Transgender Discussion Thread III: Vote in our poll!

[The New California Republic]

I thought you mentioned being biologically male in another thread? Wouldn't that affect the way that you feel either in terms of being comfortable with that state of affairs or having dysphoria? Maybe I misread what you said.

Nope. I have been assumed to be both male and female online. Neither affected me. I have had dreams where I m male female...or changing and had no issue whatsoever. I would be comfortable in any body so long as it worked.

Ah alright.

[Vassenor]

I seriously do not understand the logic behind bathroom bills any more. Like I can't think of a more surefire way to put men in womens' bathrooms and changing rooms.

[Thuzbekistan]

I seriously do not understand the logic behind bathroom bills any more. Like I can't think of a more surefire way to put men in womens' bathrooms and changing rooms.

They just annoy me because when I'm in the middle of Alabama and trying to use the restroom and the men's is being cleaned, the staff will very forcefully send you on your way when you ask to use the single toilet womens room. No other place have I had an issue. Men's toilet is broken? Use the women's. No big deal. Not in bathroom bill states tho. Annoying af

[Dumb Ideologies]

I'm getting confirmed into the feminine church of the trans cult, and will get to talk about our lord and savior, spironolactone and estriadol.

Hun, we believe in the HRTrinity
Estriadol, Progesterone, and Holy Spiro.

Get this sick heresy out of here. Progesterone is not coeternal or consubstantial with Our Mother Oestradiol.

[Wunderstrafanstalt]

There's literally no reason to keep genders in language system anymore. Join us the masterrace, who has erased genders from our language since like a century ago, and use "that female" instead of "she" if we want to refer to a female.

I think a neat little suffix could work. Like Ei/Em and then the suffix -(l)u for specifically male and -(l)a for specifically female. I dunno; just a random fusion of agglutination and romance languages that I spat out. Personally I’d rather we devote our pronoun points to having an inclusive we and an exclusive we, bringing back thou/thee, and maybe a dual form.

We used to have that on nouns (like german/french?), such as (if anglified) employee and employene, student and studentene, etc. They have perished in the void of forgetfulness for being impractical, and I think I remember them for being somewhat sexist.

[Internationalist Bastard]

I think one of the weirdest things for me is how I’m always ready to stop being openly trans in the face of problems
Like I wonder if this means I’m not really trans or if the deep depression I feel for not being accepted and thinking about going back in the closet is more proof than anything

I’m just reposting this because I really want opinions

[Page]

I think one of the weirdest things for me is how I’m always ready to stop being openly trans in the face of problems
Like I wonder if this means I’m not really trans or if the deep depression I feel for not being accepted and thinking about going back in the closet is more proof than anything

I’m just reposting this because I really want opinions

That sounds to me like survival instinct. You're aware that many people in this world are still hostile towards trans people and that you don't want to expose yourself to that hostility when you already have enough problems to deal with. I don't think that undermines your gender identity at all.

[Internationalist Bastard]

I’m just reposting this because I really want opinions

That sounds to me like survival instinct. You're aware that many people in this world are still hostile towards trans people and that you don't want to expose yourself to that hostility when you already have enough problems to deal with. I don't think that undermines your gender identity at all.

I guess
It just makes me feel weak and invalid

[Western Vale Confederacy]

That sounds to me like survival instinct. You're aware that many people in this world are still hostile towards trans people and that you don't want to expose yourself to that hostility when you already have enough problems to deal with. I don't think that undermines your gender identity at all.

I guess
It just makes me feel weak and invalid

Lying for the purposes of defending your own life is not invalid nor is it a weakness.

[Philjia]

That sounds to me like survival instinct. You're aware that many people in this world are still hostile towards trans people and that you don't want to expose yourself to that hostility when you already have enough problems to deal with. I don't think that undermines your gender identity at all.

I guess
It just makes me feel weak and invalid

You're just scared, and there's nothing wrong with being scared.

[Farburg]

Just because it only works for 99.9% of the species doesn’t mean it’s oppressive.

Most people are male or female, and a few either went through surgery to look like the other, or they are deformed.

Radical feminism holds that sex-gender system is the root of all women's oppression, even trans women, men, and non-binary people, and even cis women as well.

