Russian seizure of Ukranian Warships

[Thermodolia]

News flash bud. The majority of the world and Ukraine recognize Crimea as part of Ukraine. I know this is hard for a Russian propaganda advocate like yourself to understand but that means Ukraine has a right to pass through.

Oh and your hypotheticals don’t work. This is more like if the US took over Vladivostok and claimed it was theirs and then took the Russian ships captive when they crossed the waters that Russia thought was hers

Russia de facto controls Crimea. If the UN decided to stop recognizing gravity - do you think that would work?

Sof doesn’t understand geopolitics take two. In order to be recognized as a nation the worlds nations must recognize you. Which is why the Turkish Republic of Cyprus isn’t a legitimate nation because it’s not recognized as such. Same thing here.

It has nothing to do with propaganda, and everything to do with local control.

Oh please you spout so much propaganda I sometimes think you work for the Kremlin

Russia's control is recognized my the extreme majority of Crimeans.

Press X for doubt

Russia de facto controls Crimea.

Russia de facto stole it

If the UN refused to recognize the US installed Iraqi Government, does that mean that it's open season on Americans in Iraq?

First off the UN doesn’t recognize nations and I never said it did. Second the nations of the world decided if you’re a nation or not. Third nowhere did I suggest that we should start killing Russians. You need to stop projecting my dude[/quote]

[Shofercia]

Any guesses as to how Shofercia will come down on this?

"The evil CIA agent Ukrainians tried to attack Russia but our brave defenders repelled their homo ships! We must seize half of Ukraine to defend ourselves. If you disagree with me, you are a leftist and you can't even meme."

I doubt that the CIA had anything to do with it, and I don't have any issues with most leftists. Also, judging by some of the memes I've seen leftists put up on NSG, they can clearly meme.

We should have offered Ukraine NATO membership back in 2014. Russia would have never have been stupid enough to take on a NATO member

Russia would've still taken Crimea, and then NATO would do what? Crimea was transferred to Ukraine by Khruschev, as part of a compromise to help him get elected; the transfer was actually improper. When the USSR fell apart, Crimeans wanted to be with Russia. In 2014, Crimeans got their chance. Russia reclaimed Crimea, without a single death. According to western polling agencies, the extreme majority of Crimeans supported Russia. And Europeans would never let Ukraine, (at least not Ukraine with Crimea,) become a part of NATO.

Tbh, it might in our best interest to let Russia have Ukraine and then pursue a detente.

Like do most Westerners really give a shit about Ukraine to the point where they want to start a war over it?

Yeah, let's give Ukraine to Russia. And Estonia. And Latvia. Oh and Belarus and Hungary, sure why not?

Contrary to propaganda, quite a few ethnic Russians in Estonia and Latvia prefer the EU. Taking them would be awkward. Taking Belarus and Hungary is even more hilarious. Why not just claim that Russia would take the US while you're at it?

Yeah, let's give Ukraine to Russia. And Estonia. And Latvia. Oh and Belarus and Hungary, sure why not?

Ukraine and Belarus? Sure. I'm not starting World War III over some dumb inter-Slavic struggle.

Estonia, Latvia, and Hungary are Western and NATO powers, so no. Don't engage in hyperbole.

Ukraine is a dysfunctional state. Attempting to defeat Belarus military is a bitch. Estonia and Latvia should be protected, like you said, but Hungary? How is that even... did Ocelot get hungry or something? How is Hungary even a part of this discussion?

Giving them Ukraine and Belarus gives them leverage over us? Those places are backward shitholes. I fail to see how that matters,

Wow. Openly pro-Kremlin shill and a racist. Did you know, that Ukraine got Constitution even before the US, "VV"?

Ah yes, the infamous Ukrainian Historic Tales where Heracles of Crimea defends Ukraine from Russia. Also:

[Washington Resistance Army]

We should have offered Ukraine NATO membership back in 2014. Russia would have never have been stupid enough to take on a NATO member

Russia would've still taken Crimea, and then NATO would do what?

Deploy into Ukraine and kill the little green men en masse because Putin was really rather quite clear they weren't Russian.

[Bombadil]

Personally I don't mind Crimea's control by Russia, it may well be illegal but I do think the majority of people living there identify with Russia. What I mind is the entire sibling spat between Russia and Ukraine that gets down to these petty levels of effectively blocking shipping, pointlessly sending navy ships over and then it's all a game of 'he said/she said'.

Ukraine should have free access through the Kerch Straits, it's not as if Ukraine is ever going to invade Russia so Russia should stop being petty dicks about it all. I've no real care for the leadership of the Ukraine either to be honest.

[Shofercia]

How could that have happened if the US has existed since 1789 while Ukraine has only existed since 1991?
(Image)

Constitution of Pylyp Orlyk

No Freedom of Religion. No Freedom of Movement. Promotion of Ethnic Cleansing. Constitution not really enacted due to losing the war. Yep, it was certainly a Ukrainian Document.

