Transgender Discussion Thread III: Vote in our poll!

[Grenartia]

Literally 50% of the verses you quoted were either mistranslated or taken out of context

Can you provide some sources please? As a Christian I think it's pretty important if something I thought was a given was interpreted incorrectly.

Really, the only one that requires a source is that Corinthians 6:9-10 is mistranslated, and that's based on the fact that the word that has been commonly been translated as "abusers of themselves with mankind", arsenokoitai, appears nowhere in the Greek records prior to Paul's writings. In essence, he made it up. Modern translations like to say it means "homosexuals", but this hasn't always been the preferred interpretation. In Martin Luther's day, it was thought to mean "masturbators". The translation of the word "effeminate" is similarly flawed, albeit to a lesser degree, and is probably a reflection of Paul's sexist biases (he was, after all, a Roman citizen).

Everything else is based on logic.

Mark 10:6 - 10:9

But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

This doesn't refer to trans people at all. It is simply Christ referring to things in a way the people he was talking to would understand. It doesn't even exclude trans people at all, as this post from a Colorado pastor (which the person I was responding to was himself responding to, and quite poorly):

Seeing that we're back to the never-ending 'theology and trans' debate, I just thought for the sake of contrast I'd share this bit from a facebook post that has been making the rounds during the last month or so:

In the beginning, God created day and night. But have you ever seen a sunset!?!? Well trans and non-binary people are kind of like that. Gorgeous. Full of a hundred shades of color you can't see in plain daylight or during the night.

In the beginning God created land and sea. But have you ever seen a beach?!?! Well trans and non-binary people are kind of like that. Beautiful. A balanced oasis that's not quite like the ocean, nor quite like the land.

In the beginning God created birds of the air and fish of the sea. But have you ever seen a flying fish, or a duck or a puffin that swims and flies, spending lots of time in the water and on the land!?!? Well trans and non-binary people are kind of like that. Full of life. A creative combination of characteristics that blows people's minds.

In the beginning God also created male and female, in God's own image, God created them. So in the same way that God created realities in between, outside of, and beyond night and day, land and sea, or fish and birds, so God also created people with genders beyond male and female. Trans and non-binary and agender and intersex, God created us. All different sorts of people for all different sorts of relationships. Created from love to love and be loved. In God's image we live.

God is still creating you. You are no less beautiful and wild than a sunset or a beach or a puffin. You are loved. You have a place here.

Leviticus 18:22

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

The oldest verse, and the least applicable out of all of them to LGBT+ issues. Christ fulfilled the law, the Old Testament no longer has the force of law (just like all those parts that say you can't eat double bacon cheeseburgers, or wear cotton-wool blended fabrics, or play football, or interact with a cisgender woman during her period, or plant two different crops in the same field). It is simply included in the Bible for historical context. And even when it was relevant, it was really just customary law. Things to distinguish the Jews from the people surrounding them (like a more visible form of circumcision).

Matthew 18:6

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

This one has absolutely nothing to do with LGBT+ issues at all, but rather, condemns child abuse.

[Luminesa]

Considering that half the website has, “Put sex and gender are different in your sig if you passed biology!” in their sig, one could say technically said individuals would be making the assumption that people who didn’t know the difference failed high-school biology.

This is very interesting considering the sig I see the most is "⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧". And that does not imply people failing highschool bio.

I was going to write a complicated thing explaining why this doesn't imply that people failed highschool bio, but I also don't know if people actually have straight up "Put sex and gender are different in your sig if you passed biology!". If they have that weakens my arguement, but if they haven't then it would just be you mischaracterizing the sigs people have. So here's my short form of me explaining why at least logically, your statement is untrue based on the sig I actually see people having.

Though with the first one, it says nothing about people who don't know sex and gender are different. Mostly because the two premises are connected by an "and" so people copy and paste it simply if they both passed biology and know sex and gender are different. This means it is completely possible for someone to pass bio and not know sex and gender are different, because at least in this case, with the premises given, one does not imply the other. They are merely two statements existing in the same universe.

I couldn’t actually remember what the exact wording was, because my head’s kinda stuffy today. Thank you for that.

There’s also the fact that I somehow, by the grace of God, DID pass biology, despite never being told there was a difference. *Shrugs.*

[Grenartia]

If he's going to resort to that tactic with me, then I should be able to resort to it with him. Unless he has a special right to because you agree with him.



And him saying what he did to me isn't a personal attack on me? Or is it ok because you both reinforce each other's worldview?



Why does the sex of the baby need to be specified at all? Who the fuck other than the kid's doctor, needs to know whether the kid has their genitals on the inside or the outside?