So what? It doesn't matter if trans people are 1%, 10%, or a small fraction. Helping people get better lives by transitioning and breaking down sources of oppression will free not only that group but a lot of people. Life is not a zero sum game, helping other people, no matter small or big, matters, as a lot forms of social oppression intersect and overlap with each other.

They say that equality feels like oppression when you are used to privilege. That needn't be true, trans rights are about uplifting a silenced and invisible group, not about dragging cis people into misery.

Though I suspect you might not want to listen, but if you do, I hope I can be of assistance in expanding your to accepting different people and perspectives.

Using the “social construct” argument nothing is real.

One thing anti-trans arguments are is that they are radically skeptical. Skepticism is healthy in moderation, but it's like eating coleslaw for every meal.

Transphobia at its root is a metaphysical argument against people.

And your phrase is expressing that and epistemology, you can doubt all you want, but you have to believe your teeth are real when you take the first bite in a sandwich or even that you exist at all. How else could you doubt and question yourself if you are not real.

I’m going to bed you sad strange little people.
You are almost are frustrating as religious people.

Are we #transcult now?

Radical feminism is and extremist ideology

[Valrifell]

Radical feminism holds that sex-gender system is the root of all women's oppression, even trans women, men, and non-binary people, and even cis women as well.

So what? It doesn't matter if trans people are 1%, 10%, or a small fraction. Helping people get better lives by transitioning and breaking down sources of oppression will free not only that group but a lot of people. Life is not a zero sum game, helping other people, no matter small or big, matters, as a lot forms of social oppression intersect and overlap with each other.

They say that equality feels like oppression when you are used to privilege. That needn't be true, trans rights are about uplifting a silenced and invisible group, not about dragging cis people into misery.

Though I suspect you might not want to listen, but if you do, I hope I can be of assistance in expanding your to accepting different people and perspectives.

One thing anti-trans arguments are is that they are radically skeptical. Skepticism is healthy in moderation, but it's like eating coleslaw for every meal.

Transphobia at its root is a metaphysical argument against people.

And your phrase is expressing that and epistemology, you can doubt all you want, but you have to believe your teeth are real when you take the first bite in a sandwich or even that you exist at all. How else could you doubt and question yourself if you are not real.

Are we #transcult now?

Radical feminism is and extremist ideology

"Radical" and "extreme" are, in fact, synonyms yes.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Radical feminism holds that sex-gender system is the root of all women's oppression, even trans women, men, and non-binary people, and even cis women as well.

So what? It doesn't matter if trans people are 1%, 10%, or a small fraction. Helping people get better lives by transitioning and breaking down sources of oppression will free not only that group but a lot of people. Life is not a zero sum game, helping other people, no matter small or big, matters, as a lot forms of social oppression intersect and overlap with each other.

They say that equality feels like oppression when you are used to privilege. That needn't be true, trans rights are about uplifting a silenced and invisible group, not about dragging cis people into misery.

Though I suspect you might not want to listen, but if you do, I hope I can be of assistance in expanding your to accepting different people and perspectives.

One thing anti-trans arguments are is that they are radically skeptical. Skepticism is healthy in moderation, but it's like eating coleslaw for every meal.

Transphobia at its root is a metaphysical argument against people.

And your phrase is expressing that and epistemology, you can doubt all you want, but you have to believe your teeth are real when you take the first bite in a sandwich or even that you exist at all. How else could you doubt and question yourself if you are not real.

Are we #transcult now?

Radical feminism is and extremist ideology

Radical feminism?

Yeah, miss me with that.

[Wiliama]

I'd argue that nothing is real, but that those things which are helpful are functionally real. Teeth are a social construct (sometimes including hair, dependent on how stringent you want to get) but that doesn't mean that you don't work under the assumption teeth exist, because the social construct that categorizes teeth is useful. Thus, a broken system is fixed, not because it's intrinsically wrong, but because it's harmful. Tho again, this is mostly from my opinion and personal experience- if you feel differently it would be interesting to see your view.

What even is reality, how do you know what is real? Empirical evidence and feeling are usually a good start. Like I said, radical doubt and too much skepticism just leaves things stuck metaphysically. I have reason to believe but there is a probable chance that I am in dream reality and dreams are my true reality. Even if life were a game, it'd be much more fun to recognize people and treat them in their comfort and respecting their perceptions of self.

