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Border Patrol Is Detaining Migrants in ‘a Human Dog Pound’

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Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
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Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:45 am

Novus America wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
And it's totally a coincidence that ICE is only targeting Hispanic illegal migrants. :roll:


Except, that is completely false. Non Hispanic illegal immigrants have been detained as well.

Targeting of other individuals does not mean hispanics are not a targeted group. They don’t have to be only target, just one of the targets. And ICE is targeting hispanics regardless of citizenship, as they have shown.

Paddy O Fernature wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Oh here we go again.


^ SD is right you know Vass.

Concentration camp is an accurate term. Just because it evokes that emotion does not mean it is less accurate. There is a reason it evokes those emotions.
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Paddy O Fernature
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Postby Paddy O Fernature » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:47 am

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:Concentration camp is an accurate term. Just because it evokes that emotion does not mean it is less accurate. There is a reason it evokes those emotions.


No, it really isn't. It's a blatant knee jerk term to stir up emotion over a subject that really doesn't need any additional bullshit thrown in an attempt to gain traction among those on the fence. Same as "Weapons of War" or "Fully Semi-Automatic" in the 2A debate, for example.

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Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
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Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:54 am

Paddy O Fernature wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:Concentration camp is an accurate term. Just because it evokes that emotion does not mean it is less accurate. There is a reason it evokes those emotions.


No, it really isn't. It's a blatant knee jerk term to stir up emotion over a subject that really doesn't need any additional bullshit thrown in an attempt to gain traction among those on the fence. Same as "Weapons of War" or "Fully Semi-Automatic" in the 2A debate, for example.

It’s not bullshit though. It literally is a ‘camp of concentration’, concentrating a particular group in a particular area.

Of course it evokes an emotional response. It’s a bad thing. Kids don’t get soap, for fuck’s sake. Can we not call something by its name because both it and its name are bad?
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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:56 am

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Paddy O Fernature wrote:
No, it really isn't. It's a blatant knee jerk term to stir up emotion over a subject that really doesn't need any additional bullshit thrown in an attempt to gain traction among those on the fence. Same as "Weapons of War" or "Fully Semi-Automatic" in the 2A debate, for example.

It’s not bullshit though. It literally is a ‘camp of concentration’, concentrating a particular group in a particular area.

Of course it evokes an emotional response. It’s a bad thing. Kids don’t get soap, for fuck’s sake. Can we not call something by its name because both it and its name are bad?


An Insane Clown Posse concert also concentrates particular people in a specific place. Are they now concentration camps?
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:57 am

Telconi wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:It’s not bullshit though. It literally is a ‘camp of concentration’, concentrating a particular group in a particular area.

Of course it evokes an emotional response. It’s a bad thing. Kids don’t get soap, for fuck’s sake. Can we not call something by its name because both it and its name are bad?


An Insane Clown Posse concert also concentrates particular people in a specific place. Are they now concentration camps?

The people at said concert are there of their own Free Will.
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Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
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Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:58 am

Telconi wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:It’s not bullshit though. It literally is a ‘camp of concentration’, concentrating a particular group in a particular area.

Of course it evokes an emotional response. It’s a bad thing. Kids don’t get soap, for fuck’s sake. Can we not call something by its name because both it and its name are bad?


An Insane Clown Posse concert also concentrates particular people in a specific place. Are they now concentration camps?

If you willingly don’t see the difference between people being dragged into vans and put in a camp against their will and a concert then you are so far down the bad faith arguments we might as well stop here.
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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:59 am

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Telconi wrote:
An Insane Clown Posse concert also concentrates particular people in a specific place. Are they now concentration camps?

If you willingly don’t see the difference between people being dragged into vans and put in a camp against their will and a concert then you are so far down the bad faith arguments we might as well stop here.


If you don't see the difference between detention pending legal processes for people and concentration camps, you're a lot further down that road than my mockery.
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Paddy O Fernature
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Postby Paddy O Fernature » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:03 am

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:It’s not bullshit though. It literally is a ‘camp of concentration’, concentrating a particular group in a particular area.


Common, that's a pretty broad definition and you know it.

By that standard, jails are concentration camps. So are FEMA shelters after an outbreak or disaster, Homeless camps in CA, and Schools just to name a few off the top of my head.
Last edited by Paddy O Fernature on Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:06 am

Paddy O Fernature wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:It’s not bullshit though. It literally is a ‘camp of concentration’, concentrating a particular group in a particular area.


Common, that's a pretty broad definition and you know it.