Implying most of the time, we aren't explaining, and that we're acting in accordance with your strawman.



Then practice what you preach, be more kind, instead of maliciously reporting me at the drop of a hat.

The parents probably would want to know the sex of their baby, actually?

And...? They'll know when they change the diaper. Nobody but them and the doctor needs to know.

And maybe their friends?

Why do the parents' friends need to know what's between the baby's legs?

You know, people like to know these things?

Just because they "like" to know, doesn't mean they're entitled to know.

They have big reveal-parties and baby showers and whatnot?

""Gender" reveal" parties are pretty problematic, actually.

I mean geez, make it sound like a war crime to share pics of your new baby girl on Facebook

That's hyperbole and you fucking know it.

If you’re annoyed by it, well...don’t use Facebook I guess? I don’t, but I think Facebook is a big-data-collecting scam.

I suppose it’s malicious if you feel every single action is an act of spite against you?

I'm not the one reporting people over something that's not actually actionable.

[Grenartia]

Jesus fucking actual Christ, Grenartia. Please write posts and not goddamned abominations.

Not my fault the thread absolutely fucking blew up since last I checked on it and so many people said so many things that needed to be addressed.

The only other way to address what needed addressing would be to respond to everything in individual posts, which Moderation tends to look down on (and its fair, because it is rather spammy and inflates the post count), and so do regular posters.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

[Luminesa]

The parents probably would want to know the sex of their baby, actually? And maybe their friends? You know, people like to know these things? They have big reveal-parties and baby showers and whatnot? I mean geez, make it sound like a war crime to share pics of your new baby girl on Facebook. If you’re annoyed by it, well...don’t use Facebook I guess? I don’t, but I think Facebook is a big-data-collecting scam.

I suppose it’s malicious if you feel every single action is an act of spite against you?

My big issue with gender reveal parties is that they we're once just a little part of a baby shower and now they are super obnoixis and their own thing.

Also, it's pretty messed up, because deep down it's just a baby genital reveal party.

Eh. I guess it’s a matter of how you might want to celebrate a baby. Some people have huge parties, some people have small ones. Some people don’t say the baby’s sex until they’re born. That’s not a crime either.

...I mean, a baby several months in the womb doesn’t have any sort of a gender identity. They have a sex, for sure. And people like to celebrate having a boy or a girl.

[Grenartia]

This is very interesting considering the sig I see the most is "⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧". And that does not imply people failing highschool bio.

I was going to write a complicated thing explaining why this doesn't imply that people failed highschool bio, but I also don't know if people actually have straight up "Put sex and gender are different in your sig if you passed biology!". If they have that weakens my arguement, but if they haven't then it would just be you mischaracterizing the sigs people have. So here's my short form of me explaining why at least logically, your statement is untrue based on the sig I actually see people having.

Though with the first one, it says nothing about people who don't know sex and gender are different. Mostly because the two premises are connected by an "and" so people copy and paste it simply if they both passed biology and know sex and gender are different. This means it is completely possible for someone to pass bio and not know sex and gender are different, because at least in this case, with the premises given, one does not imply the other. They are merely two statements existing in the same universe.

I couldn’t actually remember what the exact wording was, because my head’s kinda stuffy today. Thank you for that.

There’s also the fact that I somehow, by the grace of God, DID pass biology, despite never being told there was a difference. *Shrugs.*

Then your biology class was inadequate, because you should've been told.

[Valgora]

My big issue with gender reveal parties is that they we're once just a little part of a baby shower and now they are super obnoixis and their own thing.

Also, it's pretty messed up, because deep down it's just a baby genital reveal party.

Eh. I guess it’s a matter of how you might want to celebrate a baby. Some people have huge parties, some people have small ones. Some people don’t say the baby’s sex until they’re born. That’s not a crime either.

...I mean, a baby several months in the womb doesn’t have any sort of a gender identity. They have a sex, for sure. And people like to celebrate having a boy or a girl.

On a random and slightly unrelated note:
you can by gender revealing Tannerite (binary explosives)

[Grenartia]

My big issue with gender reveal parties is that they we're once just a little part of a baby shower and now they are super obnoixis and their own thing.

Also, it's pretty messed up, because deep down it's just a baby genital reveal party.

Eh. I guess it’s a matter of how you might want to celebrate a baby. Some people have huge parties, some people have small ones. Some people don’t say the baby’s sex until they’re born. That’s not a crime either.

...I mean, a baby several months in the womb doesn’t have any sort of a gender identity. They have a sex, for sure. And people like to celebrate having a boy or a girl.

