Should the US (with UN aid) invade China?

[Hurtful Thoughts]

Nah we just insure Hong Kong gains indipendince and arm Militias In China and make sure the Commies fall

Have Elon Musk sell them flamethrower-roombas?

[Greater Cesnica]

Nah we just insure Hong Kong gains indipendince and arm Militias In China and make sure the Commies fall

Have Elon Musk sell them flamethrower-roombas?

We should have General McArthur'd them while we had the chance. Now it's gonna have to be a delicate power balance.

[Byzconia]

Who is grossly over simplifying now? Saying we should use similar strategy does not mean doing the exact same thing.

Ah, yes, saying we should "do Containment like with the Soviets," doesn't actually mean we should do that but rather that, "We should do something similar to Containment." Yep, ya got me there.

That is not how history works,

No shit. Also, this is funny coming from the guy who literally just insisted that a war that ended almost 30-years ago is somehow still going on, but I'm sure further down you're going to insist that that's totally not what you meant and I'm just misrepresenting you.

and yes it would be a strategy of general containment in terms of trying to keep them from gaining more influence and power new places, rather than trying to invade them. That is the whole point.

And, again, how do you expect to accomplish this? What specific strategies would you suggest? China's influence is mostly economic, are we supposed to enter bidding wars with the Chinese over influence in various countries? That'd get expensive real fast.

And are you ready saying the Soviets would not have taken over more had we let them do whatever they want?

Maybe, maybe not. That counterfactual is too big to be answered with anything less than a published and researched academic essay. Political scientists don't deal in baseless speculations.

That Afghanistan played no role? Our economic pressure and propaganda played no role?

Afghanistan absolutely played a role, but again, what does that have to do with Containment? Like I said, yes, the US (and China, for that matter) offered aid to the Mujahadeen (a brilliant decision, in hindsight /s), but it's hard to argue that that was the reason they lasted so long. Even without us it's unlikely the Soviets would've won that war. There's a reason Afghanistan is nicknamed, "The Graveyard of Empires."

As for our economic pressure and propaganda: What economic pressure are you referring to specifically? And what do you mean by "propaganda"? Do you mean us going around telling everyone the Soviets are bad? Because I'm pretty sure they could've figured that one out on their own. Our propaganda efforts certainly had little effect inside the Soviet Union itself, since media was heavily censored and anything that would've reached the populace would've been small-scale.

Anyways while the US did not solely cause it, we should not have let them do whatever they want.

Didn't suggest we should've.

We have to oppose them,

Sure, but there are better ways to do that than discredited foreign policy strategies.

or they will control our economy and political system.
Which is ultimately what they want.

Okay, wait, what the fuck? Now you're just getting paranoid and conspiratorial. No, the Chinese do not "want to control our economy and political system." Holy shit, that's insane. They want to take the US's place as the world hegemon, they don't want to take us over. Where are you getting your information from, Fox News? The John Birch Society?

In do not blame them really. That is not the point. It is as much the oppose us, and we oppose them. That we both want mutually exclusive things that cannot coexist. It is a competition and we should want to win. And a friendly competition can only happen if your competitor plays by the rules. The PRC will not.

This kind of thinking is paranoid, fanatical, and conspiratorial (and frankly, reads like something a social Darwinist would write on their blog). You're going out of your way to paint the PRC's government as a bunch of evil tyrants bent on taking over the world. Xi Jinping isn't Hitler and China isn't Nazi Germany. Knock it off.

Now yes we might want to avoid WWIII. We never had a WWIII with the Soviets. Avoiding WWIII does not require we be non adversarial. Again stopping them SHORT of outright war would be the whole point! Sure we can negotiate on certain individual things, but overall we will still be adversarial, like with the Soviets.

Okay?

See there are different levels of being adversarial. There is a middle ground between dying they are and adversary and outright war which is the whole point!

No shit.

Yes the Soviet Union fell, replaced by the PRC, but that does not mean it is over. Sure you can say this is a New Cold War, but ultimately the PRC immediately moved in to fill the gap left by the USSR.

If you honestly believe this, then you have absolutely zero understanding of what the Cold War was or why it was fought.

And your naive and idealistic views will not work in practice.