The event took place very close to Crimea. What were Ukrainian warships doing there? This wasn't in international waters, and not even in de facto Ukrainian waters. If Ukraine's army decided to enter Crimea, what do you think would happen to them?

Let's be honest, the whole bridge is antagonistic to the Ukraine, impeding and blocking Ukrainian shipping. I don't believe this claim of Crimean or Russian waters given the arch is the only way through.

Ukraine has two major ports on the Sea of Azov through which it exports steel and agricultural products. Ukraine and the US have alleged that the bridge is being used by Russia as part of a creeping hybrid blockade of Ukrainian ports in the Azov Sea, and that Russian inspections of ships have risen sharply since the bridge opened in May 2018, some being forced to wait for three days before being allowed through. The main span of the bridge is 33 to 35 metres (108 to 115 ft) above sea level; many ships are too tall to pass safely under the bridge. The bulk carrier Copan (deadweight tonnage 17,777 tons) solved this problem by cutting off the top of her mast. On 26 October 2018 The Globe and Mail reported that the bridge had reduced Ukrainian shipping from its Sea of Azov ports by about 25%

The point of the bridge was to connect Crimea to Taman. Such an idea is not new in Russia, and was actually planned centuries ago. If the Russians wanted to simply blockade the straights, Russia could've done that with a few warships - no bridge needed. So no, the bridge isn't the to hurt Ukraine. It's there to help Crimea. Russia adopted a zero tolerance policy on Crimea, and so when Ukraine moved in with warships, without warnings, (the Russians are saying that they weren't informed,) that's what happens. If it was a civilian ship, that applied for clearance a few days in advance, and wasn't allowed to pass - that'd be a different story.

[Shofercia]

Russia would've still taken Crimea, and then NATO would do what?

Deploy into Ukraine and kill the little green men en masse because Putin was really rather quite clear they weren't Russian.

The locals are massively on Russia's side. Any foreign deployment is going to be destroyed very quickly.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Deploy into Ukraine and kill the little green men en masse because Putin was really rather quite clear they weren't Russian.

The locals are massively on Russia's side. Any foreign deployment is going to be destroyed very quickly.

Say it with me now: T O T A L W A R

[Thermodolia]

Deploy into Ukraine and kill the little green men en masse because Putin was really rather quite clear they weren't Russian.

The locals are massively on Russia's side. Any foreign deployment is going to be destroyed very quickly.

You seem to forget that the US has a habit of deploying to places where the locals don’t like them

[Bombadil]

Constitution of Pylyp Orlyk

No Freedom of Religion. No Freedom of Movement. Promotion of Ethnic Cleansing. Constitution not really enacted due to losing the war. Yep, it was certainly a Ukrainian Document.

Let's be honest, the whole bridge is antagonistic to the Ukraine, impeding and blocking Ukrainian shipping. I don't believe this claim of Crimean or Russian waters given the arch is the only way through.

Ukraine has two major ports on the Sea of Azov through which it exports steel and agricultural products. Ukraine and the US have alleged that the bridge is being used by Russia as part of a creeping hybrid blockade of Ukrainian ports in the Azov Sea, and that Russian inspections of ships have risen sharply since the bridge opened in May 2018, some being forced to wait for three days before being allowed through. The main span of the bridge is 33 to 35 metres (108 to 115 ft) above sea level; many ships are too tall to pass safely under the bridge. The bulk carrier Copan (deadweight tonnage 17,777 tons) solved this problem by cutting off the top of her mast. On 26 October 2018 The Globe and Mail reported that the bridge had reduced Ukrainian shipping from its Sea of Azov ports by about 25%

The point of the bridge was to connect Crimea to Taman. Such an idea is not new in Russia, and was actually planned centuries ago. If the Russians wanted to simply blockade the straights, Russia could've done that with a few warships - no bridge needed. So no, the bridge isn't the to hurt Ukraine. It's there to help Crimea. Russia adopted a zero tolerance policy on Crimea, and so when Ukraine moved in with warships, without warnings, (the Russians are saying that they weren't informed,) that's what happens. If it was a civilian ship, that applied for clearance a few days in advance, and wasn't allowed to pass - that'd be a different story.

I know what the point of it was meant to be, the fact is it's being used to harass the Ukrainians who shouldn't really have to inform with civilian ships - I can accept informing over any military ship but civilian ships should be able to pass through without hassle or delay.

They had a cargo ship blocking the arch, it's just being petty and antagonistic, it's like constantly pinching your little brother and then crying foul when they try to punch you.

The whole thing is just petty, and both leaderships are merely using it for nationalist purposes.

[Shofercia]

Russia de facto controls Crimea. If the UN decided to stop recognizing gravity - do you think that would work?