Then they should hold off on the celebrations until the kid gets to say what gender they are. But gender reveal parties tend to shoehorn expectations of a certain gender identity onto kids, and that is objectively psychologically unhealthy. David Reimer's case proved that.

Besides, as Felt said, they're literally just baby genital reveal parties.

We're not saying there needs to be cops arresting people for having "gender reveal" parties, but they do need to realize the inherent problems in the very concept, and act accordingly.

[Luminesa]

The parents probably would want to know the sex of their baby, actually?

And...? They'll know when they change the diaper. Nobody but them and the doctor needs to know.

And maybe their friends?

Why do the parents' friends need to know what's between the baby's legs?

You know, people like to know these things?

Just because they "like" to know, doesn't mean they're entitled to know.

They have big reveal-parties and baby showers and whatnot?

""Gender" reveal" parties are pretty problematic, actually.

I mean geez, make it sound like a war crime to share pics of your new baby girl on Facebook

That's hyperbole and you fucking know it.

If you’re annoyed by it, well...don’t use Facebook I guess? I don’t, but I think Facebook is a big-data-collecting scam.

I suppose it’s malicious if you feel every single action is an act of spite against you?

I'm not the one reporting people over something that's not actually actionable.

They don’t NEED to know, sure, but they would like to know. They are the parents after all, they have a right to know about their child. Nobody NEEDS to know, but you know people like to *GASP* talk about these things! Oh my gosh the horror! Imagine passing someone in the grocery store and a friend asks a random lady, “Oh you’re pregnant, is it a boy or a girl?” Why, it is entirely your duty to run up and to defend this woman from such cruel and invasive hate speech!

I’m not the one saying that a friend asking if the baby is a boy or a girl is basically akin to child abuse. I mean for heaven’s sake, you’re acting like I just told you something about YOUR kid.

Aaaaaand one that is settled in moderation.

[Luminesa]

I couldn’t actually remember what the exact wording was, because my head’s kinda stuffy today. Thank you for that.

There’s also the fact that I somehow, by the grace of God, DID pass biology, despite never being told there was a difference. *Shrugs.*

Then your biology class was inadequate, because you should've been told.

NONE of my biology classes, actually, college or high school, mentioned gender and sex being two different things. I mean, you can tell me I’ve been poorly-educated all you want, I guess, does that help you sleep at night?

[Luminesa]

Eh. I guess it’s a matter of how you might want to celebrate a baby. Some people have huge parties, some people have small ones. Some people don’t say the baby’s sex until they’re born. That’s not a crime either.

...I mean, a baby several months in the womb doesn’t have any sort of a gender identity. They have a sex, for sure. And people like to celebrate having a boy or a girl.

Then they should hold off on the celebrations until the kid gets to say what gender they are. But gender reveal parties tend to shoehorn expectations of a certain gender identity onto kids, and that is objectively psychologically unhealthy. David Reimer's case proved that.

Besides, as Felt said, they're literally just baby genital reveal parties.

We're not saying there needs to be cops arresting people for having "gender reveal" parties, but they do need to realize the inherent problems in the very concept, and act accordingly.

Soooo have cops arrest people for child abuse. Got it. Make sure the “no-fun” police take away the little baby booties and the pink dresses or even the unisex jumpers because GOD FORBID THERE’S ANY POSSIBILITY YOU’RE PUSHING YOURSELF ONTO YOUR KIDS.

[Mattopilos II]

Then your biology class was inadequate, because you should've been told.

NONE of my biology classes, actually, college or high school, mentioned gender and sex being two different things. I mean, you can tell me I’ve been poorly-educated all you want, I guess, does that help you sleep at night?

It's almost like society does influence the projection of science through a community. That is, you can be wrong about sociology or biology even if you took high school biology... one reason being it's only high school biology. They kinda forget the important fact science isn't a fully objective and infallible thing. It evolves all the time and corrects past mistakes.

[Luminesa]

Eh. I guess it’s a matter of how you might want to celebrate a baby. Some people have huge parties, some people have small ones. Some people don’t say the baby’s sex until they’re born. That’s not a crime either.

...I mean, a baby several months in the womb doesn’t have any sort of a gender identity. They have a sex, for sure. And people like to celebrate having a boy or a girl.

On a random and slightly unrelated note:
you can by gender revealing Tannerite (binary explosives)

Explain? I’m not being disingenuous, I’m not sure if I’ve heard of this method before.

[Luminesa]

NONE of my biology classes, actually, college or high school, mentioned gender and sex being two different things. I mean, you can tell me I’ve been poorly-educated all you want, I guess, does that help you sleep at night?

