Abortion Law Reform Passes in New Zealand

[Purple Rats]

I apologize if the question is already answered, as I did not read whole thread.

Just a question: if abortion=murder, then should women who had abortion have same punishment as 'regular murderers' ?
Second question- what about doctors who are making it happen? Do they also deserve to be punished?

[Grenartia]

Personhood begins when the first breath is taken.

And when is that?

Immediately after birth, when the baby's ass is slapped by the doctor.

[Nakena]

And when is that?

Immediately after birth, when the baby's ass is slapped by the doctor.

I somewhat dispute that;

Growth of the human organism is an sequential thing. So instead of having an one/off point its an ongoing process. By the time of birth, the human organism is (ideally, since this isnt always the case) already sufficiently developed to be alive on its own.

Only in this interpretation, it would be sensible to follow your definition of personhood. (Direct dependency)

[New Bremerton]

Except it isn't.

Yes it is. Killing an innocent person is murder. Personhood starts when the sperm meets the egg and the zygot starts to form as an independent entity

A zygote, whether human or not, is not a person in any real sense. It is neither capable of sapience or sentience because it lacks a central nervous system. It isn't murder to pick flowers, which undeveloped zygotes don't even amount to.

[New Bremerton]

I am getting kinda sick of this thread going back and forth between "life begins at conception" and "life begins at birth!" followed by a literal pantomime of "oh yes it is!" and "oh no it isnt!" without any evidence or additional or useful material being used in the process.

If you asked me, I'd say life dosen't start at any particular moment but rather develops during pregnancy, kinda like a loading bar that lasts 9 months, and during that period in between the fetus is neither fully dead or alive, but becomes more alive as the pregnancy goes on. At least that's what most of the science says.

Personally, I think that abortion should be legal on demand until the fetus develops a neural net, usually around 20 weeks, then it should be allowed under extreme circumstances. I think that's a fair position to hold, and would probably be classed as pro-choice in most countries excluding the US and Canada.

My position exactly. I have reservations about late-term or third-trimester abortions, and I consider myself pro-choice.

[Lamoni]

Yes.

However you defended this religion and belief system.

Sorry, was there an actual point you were trying to make here? Or are you just dredging up posts from entirely unrelated threads just to hurl your own faeces around?

*** Warning for Flamebait ***
You've certainly been here long enough to know better, Vass.

Yes.

However you defended this religion and belief system.

What possible reason would you have to quote yourself from another thread?

Like Vassenor said, you're just throwing your own shit now.

*** Warning for Flaming ***
Those with moderation records should not be throwing stones. You're close to a ban as it is, Nobel Hobos 2. Knock it off.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Sorry, was there an actual point you were trying to make here? Or are you just dredging up posts from entirely unrelated threads just to hurl your own faeces around?

*** Warning for Flamebait ***
You've certainly been here long enough to know better, Vass.

What possible reason would you have to quote yourself from another thread?

Like Vassenor said, you're just throwing your own shit now.

*** Warning for Flaming ***
Those with moderation records should not be throwing stones. You're close to a ban as it is, Nobel Hobos 2. Knock it off.

"Your own shit" refers to the post and not the poster. But whatever, ban me and do me a favor.

[Grenartia]

Immediately after birth, when the baby's ass is slapped by the doctor.

I somewhat dispute that;

Growth of the human organism is an sequential thing. So instead of having an one/off point its an ongoing process. By the time of birth, the human organism is (ideally, since this isnt always the case) already sufficiently developed to be alive on its own.

Only in this interpretation, it would be sensible to follow your definition of personhood. (Direct dependency)

I mean, going by the underlined, personhood wouldn't exist until at least a decade after birth.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I somewhat dispute that;

Growth of the human organism is an sequential thing. So instead of having an one/off point its an ongoing process. By the time of birth, the human organism is (ideally, since this isnt always the case) already sufficiently developed to be alive on its own.

Only in this interpretation, it would be sensible to follow your definition of personhood. (Direct dependency)

I mean, going by the underlined, personhood wouldn't exist until at least a decade after birth.

That's precisely why birth is a ridiculous cutoff point. It's entirely arbitrary and has nothing to do with any qualitative change in the moral subject.

