parties there that lose their deposit every election).

UKIP did succeed, though. That's why we have Brexit.

It's deeply unfortunate that this appears to be the attitude of most people here. I was hoping we could have a reasonable discussion about the merits of Northumbrian independence in light of the fact that mass support has now been demonstrated.

Yet you haven't listed any substantial merits on Northumbrian independence beyond your just wanting a medieval kingdom that hasn't existed in well over a millennium to gain independence for some reason.

It's not a medieval kingdom, it's the North. That's like saying the Macedon of Alexander the Great is exactly the same as the modern-day FYROM. It's about the North's control over the North after decades of Westminster imposing disastrous policies and doing nothing to help (see: the 1980s, coronavirus restrictions followed by outright punishing Manchester because Manchester said that the support wasn't enough).

[Nationalist Northumbria]

Just, why, though?

Besides making yourselves smaller and weaker, what goal is accomplished by dividing into a smaller piece?

because it got some likes on twitter, theres some LARPers and allegedly a culture which he fails to elaborate on

The North is different from the South. This has been acknowledged for centuries and the dividing line is typically taken as somewhere along the Trent, though it also has to do with geology and the uplands vs transitional area vs lowlands.

Just, why, though?

Besides making yourselves smaller and weaker, what goal is accomplished by dividing into a smaller piece?

Some peole hate even the smallest and most minute differences in culture and politics and so want to burn the whole thing down.

I wouldn't go that far, but I can see why some people might interpret what Westminster has done over the years as that.

[Vassenor]

Is Scottish or Welsh independence a "delusion"?

Scottish independence actually has demonstrable widespread support and isn't based around the number of followers a single Twitter account has.

[The Free Joy State]

Which, in the next FPTP election in 2015 gained all of... one seat.

Much success.

And by 2017... no seats.

And I don't imagine this will be the same... erm... rip-roaring success. For a start, it would only be targeting the North (and there are plenty of local interest parties there that lose their deposit every election).

UKIP did succeed, though. That's why we have Brexit.

If you're really wanting to cite the potential success of "Northumbrian independence" (although the area you want to subsume into Northumbria is largely not part of Northumbria, and several areas have their own small cultural "independence" parties -- I'm sure they would love being told they're Northumbrians now ), I really wouldn't call on Brexit for your support, especially seeing as it expected to cost the UK economy more than COVID (unless we can make a deal with the trading block we left).

Northumbrian independence -- further splitting the country into more fragmented blocks -- would make an already weakened nation weaker.

Fortunately, I do not credit it with any chance of ever getting anywhere.

[Vassenor]

UKIP did succeed, though. That's why we have Brexit.

And how's that worked out?

[Plzen]

I think that Scottish independence will have to happen before this even becomes a serious political proposal. Until and unless Holyrood rules an independent nation, North English independence is and will remain a joke.

And even with the SNP getting everything they want, even then this will be unlikely.

[Crysuko]

because it got some likes on twitter, theres some LARPers and allegedly a culture which he fails to elaborate on

The North is different from the South. This has been acknowledged for centuries and the dividing line is typically taken as somewhere along the Trent, though it also has to do with geology and the uplands vs transitional area vs lowlands.

Some peole hate even the smallest and most minute differences in culture and politics and so want to burn the whole thing down.

I wouldn't go that far, but I can see why some people might interpret what Westminster has done over the years as that.

this vague gesturing of there being a difference only makes you look more and more like a crackpot

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

It's not a medieval kingdom, it's the North. That's like saying the Macedon of Alexander the Great is exactly the same as the modern-day FYROM.

Then you should probably not refer directly, in name, to a medieval kingdom that has not existed in any form since the 10th century, unlike Macedonia which has a significantly longer and more storied history and has legitimate political presence in the world.

It's about the North's control over the North after decades of Westminster imposing disastrous policies and doing nothing to help (see: the 1980s, coronavirus restrictions followed by outright punishing Manchester because Manchester said that the support wasn't enough).

And these are good enough reasons for independence because....?