It's almost like society does influence the projection of science through a community. That is, you can be wrong about sociology or biology even if you took high school biology... one reason being it's only high school biology. They kinda forget the important fact science isn't a fully objective and infallible thing. It evolves all the time and corrects past mistakes.

That’s an entirely fair point. Science is always evolving. And I can’t say I was very good at biology, though I do enjoy it as a science.

[Luminesa]

Jesus fucking actual Christ, Grenartia. Please write posts and not goddamned abominations.

Not my fault the thread absolutely fucking blew up since last I checked on it and so many people said so many things that needed to be addressed.

The only other way to address what needed addressing would be to respond to everything in individual posts, which Moderation tends to look down on (and its fair, because it is rather spammy and inflates the post count), and so do regular posters.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

It’s not like you’re obligated to answer every single thing on the page. I certainly don’t, I’d have a headache. Even if I am a chatterbox.

[Mattopilos II]

It's almost like society does influence the projection of science through a community. That is, you can be wrong about sociology or biology even if you took high school biology... one reason being it's only high school biology. They kinda forget the important fact science isn't a fully objective and infallible thing. It evolves all the time and corrects past mistakes.

That’s an entirely fair point. Science is always evolving. And I can’t say I was very good at biology, though I do enjoy it as a science.

I would add that given the nature and relation of sex and gender as concepts, the reason it was likely not touched was:
1. it's a controversial topic, and
2. gender is more in the realm of sociology, sex the realm of biology. To talk of one would take more interdisciplinary insight, something that high school science tends to want to avoid.

[Grenartia]

And...? They'll know when they change the diaper. Nobody but them and the doctor needs to know.



Why do the parents' friends need to know what's between the baby's legs?



Just because they "like" to know, doesn't mean they're entitled to know.



""Gender" reveal" parties are pretty problematic, actually.



That's hyperbole and you fucking know it.



I'm not the one reporting people over something that's not actually actionable.

They don’t NEED to know, sure, but they would like to know.

Why would they (everyone who isn't the doctor or the parents) like to know what genitals the baby has? That sounds pretty damn creepy to me.

They are the parents after all, they have a right to know about their child.

You do realize I've already said the parents will know, right?

Nobody NEEDS to know, but you know people like to *GASP* talk about these things! Oh my gosh the horror! Imagine passing someone in the grocery store and a friend asks a random lady, “Oh you’re pregnant, is it a boy or a girl?” Why, it is entirely your duty to run up and to defend this woman from such cruel and invasive hate speech!

Yeah, if I was the parent of a baby-to-be, I'd be pretty disgusted by some rando coming up and asking me what my kid's genitals look like.

Hate speech is hyperbolic, but its still creepy as fuck.

I’m not the one saying that a friend asking if the baby is a boy or a girl is basically akin to child abuse.

You say that as if I am. I'm not. I'm saying its creepy to ask what a kid's genitals look like (which is literally all that asking that question before the kid can figure out which gender they are accomplishes).

I mean for heaven’s sake, you’re acting like I just told you something about YOUR kid.

You're acting like I'm trying to have you arrested for wondering whether a kid has a penis or a vagina.

[Luminesa]

That’s an entirely fair point. Science is always evolving. And I can’t say I was very good at biology, though I do enjoy it as a science.

I would add that given the nature and relation of sex and gender as concepts, the reason it was likely not touched was:
1. it's a controversial topic, and
2. gender is more in the realm of sociology, sex the realm of biology. To talk of one would take more interdisciplinary insight, something that high school science tends to want to avoid.

The second bullet-point is probably the reason why we only talked about sex and not gender. And it is definitely controversial.

[Valgora]

On a random and slightly unrelated note:
you can by gender revealing Tannerite (binary explosives)

Explain? I’m not being disingenuous, I’m not sure if I’ve heard of this method before.

Binary explosives are explosives made up of two components.

Tannerite is used for rifle targets. When you shoot them, they explode.

Sonic Boom sells gender reveal exploding targets. Shoot it, and get a blue or pink explosion depending on the kit you bought.

[Grenartia]

Then your biology class was inadequate, because you should've been told.

NONE of my biology classes, actually, college or high school, mentioned gender and sex being two different things. I mean, you can tell me I’ve been poorly-educated

Because you arguably have been.

all you want, I guess, does that help you sleep at night?

Does asking me that help you sleep at night?

[Grenartia]

Then they should hold off on the celebrations until the kid gets to say what gender they are. But gender reveal parties tend to shoehorn expectations of a certain gender identity onto kids, and that is objectively psychologically unhealthy. David Reimer's case proved that.

Besides, as Felt said, they're literally just baby genital reveal parties.