Simply put, gender is fake but my gender is important to me.

also i'd say yes, we are become a trans cult now. PRAISE BE TO THE GREAT GOD-CHEMICALS ESTROGEN AND TESTOSTERONE!

Communion, but you block your testosterone and raise your estrogen, or inject testosterone.

Well your “gender” is small potatoes to me.

[Gremand]

What even is reality, how do you know what is real? Empirical evidence and feeling are usually a good start. Like I said, radical doubt and too much skepticism just leaves things stuck metaphysically. I have reason to believe but there is a probable chance that I am in dream reality and dreams are my true reality. Even if life were a game, it'd be much more fun to recognize people and treat them in their comfort and respecting their perceptions of self.

Simply put, gender is fake but my gender is important to me.

Communion, but you block your testosterone and raise your estrogen, or inject testosterone.

Well your “gender” is small potatoes to me.

Lets go off of this, shall we? Why do you feel attacked for people seeking recognition for something they believe? Is there some underlying reason, or a particular belief of yours? Why exactly do you disparage people for their gender, and is there any way that I could convince you to, perhaps, understand and leave other's beliefs alone, when they do nothing to harm you or cause offense. (That i know of, transitioning could somehow be some elder god's callmark or something. in which case, i want to be the pawn of an elder god)

[Wiliama]

Well your “gender” is small potatoes to me.

Lets go off of this, shall we? Why do you feel attacked for people seeking recognition for something they believe? Is there some underlying reason, or a particular belief of yours? Why exactly do you disparage people for their gender, and is there any way that I could convince you to, perhaps, understand and leave other's beliefs alone, when they do nothing to harm you or cause offense. (That i know of, transitioning could somehow be some elder god's callmark or something. in which case, i want to be the pawn of an elder god)

I’m just saying your “gender” identity seems pretty useless and pointless from my point of view so I’m not going to waste time humoring it.

[Ifreann]

Lets go off of this, shall we? Why do you feel attacked for people seeking recognition for something they believe? Is there some underlying reason, or a particular belief of yours? Why exactly do you disparage people for their gender, and is there any way that I could convince you to, perhaps, understand and leave other's beliefs alone, when they do nothing to harm you or cause offense. (That i know of, transitioning could somehow be some elder god's callmark or something. in which case, i want to be the pawn of an elder god)

I’m just saying your “gender” identity seems pretty useless and pointless from my point of view so I’m not going to waste time humoring it.

Such a waste of your time that you're here arguing about it.

[Grenartia]

Hey, just saw this on the side bar. I'm mtf, about a week on hormones. I can already feel my mental state just being better, so that's amazing. Can't wait for more to come!

Yay! Also, lucky!

Gender dysphoria is not a prerequisite to be trans, not being your assigned gender at birth is the definition. Dysphoria is a bug, not a feature. A lot of people forget that gender euphoria and that was a more motivating factor in discovering my gender than dysphoria, I thought I wasn't dysphoric enough, that was the cost of transmedicalism.

I do plan to do one aspect of medical transitioning, but that doesn't make me trans, being something other male makes me trans.

I say most of mine is social, I want to feminize my body a bit, but have no desire to pass as or be a binary gender. I like being transfeminine and non-binary and feel euphoria from my gender.

Non-Binary isn’t Transgender

Well, I'm definitely non-binary, and I'm definitely trans.

So, either I'm right, or you're wrong.

Identifying with a gender other than the one assigned at birth? Seems pretty trans to me.

No amount of hormones or surgery can turn you into made up gender.

That's right, because ALL genders are made up.

You exist, it’s just your either a man or woman who’s pretending to be neither.

As far as gender is concerned nope. I am neither a man nor a woman. It is always interesting to learn that complete strangers apparently know my own mind better than I do.

Indeed. Maybe they should step forward and demonstrate their psychic abilites to the scientific community.

My question is, and it's a sincere one, is what does feeling like a "man" or a "woman" feel like? Especially if you've only ever been one or the other sexually speaking.

I don't really feel anything as a "man", except hungry frequently.