Sof doesn’t understand geopolitics take two. In order to be recognized as a nation the worlds nations must recognize you. Which is why the Turkish Republic of Cyprus isn’t a legitimate nation because it’s not recognized as such. Same thing here.

Why don't you try entering the Turkish Republic of Cyprus with a Greek Flag and see what happens. I understand International Law, but I also grasp the difference between De Jure and De Facto, and on the ground, De Facto rules.

It has nothing to do with propaganda, and everything to do with local control.

Oh please you spout so much propaganda I sometimes think you work for the Kremlin

Waaa, mah opponent is saying things I disagree with, waaa!

Crimea River!

Russia's control is recognized my the extreme majority of Crimeans.

Press X for doubt

Considering that it took me all of five seconds to find on Google, I think you're just lazy:



https://www.bbg.gov/wp-content/media/20 ... e-deck.pdf

Slides 27 & 30

So Thermodolia, is there where you claim that Putin took over Gallup and Pew?

Russia de facto controls Crimea.

Russia de facto stole it

Not according to the locals. Since when are you a hater of Direct Democracy, Thermodolia? I've always supported it. I opposed the First Chechen War, partly because of Direct Democracy in Ingushetia.

If the UN refused to recognize the US installed Iraqi Government, does that mean that it's open season on Americans in Iraq?

First off the UN doesn’t recognize nations and I never said it did. Second the nations of the world decided if you’re a nation or not. Third nowhere did I suggest that we should start killing Russians. You need to stop projecting my dude

What do you think is going to happen to Crimeans, if Ukraine retakes the Peninsula? And quite a few Crimeans are ethnic Russians. It would be open season on Crimeans. I'm not saying you're doing it intentionally, my dude.

[Shofercia]

The locals are massively on Russia's side. Any foreign deployment is going to be destroyed very quickly.

You seem to forget that the US has a habit of deploying to places where the locals don’t like them

Crimea is quite well defended. Deploying to Crimea would be equivalent to deploying to Russia.

No Freedom of Religion. No Freedom of Movement. Promotion of Ethnic Cleansing. Constitution not really enacted due to losing the war. Yep, it was certainly a Ukrainian Document.




The point of the bridge was to connect Crimea to Taman. Such an idea is not new in Russia, and was actually planned centuries ago. If the Russians wanted to simply blockade the straights, Russia could've done that with a few warships - no bridge needed. So no, the bridge isn't the to hurt Ukraine. It's there to help Crimea. Russia adopted a zero tolerance policy on Crimea, and so when Ukraine moved in with warships, without warnings, (the Russians are saying that they weren't informed,) that's what happens. If it was a civilian ship, that applied for clearance a few days in advance, and wasn't allowed to pass - that'd be a different story.

I know what the point of it was meant to be, the fact is it's being used to harass the Ukrainians who shouldn't really have to inform with civilian ships - I can accept informing over any military ship but civilian ships should be able to pass through without hassle or delay.

They had a cargo ship blocking the arch, it's just being petty and antagonistic, it's like constantly pinching your little brother and then crying foul when they try to punch you.

The whole thing is just petty, and both leaderships are merely using it for nationalist purposes.

I agree with you in that civilian ships should be allowed to pass without delay. But while they're en route, why not inform the Russians? It's not like there's much else to do when you're sailing in the Azov Sea. I think the issue here is that it was a military ship, and it didn't inform the bridge operators.

[Unstoppable Empire of Doom]

LMAO how can you lose naval vessels to the fucking coast guard?

To be fair the budget of Russia's coastguard is probably the budget of the Ukrainian navy's considering that its Russia and the other is heccin Urkaine.

The US coast guard budget is about the same as the Royal Navy's.

Ukraine has 1 frigate, 1 Corvette, and 39... make that 36 support craft.

Russia's coast guard has nuclear powered ice breakers. 2 Frigates, 4 Corvettes, 300 total vessels.

[Internationalist Bastard]

To be fair the budget of Russia's coastguard is probably the budget of the Ukrainian navy's considering that its Russia and the other is heccin Urkaine.

The US coast guard budget is about the same as the Royal Navy's.

Ukraine has 1 frigate, 1 Corvette, and 39... make that 36 support craft.

Russia's coast guard has nuclear powered ice breakers. 2 Frigates, 4 Corvettes, 300 total vessels.

I was never a navy person, but that doesn’t sound like awful odds, since I don’t know what counts as support craft

[Thermodolia]

Oh please you spout so much propaganda I sometimes think you work for the Kremlin

Waaa, mah opponent is saying things I disagree with, waaa!

Crimea River!

It’s not that. It’s that you spout so much propaganda that telling you and the Kremlin line apart is pretty damn hard.

Also grow up.