By that standard, jails are concentration camps. So are FEMA shelters after an outbreak or disaster, Homeless camps in CA, and Schools just to name a few off the top of my head.

a place where large numbers of people (such as prisoners of war, political prisoners, refugees, or the members of an ethnic or religious minority) are detained or confined under armed guard

Merriam-Webster.
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Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
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Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:07 am

Telconi wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:If you willingly don’t see the difference between people being dragged into vans and put in a camp against their will and a concert then you are so far down the bad faith arguments we might as well stop here.


If you don't see the difference between detention pending legal processes for people and concentration camps, you're a lot further down that road than my mockery.

For something to be a concentration camp it does not matter what will happen in time. These people have not been duly convicted of a crime.

I thought you would be the person to cheer the constitution on here.
Paddy O Fernature wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:It’s not bullshit though. It literally is a ‘camp of concentration’, concentrating a particular group in a particular area./quote]

Common, that's a pretty broad definition and you know it.

By that standard, jails are concentration camps. So are FEMA shelters after an outbreak or disaster, Homeless camps in CA, and Schools just to name a few off the top of my head.

That was not a definition, but anyway.

What is your definition?
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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:11 am

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Telconi wrote:
If you don't see the difference between detention pending legal processes for people and concentration camps, you're a lot further down that road than my mockery.

For something to be a concentration camp it does not matter what will happen in time. These people have not been duly convicted of a crime.

I thought you would be the person to cheer the constitution on here.
Paddy O Fernature wrote:

That was not a definition, but anyway.

What is your definition?


What part of the constitution prohibits pre-trial detention?

And if that's a concentration camp, why aren't you crying about every county jail that does the exact same thing?
Last edited by Telconi on Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Shaggtopia
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Postby Shaggtopia » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:31 am

Hire more Judges so the legal process can continue (as opposed to hiring more ICE Agents compounding the issue). Stop claiming seeking asylum is a crime (also destabilizing the regions these people are fleeing.)
Stop separating children from their care givers (then claiming they are criminal unaccompanied minors.) Stop rhetorically referring to migrants as "illegal", "animals" or justifying proposed solutions by claiming "it's what we do for zoos or cattle." Point to instances of this behavior and call the spade a spade by denouncing the person speaking as lacking basic empathy or an understanding of ethics and morality. Because that's exactly what supporters of this current state of affairs and those that remain indifferent to the willful generation of human suffering are enabling and the concepts their actions are eroding. Jesus Mary and Joseph this is why we had the Nirenberg Trials, this is why the Geneva Convention exists, and the Hague. Treat the people who's only justification is "just following orders" like the criminals they are as they have a duty to their conscious first and dereliction of that duty has been displayed in the pages of history as a catalyst for genocide and war.
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Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
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Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:39 am

Telconi wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:For something to be a concentration camp it does not matter what will happen in time. These people have not been duly convicted of a crime.

I thought you would be the person to cheer the constitution on here.
That was not a definition, but anyway.

What is your definition?


What part of the constitution prohibits pre-trial detention?

And if that's a concentration camp, why aren't you crying about every county jail that does the exact same thing?

If these camps supplied the same level of care as county jails, there would be less of a problem. People in jail get soap. Also, people in jail get quick access to the judicial system, so a judge can set bail or allow them to go free if they are not a threat. These people don’t get those rights.

The current conditions are in violation of the 5th, 6th, and 8th amendments.
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Paddy O Fernature
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Postby Paddy O Fernature » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:39 am

Shaggtopia wrote:Hire more Judges so the legal process can continue (as opposed to hiring more ICE Agents compounding the issue). Stop claiming seeking asylum is a crime (also destabilizing the regions these people are fleeing.)
Stop separating children from their care givers (then claiming they are criminal unaccompanied minors.) Stop rhetorically referring to migrants as "illegal", "animals" or justifying proposed solutions by claiming "it's what we do for zoos or cattle." Point to instances of this behavior and call the spade a spade by denouncing the person speaking as lacking basic empathy or an understanding of ethics and morality. Because that's exactly what supporters of this current state of affairs and those that remain indifferent to the willful generation of human suffering are enabling and the concepts their actions are eroding. Jesus Mary and Joseph this is why we had the Nirenberg Trials, this is why the Geneva Convention exists, and the Hague. Treat the people who's only justification is "just following orders" like the criminals they are as they have a duty to their conscious first and dereliction of that duty has been displayed in the pages of history as a catalyst for genocide and war.


Or...

People can stop illegally trying to enter the country and get in line like everyone else legally trying to enter is doing, and wait for congress to sort itself out and properly address the issue.

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Telconi wrote:
What part of the constitution prohibits pre-trial detention?

And if that's a concentration camp, why aren't you crying about every county jail that does the exact same thing?