That's something that causes confusion for a lot of cis people, and I understand how someone who hasn't felt a fundamental disconnect doesn't notice the presence of an identity. It's very hard to strictly identify what it is that makes one feel like a man, woman, bigender, etc. other than it being an unconscious feeling that you just have.

This. Its extremely hard to actually put into words, other than you just feel it.

Gender’s a social construct, anyway.

No it is not, and saying it is is unwittingly (or intentionally) providing a basis for transphobia.

Not really. Something being a social construct doesn't make it any less real or valid.

News photos of arrest for failure to comply with demands for sources reveal that Chelsea Manning has been transitioning stunningly

I stan this wholesome tweet, and wish all the best for Chelsea.

unless you think it would be okay to make a new race or ethnicity and identify as that.

Honest question. How do you think the races and ethnicities we currently have came about?

Binary gender is something that the western world imposed on everyone else.

No, gender based on the two sexes is something common in western languages
I just said that in Swahili the genders are animate and inanimate

People with penises can be animate and inanimate. People with vaginas can be animate and inanimate.

So which one is it? Are the Swahili genders based on the sexual binary, or the animate/inanimate dichotomy?

The German language has three genders, masculine, feminine, and neuter.

And, as I recall, the word for "little girl" has neuter gender.

Which is the most succinct way I can think of to point out that grammatical gender and psychological gender are two totally completely fucking different things.

I'm saying gender is just a linguistic term more important for grammar than identity and social structures

I've gotta hard disagree here. I'm no linguist (and I doubt you are), but I fail to see the grammatical importance of gender, EXCEPT as a way of accommodating identity and social structures.

Sure you can. Biology isn't really a binary, we can put names on any number of points on the spectrum that we feel like naming.

The German language has three genders, masculine, feminine, and neuter.

Spectrums are binary, each point is not it's own sex only a combination of the two existing ones. And people usually only fall in-between due to disorders and deformities. People mistakenly think that a man is someone who ''conforms'' to ''male roles'' and females are those who ''conform'' to ''female roles'' but really the two sexes always existed but the roles applied to them did not. A man in a dress is still a man, there is no such thing as acting like a man, a man is a man and he can act however he likes.

This is the stupidest argument in favor of binary gender that I've seen this week.

A spectrum is inherently non-binary (unless you'd like to argue that the visible light spectrum only consists of red and blue).

A binary ONLY exists if there are 2, and ONLY 2 categories to put something in.

Indeed they do, much to my annoyance, as they gender everything.

Honestly, I'm just going to start referring to everyone by sex instead of gender.
Sex is real and not based on anything else.

That is a nuclear take, and petty AF.

But before you go all Ben Sharpie on us, let me ask you. How will you know what sex someone is?

How do you know if they have a penis, or a vagina (or something else entirely)? I doubt you're just going to go up and ask them, that leads to getting the shit beat out of you. And, even then, how will you know their chromosomes reflect that? Its very possible to have a penis and XX chromosomes, or a vagina and XY chromosomes. Are you going to demand a karyotype every time you ask what their junk is like? And when they conflict, which one are you going to go with?

Sex isn't really a binary, and realistically you will never know another person's sex, probably not even your own.

I am a man, because I have XY chromosomes and I have a penis that makes sperm.
Thats sex

You cannot truly know your chromosomes unless you have a karyotype done.

Also, kid, I hate to break it to you, but you should be the LAST person to be commenting about biological sex if you honestly think the penis makes sperm. You obviously haven't even taken a basic high school biology class, much less passed one.

So is woman with XY chromosomes and a womb a man or a woman?

Neither, they are a transvestite

A transvestite is an archaic term for a crossdressing cisgender man. Not a woman, trans or cis.

Also, its impossible, by definition, for a cisgender man to have a womb.

Yet there are cisgender women with wombs and XY chromosomes.

Transvestite means "cross-dresser". Like, the "vest" bit in the middle is from the Latin for clothes.

---

This is just not what words means.

I guess I mean its a scale then, not a spectrum

You don't mean "scale", either, because a scale is a spectrum.

If gender is based on sex there are two genders, if gender is not based on sex there are no genders at all.

This makes no logical sense. Gender is an independent quality which is typically influenced by the biological pathway one takes as a foetus, which means there can be categories outside the typical system.

AFAIK, that hasn't been conclusively proven. There's still plenty of Nature v Nurture discussions regarding gender identity.