What "naive and idealistic views"?! Saying that the PRC isn't literally the Devil? Jesus fuck you're starting to get on my nerves. All you've done this whole time is throw around wild, baseless accusations not backed up by any academic evidence--and ignoring everytime I ask you for any--and then have the nerve to call me "naive and idealistic" for trying to approach foreign policy from the pragmatic perspective of, "Hey, maybe it would benefit the world if the largest power's cooperated instead of trying to kill each other." You claim, "Pragmatism is my ideology," and yet are very obviously not driven by pragmatism if any of the drivel you've posted here is anything to go by.

We will not magically unite around being nice and good or whatever. It will not happen.

"We can't 'magically' do the thing that every other developed country manages to do just fine." - America in a nutshell.

We know that an outside adversary unites us, and we fall into internal conflicts and complacency when we do not have one.

Literally what fascism teaches.

We were doing better on many things when we all recognized we had one.
And we will do better when we recognize it again.

Or, again, just recognize that we all live in the same fucking country. If the US needs an enemy to be united, then the US has no reason to be a country in the first place.

BTW the Stalinists and Fascists focused on internal enemies as much as foreign ones.

Yes, by claiming that those internal enemies were actually secret agents of the foreign enemies. Hatred of the latter justified persecution of the former.

Again you can obviously can address an external threat without resorting to those extremes.

Again, the PATRIOT Act very clearly demonstrates that the US government is willing to strip away its citizens liberties in the name of "security." There is absolutely no reason to think they won't go further if given the opportunity. The nature of the state is to expand its power at any cost, giving it a reason to do so is utterly insane.

Pretending the PRC is not a threat to us will not make the threat go away.

Again, this is literally insane. The PRC is a threat to the US as global hegemon, they are not a threat to our existence.

[Nyeznakomka]

Nope perhaps US being invaded just for fun because Americans havent experienced an war on their land since their Independence. That aside, Asian Dragon is the Ally with The Bear, also Kimmy loves China too so i dont think they will just watch the show, they might join and end humanity once and for all.

[Byzconia]

Source?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.co ... index.html

Obviously the PRC has a much larger military, but it does not yet have the logistical and amphibious assets needed. Having the troops is one thing. Actually getting them there, landing and supplying them is a very different thing.

Thank you for finally providing a source. However:

"...there is 'no indication China is significantly expanding its landing ship force,' the report said." In other words, not only do they not have the ability, they don't have the desire to give themselves said ability.

Also:

"Collin Koh Swee Lean, research fellow at the S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies' Maritime Security Program in Singapore, said there would also be 'immense political consequences' from taking over Taiwan, in the event of a successful China invasion.

"'It will likely mean that China will be seen as the bad guy in the neighborhood, who uses force,' he said. 'It will alienate some regional partners and the good will which China has been trying to build over the years will evaporate. And it will set China on a collision course with the US.'"

Aka what I've been saying this whole time.

[Christian Confederation]

Have Elon Musk sell them flamethrower-roombas?

We should have General McArthur'd them while we had the chance. Now it's gonna have to be a delicate power balance.

We just need to annex the Angelo sphere so we can fight China

[-Ocelot-]

China needs democracy and stability. Not a war it can actually win.

The problem with China has always been its communist government, which has 1 million people of an ethnic minority in camps and has killed many millions of its own people during the previous century. Attacking China isn't going to get rid of the communist government, if anything it will give the Chinese an extra reason to cling to totalitarianism even harder.

The best kind of initiative against China would be to help its citizens get rid of these statist leeches and replace them with a government and a system that is based on the democratic process. I don't believe that this kind of help can come in the form of an invasion.

[Kyria]

We should have General McArthur'd them while we had the chance. Now it's gonna have to be a delicate power balance.

We just need to annex the Angelo sphere so we can fight China

How about neither? If you’re actually serious, absolutely not. I’d sooner fight for my freedom from America than join them to fight China. You’d be making more enemies than friends IMO.

[Aureumterra]

There are better ways to topple the commies in China. The US could assemble a bloc consisting of Japan, SoKo, India, Indonesia, Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, and the Philippines to embargo China. Try to steal countries that are on the fence with China, such as Mongolia, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka, and Nepal. China will be left with 1 major ally (Pakistan) and a few smaller allies.

Then, enforce a complete embargo on China. India’s manufacturing is skyrocketing, in a few years, India and Vietnam can almost replace China’s entire output

[Grenartia]

Nope perhaps US being invaded just for fun because Americans havent experienced an war on their land since their Independence.