If these camps supplied the same level of care as county jails, there would be less of a problem. People in jail get soap. Also, people in jail get quick access to the judicial system, so a judge can set bail or allow them to go free if they are not a threat. These people don’t get those rights.

The current conditions are in violation of the 5th, 6th, and 8th amendments.


It's almost like there suffering from lack of proper funding/staffing and are in the midst of a unparalleled surge in traffic and simply cannot handle the volume of people because of it.
Last edited by Paddy O Fernature on Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
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Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:40 am

Paddy O Fernature wrote:
Shaggtopia wrote:Hire more Judges so the legal process can continue (as opposed to hiring more ICE Agents compounding the issue). Stop claiming seeking asylum is a crime (also destabilizing the regions these people are fleeing.)
Stop separating children from their care givers (then claiming they are criminal unaccompanied minors.) Stop rhetorically referring to migrants as "illegal", "animals" or justifying proposed solutions by claiming "it's what we do for zoos or cattle." Point to instances of this behavior and call the spade a spade by denouncing the person speaking as lacking basic empathy or an understanding of ethics and morality. Because that's exactly what supporters of this current state of affairs and those that remain indifferent to the willful generation of human suffering are enabling and the concepts their actions are eroding. Jesus Mary and Joseph this is why we had the Nirenberg Trials, this is why the Geneva Convention exists, and the Hague. Treat the people who's only justification is "just following orders" like the criminals they are as they have a duty to their conscious first and dereliction of that duty has been displayed in the pages of history as a catalyst for genocide and war.


Or...

People can stop illegally trying to enter the country and get in line like everyone else legally trying to enter is doing, and wait for congress to sort itself out and properly address the issue.

Crossing the border and notifying the first point of contact is a legal way of seeking asylum under US law.
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Paddy O Fernature
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Postby Paddy O Fernature » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:44 am

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Paddy O Fernature wrote:
Or...

People can stop illegally trying to enter the country and get in line like everyone else legally trying to enter is doing, and wait for congress to sort itself out and properly address the issue.

Crossing the border and notifying the first point of contact is a legal way of seeking asylum under US law.


And they can then wait in a detention center (or Mexico) until they are either accepted or denied, and should be added to the already existing queue at the back.

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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:44 am

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Telconi wrote:
What part of the constitution prohibits pre-trial detention?

And if that's a concentration camp, why aren't you crying about every county jail that does the exact same thing?

If these camps supplied the same level of care as county jails, there would be less of a problem. People in jail get soap. Also, people in jail get quick access to the judicial system, so a judge can set bail or allow them to go free if they are not a threat. These people don’t get those rights.

The current conditions are in violation of the 5th, 6th, and 8th amendments.


Depends, people in jail often don't get soap. Average detention period was cited as thirty days, that's not an unusually long period compared to normal trial wait periods.

And, it was specifically stated that conditions don't define rather something is a concentration camp, if this is true then a county jail is just a nicer concentration camp at best. So, are slightly nicer concentration camps fine? Or have people been throwing fits about every county jail and police holding cell?
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PRO:
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:59 am

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Paddy O Fernature wrote:
Or...

People can stop illegally trying to enter the country and get in line like everyone else legally trying to enter is doing, and wait for congress to sort itself out and properly address the issue.

Crossing the border and notifying the first point of contact is a legal way of seeking asylum under US law.


It is. We should however change the law to say that the only way to legally seek asylum is at a legal port of entry as soon as possible after arriving. With rare exceptions (ship wreck, medical emergency) failure to do so should be illegal.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:02 am

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Telconi wrote:
What part of the constitution prohibits pre-trial detention?

And if that's a concentration camp, why aren't you crying about every county jail that does the exact same thing?

If these camps supplied the same level of care as county jails, there would be less of a problem. People in jail get soap. Also, people in jail get quick access to the judicial system, so a judge can set bail or allow them to go free if they are not a threat. These people don’t get those rights.

The current conditions are in violation of the 5th, 6th, and 8th amendments.


Fair enough. Absolutely they should get better care.

But the thing is a concentration camp with good conditions is still bad.

As the issue is conditions, not the reason for detention, concentration camp is still the wrong term.

A supper shitty county jail would not be a concentration camp.
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Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
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Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:02 am

Paddy O Fernature wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:Crossing the border and notifying the first point of contact is a legal way of seeking asylum under US law.


And they can then wait in a detention center (or Mexico) until they are either accepted or denied, and should be added to the already existing queue at the back.

But then your “they should not enter illegally” argument falls flat.

Novus America wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:Crossing the border and notifying the first point of contact is a legal way of seeking asylum under US law.