I think one of the weirdest things for me is how I’m always ready to stop being openly trans in the face of problems
Like I wonder if this means I’m not really trans or if the deep depression I feel for not being accepted and thinking about going back in the closet is more proof than anything

Just know, you are valid. Wanting to be safe doesn't mean you're any less of a woman.

The traditional sex-gender system is a clunky, outdate, oppressive system. You cannot always and accurately extrapolate one's gender and sexual orientation from one's sex, which here means a composite of physiological traits related to mammalian sexual reproduction, it's a construct that only directly contributes to sexism and transphobia, but it rode the coattails of racism and colonialism. Not all human societies constructed gender the same way.

What's your angle for upholding it? Do you not want to change your worldview? Being wrong is part of learning, and thus bettering yourself.

Even gender essentialism is a woke rebrand of it, some people try to look for something inward, when really gender is much more murky and complicated, and that's ok, gender only exists in a society. Do we live in a society? Yes. Only society can define it and redefine it, and who is society, you are, I am society, you are society, we are all society.

Just because it only works for 99.9% of the species doesn’t mean it’s oppressive.

No, but the extremely negative and harmful impacts it has on those of us it doesn't work for DOES mean its oppressive.

Well I should think systems which primarily serve to deal with trans people ought to be well-suited to the job. Maybe ensuring our systems are able to capably execute their duties is something of a controversial opinion, but I stand by it.

We need systems that primarily deal with a tiny minority of people with rare disorders at the expense of literally everyone else.

Nice strawman.

Believe it or not, but it is entirely possible to have a system that deals with everyone in a positive, non-oppressive way. And that is what we are fighting for.

By the categories we defined, yes, but those definitions did not exist before humans defined them.

Just because language is a social construct doesn't mean there are no objective ways to measure things.

Essentially this. However, some things cannot be objectively measured (I invite anyone who says otherwise to dispute relativity with their nearest physicist), and just because some things are social constructs does not make them any less real or impactful (as Contrapoints once noted, just because money is a social construct, doesn't make it any less of a significant impact on your life than gravity itself).

also i'd say yes, we are become a trans cult now. PRAISE BE TO THE GREAT GOD-CHEMICALS ESTROGEN AND TESTOSTERONE!

I've had a thought for a cocktail for a while now. I'm not sure yet what all would be in it, but just dump some estrogen and T in it, and you have a Genderfluid.

I’ll admit, removing all gender from the language sounds better than pumping it full with all of the new fake ones.

There's literally no reason to keep genders in language system anymore. Join us the masterrace, who has erased genders from our language since like a century ago, and use "that female" instead of "she" if we want to refer to a female.

That honestly sounds creepy AF. Like a Ferengi or something.

I'm getting confirmed into the feminine church of the trans cult, and will get to talk about our lord and savior, spironolactone and estriadol.

Hun, we believe in the HRTrinity
Estriadol, Progesterone, and Holy Spiro.

Fuck, that's great. And their prophet is Contrapoints.

I seriously do not understand the logic behind bathroom bills any more. Like I can't think of a more surefire way to put men in womens' bathrooms and changing rooms.

They have no logic. I thought we all already knew that.

What even is reality, how do you know what is real? Empirical evidence and feeling are usually a good start. Like I said, radical doubt and too much skepticism just leaves things stuck metaphysically. I have reason to believe but there is a probable chance that I am in dream reality and dreams are my true reality. Even if life were a game, it'd be much more fun to recognize people and treat them in their comfort and respecting their perceptions of self.

Simply put, gender is fake but my gender is important to me.

Communion, but you block your testosterone and raise your estrogen, or inject testosterone.

Well your “gender” is small potatoes to me.

Said the rando who has never posted here before, and has hardly ever posted at all. You have no room to talk about something being small potatoes. Glass houses and whatnot.

[Grenartia]

I’m just saying your “gender” identity seems pretty useless and pointless from my point of view so I’m not going to waste time humoring it.

Such a waste of your time that you're here arguing about it.

Bless this post.