That's actually incorrect. The War of 1812 was primarily fought on American soil (when it wasn't being fought on the high seas), the Mexican-American War (which was shockingly a defensive war), the Civil War (or, as I like to call it, the War of Southron Aggression), and, most recently, WW2, where not only was Pearl Harbor attacked, but several of the Aleutian islands were occupied by Japanese forces, and Japanese submarines also attacked a few locations on the West Coast, and bombed locations as far east as Nebraska (granted, the balloon bombs were mostly nuisance, but still, they count as attacks on American soil nonetheless). I could have included 9/11, but since that was carried out by non-state actors, I decided against.

[Hakons]

No, that would be an extremely disastrous, if not nuclear, war.

One has to recognize, however, that the US and China are in an unavoidable geopolitical conflict. Their two systems of government and culture are too different, and they both desire to project their power far beyond their borders. The US wants to maintain its stature as the leading great power, while China wants to rise and take that position. Direct warfare would be disastrous, but proxy conflicts of all kinds are being waged and will continue to be.

[Gamer Iran]

I'd first like to say that you should never get involved in a land war in Asia.

That being said, go ahead and invade if you want.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

I'd first like to say that you should never get involved in a land war in Asia.

That being said, go ahead and invade if you want.

Who said anything about a land-war?

America has a speeeeesh fooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrce

*orbital-drop shock-roombas intensify

[Aureumterra]

I'd first like to say that you should never get involved in a land war in Asia.

That being said, go ahead and invade if you want.

Who said anything about a land-war?

America has a speeeeesh fooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrce

*orbital-drop shock-roombas intensify

Thing about modern China as compared to old China is that population and economic activity is centered in a few massive cities and towns, supplied by food from the rural areas. If urban and rural are cut off from each other, China will collapse in no time

[Bear Stearns]

Nuclear wars are bad, so no.

But what about trade wars

If the US government apparatus was fully behind Trump, we'd kick China's ass in a trade war and bring about a new Century of Humiliation for them. But alas, he is fighting with both hands tied behind his back.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

Who said anything about a land-war?

America has a speeeeesh fooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrce

*orbital-drop shock-roombas intensify

Thing about modern China as compared to old China is that population and economic activity is centered in a few massive cities and towns, supplied by food from the rural areas. If urban and rural are cut off from each other, China will collapse in no time

Rice blast boomba.

[Neanderthaland]

Can't we just force them to buy a bunch of drugs instead?

Worked okay the last time.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

Can't we just force them to buy a bunch of drugs instead?

Worked okay the last time.

Kinda backfired when we had a cannabalistic Imperial Japanese Army stoked on meth to contend with in New Guinea.

Hearing some of the POWs get eaten alive is pretty good motivation not to get captured.

[Neanderthaland]

Can't we just force them to buy a bunch of drugs instead?

Worked okay the last time.

Kinda backfired when we had a cannabalistic Japanese Army stoked on meth to contend with in New Guinea.

They lost that war, and we got Hentai.

I consider this an absolute win.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

Kinda backfired when we had a cannabalistic Japanese Army stoked on meth to contend with in New Guinea.

They lost that war, and we got Hentai.

I consider this an absolute win.

Didn't that involve dropping some nuclear devices on some heads?

[Neanderthaland]

They lost that war, and we got Hentai.

I consider this an absolute win.

Didn't that involve dropping some nuclear devices on some heads?

It involved dropping a lot of devises on some heads. A shame that only the nuclear ones are remembered, when those torches were arguably more terrible.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

Didn't that involve dropping some nuclear devices on some heads?

It involved dropping a lot of devises on some heads. A shame that only the nuclear ones are remembered, when those torches were arguably more terrible.

Fun trivia is we tried doing the same thing using the very same torches to light the forests of Vietnam on fire.


It didn't work. Agent Orange was more effective and cheaper.

[Neanderthaland]

It involved dropping a lot of devises on some heads. A shame that only the nuclear ones are remembered, when those torches were arguably more terrible.

Fun trivia is we tried doing the same thing using the very same torches to light the forests of Vietnam on fire.


It didn't work. Agent Orange was more effective and cheaper.

Pretty sure America never used M69s in Vietnam.

[New haven america]

Yes, definitely.

[Bear Stearns]

It involved dropping a lot of devises on some heads. A shame that only the nuclear ones are remembered, when those torches were arguably more terrible.

Fun trivia is we tried doing the same thing using the very same torches to light the forests of Vietnam on fire.


It didn't work. Agent Orange was more effective and cheaper.

It doesn't matter what your opinion is of Agent Orange. The point is that when our boys need it - when America needs it - it works. And Dow Chemical makes it. And that's the bottom line here.