Press X for doubt

Considering that it took me all of five seconds to find on Google, I think you're just lazy

Or you just misunderstood what I’m saying plus I didn’t make the claim you did.
Basically I don’t trust the referendum the Russians had.

(Image)

https://www.bbg.gov/wp-content/media/20 ... e-deck.pdf

Slides 27 & 30

So Thermodolia, is there where you claim that Putin took over Gallup and Pew?

Come up with better bait. And two still not trusting the referendum.

Russia de facto stole it

Not according to the locals.

The locals can shove it.

Since when are you a hater of Direct Democracy, Thermodolia?

Since always. Hell I barely like democracy in the first place

I've always supported it. I opposed the First Chechen War, partly because of Direct Democracy in Ingushetia.

Well good for you

[Thermodolia]

The US coast guard budget is about the same as the Royal Navy's.

Ukraine has 1 frigate, 1 Corvette, and 39... make that 36 support craft.

Russia's coast guard has nuclear powered ice breakers. 2 Frigates, 4 Corvettes, 300 total vessels.

I was never a navy person, but that doesn’t sound like awful odds, since I don’t know what counts as support craft

Usually support ships are things like oilers or some shit

[Internationalist Bastard]

I was never a navy person, but that doesn’t sound like awful odds, since I don’t know what counts as support craft

Usually support ships are things like oilers or some shit

That’s what I thought
So it sounds like, outgunned, but not horribly outgunned

[Thermodolia]

You seem to forget that the US has a habit of deploying to places where the locals don’t like them

Crimea is quite well defended. Deploying to Crimea would be equivalent to deploying to Russia.

The point

You

[Thermodolia]

Usually support ships are things like oilers or some shit

That’s what I thought
So it sounds like, outgunned, but not horribly ungunned

No they are pretty damn out gunned

[Internationalist Bastard]

That’s what I thought
So it sounds like, outgunned, but not horribly ungunned

No they are pretty damn out gunned

I mean that’s only four more ships
I wouldn’t bet on them winning but I can hope for the underdog

[Thermodolia]

No they are pretty damn out gunned

I mean that’s only four more ships
I wouldn’t bet on them winning but I can hope for the underdog

Eh not really. It’s more like you have 1 infantryman and 1 Bradley against 2 infantrymen and 4 Bradley’s

[Bombadil]

No they are pretty damn out gunned

I mean that’s only four more ships
I wouldn’t bet on them winning but I can hope for the underdog

Alas for your underdog.. behind that Russian Coast Guard is a Russian Navy.. so I think the odds of Ukraine launching any form of attack is close to zero.

[Internationalist Bastard]

I mean that’s only four more ships
I wouldn’t bet on them winning but I can hope for the underdog

Eh not really. It’s more like you have 1 infantryman and 1 Bradley against 2 infantrymen and 4 Bradley’s

Oh then they’re fucked

[Novus America]

And what exactly were Ukrainian warships doing in Crimea? Russia was very clear about defending Crimea. Ukraine didn't get the memo. Now they lost a couple of ships. If Russia was to send warships to Gitmo, would the US reaction be any different? Not Havana, but Gitmo. Or perhaps if Russian warships decided to chill at Dhekelia, would the UK enjoy that? Ukraine did the equivalent of running up to an electric fence, and getting electrocuted. Why the fuck should EU and NATO rescue such stupidity? I don't mind dissing the EU, but this really isn't their fault. Same for NATO. If a kid runs to an electric fence and shocks himself, the neighborhood is not to blame.

As I understand the Kerch Strait should have free passage no, it's not like Ukraine are invading Crimea with three ships. Why block the passageway?

It's not like going to Gitmo at all.

Ukrainian ships (military or civilian) absolutely have the right.
https://www.iucn.org/content/internatio ... it-passage

They only have to request permission for “scientific research or hydrographic surveys” inside the strait.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Waaa, mah opponent is saying things I disagree with, waaa!

Crimea River!

It’s not that. It’s that you spout so much propaganda that telling you and the Kremlin line apart is pretty damn hard.

Also grow up.

Considering that it took me all of five seconds to find on Google, I think you're just lazy

Or you just misunderstood what I’m saying plus I didn’t make the claim you did.
Basically I don’t trust the referendum the Russians had.

(Image)

https://www.bbg.gov/wp-content/media/20 ... e-deck.pdf

Slides 27 & 30

So Thermodolia, is there where you claim that Putin took over Gallup and Pew?

Come up with better bait. And two still not trusting the referendum.

Not according to the locals.

The locals can shove it.

Since when are you a hater of Direct Democracy, Thermodolia?

Since always. Hell I barely like democracy in the first place

I've always supported it. I opposed the First Chechen War, partly because of Direct Democracy in Ingushetia.

Well good for you

>lives in a country founded on the premise that local people should control their way of life
>"the locals can shove it"

[The Huskar Social Union]

Russia is an innocent victim obviously