[Nationalist Northumbria]

UKIP did succeed, though. That's why we have Brexit.

And how's that worked out?

It's happened.

UKIP did succeed, though. That's why we have Brexit.

If you're really wanting to cite the potential success of "Northumbrian independence" (although the area you want to subsume into Northumbria is largely not part of Northumbria, and several areas have their own small cultural "independence" parties -- I'm sure they would love being told they're Northumbrians now ), I really wouldn't call on Brexit for your support, especially seeing as it expected to cost the UK economy more than COVID (unless we can make a deal with the trading block we left).

Northumbrian independence -- further splitting the country into more fragmented blocks -- would make an already weakened nation weaker.

Fortunately, I do not credit it with any chance of ever getting anywhere.

We're talking about parties being able to get policies passed, not anything else.

Is Scottish or Welsh independence a "delusion"?

Scottish independence actually has demonstrable widespread support and isn't based around the number of followers a single Twitter account has.

As I've said, we'll see the support after the 2021 locals. Was it delusional in the 1970s?

[Vassenor]

And how's that worked out?

It's happened.

If you're really wanting to cite the potential success of "Northumbrian independence" (although the area you want to subsume into Northumbria is largely not part of Northumbria, and several areas have their own small cultural "independence" parties -- I'm sure they would love being told they're Northumbrians now ), I really wouldn't call on Brexit for your support, especially seeing as it expected to cost the UK economy more than COVID (unless we can make a deal with the trading block we left).

Northumbrian independence -- further splitting the country into more fragmented blocks -- would make an already weakened nation weaker.

Fortunately, I do not credit it with any chance of ever getting anywhere.

We're talking about parties being able to get policies passed, not anything else.

Scottish independence actually has demonstrable widespread support and isn't based around the number of followers a single Twitter account has.

As I've said, we'll see the support after the 2021 locals. Was it delusional in the 1970s?

Just because it's happened doesn't make it a good thing. And why don't you prove it has a reasonable chance of suddenly gaining mainstream support in six months?

[Crysuko]

And how's that worked out?

It's happened.

If you're really wanting to cite the potential success of "Northumbrian independence" (although the area you want to subsume into Northumbria is largely not part of Northumbria, and several areas have their own small cultural "independence" parties -- I'm sure they would love being told they're Northumbrians now ), I really wouldn't call on Brexit for your support, especially seeing as it expected to cost the UK economy more than COVID (unless we can make a deal with the trading block we left).

Northumbrian independence -- further splitting the country into more fragmented blocks -- would make an already weakened nation weaker.

Fortunately, I do not credit it with any chance of ever getting anywhere.

We're talking about parties being able to get policies passed, not anything else.

Scottish independence actually has demonstrable widespread support and isn't based around the number of followers a single Twitter account has.

As I've said, we'll see the support after the 2021 locals. Was it delusional in the 1970s?

your precious twitter account has fewer followers than lord binface, and your only public support comes from limited polls of people who said that they would be basically ok with it. who's passionate (other than you), where's the organisation? where is anything needed to build a seperatist movement

[The Free Joy State]

It's happened.


We're talking about parties being able to get policies passed, not anything else.


As I've said, we'll see the support after the 2021 locals. Was it delusional in the 1970s?

your precious twitter account has fewer followers than lord binface, and your only public support comes from limited polls of people who said that they would be basically ok with it. who's passionate (other than you), where's the organisation? where is anything needed to build a seperatist movement

Larry the No 10 Cat has 409.3k followers (compared to 13.4k)...

Rule by cats, anyone?

If you're really wanting to cite the potential success of "Northumbrian independence" (although the area you want to subsume into Northumbria is largely not part of Northumbria, and several areas have their own small cultural "independence" parties -- I'm sure they would love being told they're Northumbrians now ), I really wouldn't call on Brexit for your support, especially seeing as it expected to cost the UK economy more than COVID (unless we can make a deal with the trading block we left).

Northumbrian independence -- further splitting the country into more fragmented blocks -- would make an already weakened nation weaker.