It is. We should however change the law to say that the only way to legally seek asylum is at a legal port of entry as soon as possible after arriving. With rare exceptions (ship wreck, medical emergency) failure to do so should be illegal.

Why?

Telconi wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:If these camps supplied the same level of care as county jails, there would be less of a problem. People in jail get soap. Also, people in jail get quick access to the judicial system, so a judge can set bail or allow them to go free if they are not a threat. These people don’t get those rights.

The current conditions are in violation of the 5th, 6th, and 8th amendments.


Depends, people in jail often don't get soap. Average detention period was cited as thirty days, that's not an unusually long period compared to normal trial wait periods.

And, it was specifically stated that conditions don't define rather something is a concentration camp, if this is true then a county jail is just a nicer concentration camp at best. So, are slightly nicer concentration camps fine? Or have people been throwing fits about every county jail and police holding cell?


That is unusually long to wait before first contact with a judge.

Jails are not camps, are they?
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Gormwood
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Postby Gormwood » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:07 am

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Telconi wrote:
An Insane Clown Posse concert also concentrates particular people in a specific place. Are they now concentration camps?

If you willingly don’t see the difference between people being dragged into vans and put in a camp against their will and a concert then you are so far down the bad faith arguments we might as well stop here.

Telconi has no faith beyond Guns, Guns, Guns and Obama Bad.
Last edited by Gormwood on Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:08 am

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Paddy O Fernature wrote:
And they can then wait in a detention center (or Mexico) until they are either accepted or denied, and should be added to the already existing queue at the back.

But then your “they should not enter illegally” argument falls flat.

Novus America wrote:
It is. We should however change the law to say that the only way to legally seek asylum is at a legal port of entry as soon as possible after arriving. With rare exceptions (ship wreck, medical emergency) failure to do so should be illegal.

Why?

Telconi wrote:
Depends, people in jail often don't get soap. Average detention period was cited as thirty days, that's not an unusually long period compared to normal trial wait periods.

And, it was specifically stated that conditions don't define rather something is a concentration camp, if this is true then a county jail is just a nicer concentration camp at best. So, are slightly nicer concentration camps fine? Or have people been throwing fits about every county jail and police holding cell?


That is unusually long to wait before first contact with a judge.

Jails are not camps, are they?


Is it?

Immigration detention facilities aren't camps either.
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Novus America
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Posts: 23738
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:16 am

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Paddy O Fernature wrote:
And they can then wait in a detention center (or Mexico) until they are either accepted or denied, and should be added to the already existing queue at the back.

But then your “they should not enter illegally” argument falls flat.

Novus America wrote:
It is. We should however change the law to say that the only way to legally seek asylum is at a legal port of entry as soon as possible after arriving. With rare exceptions (ship wreck, medical emergency) failure to do so should be illegal.

Why?

Telconi wrote:
Depends, people in jail often don't get soap. Average detention period was cited as thirty days, that's not an unusually long period compared to normal trial wait periods.

And, it was specifically stated that conditions don't define rather something is a concentration camp, if this is true then a county jail is just a nicer concentration camp at best. So, are slightly nicer concentration camps fine? Or have people been throwing fits about every county jail and police holding cell?


That is unusually long to wait before first contact with a judge.

Jails are not camps, are they?


Most detention centers are no camps either...
Why? Because it is the only way we can properly make sure we know who is coming in. It is the only way we can ensure adequate facilities.
And there is no excuse for the vast majority of asylum seekers to not do so (like I said we would offer exceptions for certain severe extenuating circumstances).

We should allow Asylum applications but it should be much more orderly than the chaotic mess we currently have.
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Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
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Posts: 17031
Founded: Feb 20, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:21 am

Telconi wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:But then your “they should not enter illegally” argument falls flat.


Why?



That is unusually long to wait before first contact with a judge.

Jails are not camps, are they?


Is it?

Immigration detention facilities aren't camps either.

48 hours, usually.

A large facility with a fence around it used for storing large amounts of people? A camp can be, and usually is, a facility. And are they immigration facilities now? You know that that means that they are not there to hold people suspected of a crime, right? If they are immigration facilities then this whole thing is legally even more out of whack.
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Telconi
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Posts: 24668
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:29 am

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Telconi wrote:
Is it?

Immigration detention facilities aren't camps either.

48 hours, usually.

A large facility with a fence around it used for storing large amounts of people? A camp can be, and usually is, a facility. And are they immigration facilities now? You know that that means that they are not there to hold people suspected of a crime, right? If they are immigration facilities then this whole thing is legally even more out of whack.


Literally zero trials ever have been concluded in 48 hours.

Well they hold immigrants, so yes, they are immigration facilities. More specifically they're detention centers for people pending deportation hearings.
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

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