[Wheatonleks]

I mean, going by the underlined, personhood wouldn't exist until at least a decade after birth.

That's precisely why birth is a ridiculous cutoff point. It's entirely arbitrary and has nothing to do with any qualitative change in the moral subject.

Definitely, there’s gotta be some more trimesters where abortion is allowed, I know I’d probably be better off it were

[Grenartia]

I mean, going by the underlined, personhood wouldn't exist until at least a decade after birth.

That's precisely why birth is a ridiculous cutoff point. It's entirely arbitrary and has nothing to do with any qualitative change in the moral subject.

You must've missed the point where I specified first breath. That's not really arbitrary at all.

[United Muscovite Nations]

That's precisely why birth is a ridiculous cutoff point. It's entirely arbitrary and has nothing to do with any qualitative change in the moral subject.

You must've missed the point where I specified first breath. That's not really arbitrary at all.

It's completely arbitrary. There are no qualitative changes in the minute before and the minute after.

[Cedoria]

You must've missed the point where I specified first breath. That's not really arbitrary at all.

It's completely arbitrary. There are no qualitative changes in the minute before and the minute after.

Except that the minute before it's still squatting in someone else's body and the minute after it's not.

That may seem like a small distinction, but given the subject matter it's really not. It's largely the crux of the matter.

[United Muscovite Nations]

It's completely arbitrary. There are no qualitative changes in the minute before and the minute after.

Except that the minute before it's still squatting in someone else's body and the minute after it's not.

That may seem like a small distinction, but given the subject matter it's really not. It's largely the crux of the matter.

No it isn't the crux of the matter. If the fetus has all the qualities of a child, the parents have a moral obligation to care for their child.

[The New California Republic]

Except that the minute before it's still squatting in someone else's body and the minute after it's not.

That may seem like a small distinction, but given the subject matter it's really not. It's largely the crux of the matter.

No it isn't the crux of the matter. If the fetus has all the qualities of a child, the parents have a moral obligation to care for their child.

It is the crux of the matter actually.

[United Muscovite Nations]

No it isn't the crux of the matter. If the fetus has all the qualities of a child, the parents have a moral obligation to care for their child.

It is the crux of the matter actually.

Inside the mother's body or no, a mother has no right to murder her child.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Also I think it's rather telling that liberals criticize pro-life people for being too extreme in one way (being against abortion when it's just cells multiplying), which is reasonable, but then go so far in the other direction that we literally see people supporting abortion outside the womb.

[Albrenia]

Both the 'the moment of conception' and 'first breath' seem to have problems from where I'm sitting.

Abortion outside of the womb? How would that even work? Like... just killing the baby in its crib or something?

[United Muscovite Nations]

Both the 'the moment of conception' and 'first breath' seem to have problems from where I'm sitting.

Yes. Even though religiously I'd say I believe in the moment of conception, from a purely secular standpoint, I'd say the point at which the brain is largely developed is the most reasonable cutoff.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Both the 'the moment of conception' and 'first breath' seem to have problems from where I'm sitting.

Abortion outside of the womb? How would that even work? Like... just killing the baby in its crib or something?

Given that the baby takes its first breath after being born, Idk how else to interpret saying that abortion is fine up until the point of the first breath.

[The New California Republic]

It is the crux of the matter actually.

Inside the mother's body or no, a mother has no right to murder her child.

Neither murder nor a child.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Inside the mother's body or no, a mother has no right to murder her child.

Neither murder nor a child.

What changes in the minutes before and after birth that is a qualitative change?

[The New California Republic]

Also I think it's rather telling that liberals criticize pro-life people for being too extreme in one way (being against abortion when it's just cells multiplying), which is reasonable, but then go so far in the other direction that we literally see people supporting abortion outside the womb.

Who said that? Who?

[The New California Republic]

Neither murder nor a child.

What changes in the minutes before and after birth that is a qualitative change?

We have already told you. Come on UMN.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Also I think it's rather telling that liberals criticize pro-life people for being too extreme in one way (being against abortion when it's just cells multiplying), which is reasonable, but then go so far in the other direction that we literally see people supporting abortion outside the womb.

Who said that? Who?

Gren said it's not a person until it takes its first breath, which takes place after birth. That implies there is a window after birth in which the fetus may be killed with no moral repercussions.