Fortunately, I do not credit it with any chance of ever getting anywhere.

We're talking about parties being able to get policies passed, not anything else.

So, what this suggests is that it doesn't particularly matter if independence will actually benefit anyone or not? You merely care that it happens, so you can say it happened, then let the cards fall where they may?

What a charming slogan that will make for your club.

[Celritannia]

Then alter the title of the thread at least.

Done.

Y'know guys, because the North, the Midlands, Wales, and the South West are all suffering under Tory England, we should all unite:

(Image)

You're the one bringing up political borders from 1500 years ago, not us.

You still have Northumbrian Nationalism in the title, leading us to believe it is another one of those nonsensical concepts.

NIP is using the Northumbrian flag, and states they are influences by the ancient Northumbrian Kingdom.
So it is Northumbrian Nationalism. This isn't about the North of England.
They have not taken the concerns of Yorkshire, or the North West into consideration properly.

Really, this thread should be merged with the UK political thread. It's too niche to be it's own thread, and it is UK politically based.

[The Free Joy State]

Done.


You're the one bringing up political borders from 1500 years ago, not us.

You still have Northumbrian Nationalism in the title, leading us to believe it is another one of those nonsensical concepts.

NIP is using the Northumbrian flag, and states they are influences by the ancient Northumbrian Kingdom.
So it is Northumbrian Nationalism. This isn't about the North of England.
They have not taken the concerns of Yorkshire, or the North West into consideration properly.

Really, this thread should be merged with the UK political thread. It's too niche to be it's own thread, and it is UK politically based.

As one of the UK Politics Thread participants (while it is ultimately a moderation decision)... please, no.

This does not represent a mainstream UK political opinion. In the middle of a pandemic and Brexit discussions, I don't want pages of discussion on matters of key importance to the future of the UK clogged with this fringe of the fringe... idea.

[Celritannia]

I mean they followed a Twitter account. That's all it takes, right?

Pull the other one, it rings.

NSG won't be satisfied that there is existing support for Northumbrian/Northern independence until we win a referendum. Even then I doubt it.

Because the North is no one united concept. It has not unifying culture, no unifying identity, no real factor that unites the North as a whole.

Yorkshire does have its own culture, identity, and a unifying factor, as does Lancashire.

It would actually be more logical for the North of England to join an independent Scotland, along with Wales, and rename it The Commonwealth of Prydain.

[Esalia]

No.

Take your fanfic elsewhere Monk.

In this thread I have shown that there is in fact support for independence, something that has been denied by opponents of Northumbrian/Northern independence in the past. Are you going to address this, or insist that circumstances have not changed?

13k is barely noticeable. It's a drop in the bucket of the population of the North at large, and even for the North East.

It's <0.1% for all of the North, and about <0.5% for the North East. That's insignificant. "There's no support" is only wrong on a technical level: 13k is never going to change the political status for the North/North East, so there is, for all intents and purposes, no support.

I'd also like to join in the mocking of Northumbrian independence.

It's deeply unfortunate that this appears to be the attitude of most people here. I was hoping we could have a reasonable discussion about the merits of Northumbrian independence in light of the fact that mass support has now been demonstrated.

"Mass support", lol.

13k out of a population of 15 million/2.5 million is not mass support.

[The Free Joy State]

NSG won't be satisfied that there is existing support for Northumbrian/Northern independence until we win a referendum. Even then I doubt it.

Because the North is not one united concept. It has not unifying culture, no unifying identity, no real factor that unites the North as a whole.

Yorkshire does have its own culture, identity, and a unifying factor, as does Lancashire.

Which this is trying to squash by dividing Yorkshire (which as the Independent noted, Yorkshire people would be pissed off about; it also has its own independence party and members of that would likely thumb their noses at this idea) and absorbing Lancashire.

[Celritannia]

*COUGH*

[Esalia]

*COUGH*

Tbh, Yorkshire probably has a better shot at independence than Northumbria. Not a good shot, but a better one.

At least Yorkshire is a mostly-defined area that still exists, instead of Northumbria.