We're not saying there needs to be cops arresting people for having "gender reveal" parties, but they do need to realize the inherent problems in the very concept, and act accordingly.

Soooo have cops arrest people for child abuse. Got it. Make sure the “no-fun” police take away the little baby booties and the pink dresses or even the unisex jumpers because GOD FORBID THERE’S ANY POSSIBILITY YOU’RE PUSHING YOURSELF ONTO YOUR KIDS.

You're devolving into unreasonable hyperbole again, Lumi. This seems to be a recurring trait with you. You take something anyone says in disagreement towards you, and turn it into the worst possible thing against you you can think of and then argue against that like you have the moral highground.

[Greater Westralia]

Can you provide some sources please? As a Christian I think it's pretty important if something I thought was a given was interpreted incorrectly.

Really, the only one that requires a source is that Corinthians 6:9-10 is mistranslated, and that's based on the fact that the word that has been commonly been translated as "abusers of themselves with mankind", arsenokoitai, appears nowhere in the Greek records prior to Paul's writings. In essence, he made it up. Modern translations like to say it means "homosexuals", but this hasn't always been the preferred interpretation. In Martin Luther's day, it was thought to mean "masturbators". The translation of the word "effeminate" is similarly flawed, albeit to a lesser degree, and is probably a reflection of Paul's sexist biases (he was, after all, a Roman citizen).

Thanks for the source. I always thought Corinthians 6:9-10 applied towards all homosexual activity, but I guess its not so 'clear-cut' as that. The website seems pretty interesting as well.

[Grenartia]

Not my fault the thread absolutely fucking blew up since last I checked on it and so many people said so many things that needed to be addressed.

The only other way to address what needed addressing would be to respond to everything in individual posts, which Moderation tends to look down on (and its fair, because it is rather spammy and inflates the post count), and so do regular posters.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

It’s not like you’re obligated to answer every single thing on the page. I certainly don’t, I’d have a headache. Even if I am a chatterbox.

Well, considering most of it was directed either against me, or on the same tangent as I was previously discussing, by the unwritten rules of debate, I was obligated.

[Luminesa]

They don’t NEED to know, sure, but they would like to know.

Why would they (everyone who isn't the doctor or the parents) like to know what genitals the baby has? That sounds pretty damn creepy to me.

They are the parents after all, they have a right to know about their child.

You do realize I've already said the parents will know, right?

Nobody NEEDS to know, but you know people like to *GASP* talk about these things! Oh my gosh the horror! Imagine passing someone in the grocery store and a friend asks a random lady, “Oh you’re pregnant, is it a boy or a girl?” Why, it is entirely your duty to run up and to defend this woman from such cruel and invasive hate speech!

Yeah, if I was the parent of a baby-to-be, I'd be pretty disgusted by some rando coming up and asking me what my kid's genitals look like.

Hate speech is hyperbolic, but its still creepy as fuck.

I’m not the one saying that a friend asking if the baby is a boy or a girl is basically akin to child abuse.

You say that as if I am. I'm not. I'm saying its creepy to ask what a kid's genitals look like (which is literally all that asking that question before the kid can figure out which gender they are accomplishes).

I mean for heaven’s sake, you’re acting like I just told you something about YOUR kid.

You're acting like I'm trying to have you arrested for wondering whether a kid has a penis or a vagina.

I mean, if you find it creepy, when you have kids you can say, “That’s none of your business.” Personal preference I suppose? But telling others they need to step off for asking an innocent question is really invasive and self-righteous.

Aaaaand you’re treating it like it’s hate speech, sooooo. *Shrugs.* I mean we’re basically just discussing your opinion on gender-reveal parties.

Absurd talking points get absurd answers. “WE MUST DEFEND BABIES FROM BEING ASKED ABOUT THEIR BIOLOGICAL SEX.” The fact that it’s viewed as a positive thing to ask about a baby’s sex isn’t something that needs to change. In India you can get pushed down the stairs if your family finds the mom is having twin girls. I think the focus should be on pushing for the idea of “boy” and “girl” as positive concepts, not things to be feared because of societal roles. In places like India, boys are the breadwinners and girls are the wives. That societal role can change, or wives and mothers can be pushed to also be seen as beautiful, good people full of dignity. THESE are positive changes we can make, either in places like India and China or here!

[Luminesa]

It’s not like you’re obligated to answer every single thing on the page. I certainly don’t, I’d have a headache. Even if I am a chatterbox.

Well, considering most of it was directed either against me, or on the same tangent as I was previously discussing, by the unwritten rules of debate, I was obligated.

Fair enough?