[Gremand]

Lets go off of this, shall we? Why do you feel attacked for people seeking recognition for something they believe? Is there some underlying reason, or a particular belief of yours? Why exactly do you disparage people for their gender, and is there any way that I could convince you to, perhaps, understand and leave other's beliefs alone, when they do nothing to harm you or cause offense. (That i know of, transitioning could somehow be some elder god's callmark or something. in which case, i want to be the pawn of an elder god)

I’m just saying your “gender” identity seems pretty useless and pointless from my point of view so I’m not going to waste time humoring it.

Right, but consider this- you already do humor it when you don't know we're trans, so why do you decide to be confrontational about it when we talk about our identities and the complexity found within them? That's like me saying i think being a man is pointless and useless and refusing to use he, or coming into a religious gathering and saying "This is useless and pointless and therefor should be banned." How does using preferred pronouns hurt you at all? Why is that a bad thing, when it's simply a matter of courtesy and respect?

[Western Vale Confederacy]

If referring to somebody as their preferred gender makes them happier and friendlier, why should I be an asshole and deny them their request?

I might not 100% agree with the trans community, but being an abrasive douche for the sake of being one is just in poor taste.

[The New California Republic]

I’m just saying your “gender” identity seems pretty useless and pointless from my point of view so I’m not going to waste time humoring it.

Such a waste of your time that you're here arguing about it.

It's fucking awful, isn't it? He must assume that we can't read his other posts in the thread.

[Vassenor]

I’m just saying your “gender” identity seems pretty useless and pointless from my point of view so I’m not going to waste time humoring it.

Such a waste of your time that you're here arguing about it.

But if they don't virtue signal about it how will we know just how much they don't care?

[Proctopeo]

Tbf, though, it's unlikely they'd be in those circles, both due to their views and because those circles are quite simply few in number and small in size.
Are we talking neopronouns, specifically? Like, xer and zim and shit like that? Yeah, just use they.

And if they still insist I soil my mouth with their idiocracy?

Just... use they.
Almost nobody uses neopronouns anyway, and if they get upset that you're using the more conventional singular gender-neutral pronoun, they're probably not worth talking to thqh

[Auzkhia]

Radical feminism holds that sex-gender system is the root of all women's oppression, even trans women, men, and non-binary people, and even cis women as well.

So what? It doesn't matter if trans people are 1%, 10%, or a small fraction. Helping people get better lives by transitioning and breaking down sources of oppression will free not only that group but a lot of people. Life is not a zero sum game, helping other people, no matter small or big, matters, as a lot forms of social oppression intersect and overlap with each other.

They say that equality feels like oppression when you are used to privilege. That needn't be true, trans rights are about uplifting a silenced and invisible group, not about dragging cis people into misery.

Though I suspect you might not want to listen, but if you do, I hope I can be of assistance in expanding your to accepting different people and perspectives.

One thing anti-trans arguments are is that they are radically skeptical. Skepticism is healthy in moderation, but it's like eating coleslaw for every meal.

Transphobia at its root is a metaphysical argument against people.

And your phrase is expressing that and epistemology, you can doubt all you want, but you have to believe your teeth are real when you take the first bite in a sandwich or even that you exist at all. How else could you doubt and question yourself if you are not real.

Are we #transcult now?

Radical feminism is and extremist ideology

No shit. Radical is extreme. Radical feminism is "extreme" as it wants more than just legal and equal integration into society, like liberal feminism. It wants to change the culture.

So called radical ideologies and movements seek to transform and replace, rather than gradual change and reform, if you want to uphold the system, you will see any extreme or radical movement as a threat, and thus say it like it's a bad thing to be a radical.

Even though, I don't think something like trans rights are a radical idea, but in the society I live in, it is.

What even is reality, how do you know what is real? Empirical evidence and feeling are usually a good start. Like I said, radical doubt and too much skepticism just leaves things stuck metaphysically. I have reason to believe but there is a probable chance that I am in dream reality and dreams are my true reality. Even if life were a game, it'd be much more fun to recognize people and treat them in their comfort and respecting their perceptions of self.

Simply put, gender is fake but my gender is important to me.

Communion, but you block your testosterone and raise your estrogen, or inject testosterone.

Well your “gender” is small potatoes to me.

Yet here you are, a rando who somehow came to this thread and to put a dismissive comment. If I'm so insignificant, what brought you are here? Maybe there's something bigger that I am not seeing.