[Celritannia]

*COUGH*

Tbh, Yorkshire probably has a better shot at independence than Northumbria. Not a good shot, but a better one.

At least Yorkshire is a mostly-defined area that still exists, instead of Northumbria.

Agreed.
Although, even the independent article also agrees with federalism than independence:

Probably of greater benefit would be federalised devolution, a decades-long solidarity pact-style economic plan and, just possibly, a generation of talented northerners showing the desire and courage to eschew the capital, stay in their homelands and help build future opportunities here.

Not only that, but points our Proudfoot lives in the south. Quite hypocritical.

[Esalia]

Tbh, Yorkshire probably has a better shot at independence than Northumbria. Not a good shot, but a better one.

At least Yorkshire is a mostly-defined area that still exists, instead of Northumbria.

Agreed.
Although, even the independent article also agrees with federalism than independence:

Probably of greater benefit would be federalised devolution, a decades-long solidarity pact-style economic plan and, just possibly, a generation of talented northerners showing the desire and courage to eschew the capital, stay in their homelands and help build future opportunities here.

Not only that, but points our Proudfoot lives in the south. Quite hypocritical.

I'm all in favour of a more federalised UK, especially if it helps to keep it from falling apart.

[The Free Joy State]

Tbh, Yorkshire probably has a better shot at independence than Northumbria. Not a good shot, but a better one.

At least Yorkshire is a mostly-defined area that still exists, instead of Northumbria.

Agreed.
Although, even the independent article also agrees with federalism than independence:

Probably of greater benefit would be federalised devolution, a decades-long solidarity pact-style economic plan and, just possibly, a generation of talented northerners showing the desire and courage to eschew the capital, stay in their homelands and help build future opportunities here.

Not only that, but points our Proudfoot lives in the south. Quite hypocritical.

Kind of like people calling for Brexit when they have EU citizenship -- any changes won't effect him: "I so think you should go and do this amazing thing." [Then why won't you join us?] "Erm... I don't want good things for myself. Yes. Yes, that's it."

Devolution, of the current, actual areas (rather than some imagined amalgamation) would actually make some sense. Giving the Northern mayors some powers over their spending.

Splitting up defined borders (and putting Sheffield in the South -- I've known people from Sheffield: proud Northerners; they'd be furious) and pushing for an economically damaging independence, however, makes no sense.

[Celritannia]

Agreed.
Although, even the independent article also agrees with federalism than independence:



Not only that, but points our Proudfoot lives in the south. Quite hypocritical.

Kind of like people calling for Brexit with EU citizenship -- any changes won't effect him: "I so think you should go and do this amazing thing." [Then why won't you join us?] "Erm... I don't want good things for myself. Yes. Yes, that's it."

Devolution, of the current, actual areas (rather than some imagined amalgamation) would actually make some sense. Giving the Northern mayors some powers over their spending.

Splitting up defined borders (and putting Sheffield in the South -- I've known people from Sheffield; proud Northerners, they'd be furious) and pushing for an economically damaging independence, however, makes no sense.

Agreed.

Each region already has distinct borders.

[Esalia]

Kind of like people calling for Brexit with EU citizenship -- any changes won't effect him: "I so think you should go and do this amazing thing." [Then why won't you join us?] "Erm... I don't want good things for myself. Yes. Yes, that's it."

Devolution, of the current, actual areas (rather than some imagined amalgamation) would actually make some sense. Giving the Northern mayors some powers over their spending.

Splitting up defined borders (and putting Sheffield in the South -- I've known people from Sheffield; proud Northerners, they'd be furious) and pushing for an economically damaging independence, however, makes no sense.

Agreed.

Each region already has distinct borders.

The issue of a federalised Britain aside, that Northumbria on that map is generally what I think of when I hear Northumbria. The North East (and the northern half of the North West), not the entirety of the North.

So when I hear "Northumbrian independence" being used to mean all of the North, I have to wonder what people living in Yorkshire and the North West have to say about being lumped in with Northumbria.