Transgender Discussion Thread III: Vote in our poll!

[The New California Republic]

Well this shit has gone off the rails....

Not really. The discussion is still germane to the general premise of the thread.

[Khasinkonia]

Freezing sperm and eggs is a thing.

Transgender people can be very attractive. You clearly don't know many transgender people.

No it doesn't. Many transgender people are in relationships.

Having to use modern reproductive technology instead of just making babies spontaneously is harder - so I guess you agree with me that being transsexual is hard mode, life with added difficulty.

Transgender people are ranked much lower in the sexual marketplace because most normal people are much more interested in a normal person of the opposite sex than in a transgender person.

Transgender people are much less likely to be in stable relationships.

All of your arguments here basically asking me "what is statistics" and you should know that already.

The average outcome of a transgender person is one of significantly less relationship stability and less sexual marketplace value.

You know, at least in spite of all of these theoreticals, my relationship with myself will undoubtedly be much better. On like going from a ‘maybe I’ll try and see if I can make it through tomorrow’ level to ‘hey well at least we’re somewhere’.

Look I’d make an ugly man by most metrics anyway, so if the choice is between being an kinda ugly man and being a kinda ugly woman, I’ll chose being the one that doesn’t make me slowly die spiritually.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Well this shit has gone off the rails....

That's why I don't question anything on the thread here, because the moment you try to have a semi-reasonable skeptical discussion, less reasonable people who watch the thread will jump in and try to piggy back on what you're saying.

[Mercuriuseudoro]

Why the fuck do you judge someone on their "sexual marketplace value"?

Having a low sexual marketplace value makes life hard. This is not a judgement, it is just an observation that being transgender makes some things harder than being someone who is comfortable in their body, and it makes nothing easier.

[Mercuriuseudoro]

Well this shit has gone off the rails....

It is supreme moral cowardice to attempt to co-exist with an ideology that encourages the sterilization of children. Giving opposite-sex hormones to angsty teenagers and castrating them is "off the rails."

[Khasinkonia]

Why the fuck do you judge someone on their "sexual marketplace value"?

Having a low sexual marketplace value makes life hard. This is not a judgement, it is just an observation that being transgender makes some things harder than being someone who is comfortable in their body, and it makes nothing easier.

I mean being unattractive isn’t all to bad for those folks who like living alone and don’t really care for flirting.

[The New California Republic]

Well this shit has gone off the rails....

It is supreme moral cowardice to attempt to co-exist with an ideology that encourages the sterilization of children. Giving opposite-sex hormones to angsty teenagers and castrating them is "off the rails."

Lol. Nice straw man.

[Vassenor]

Why the fuck do you judge someone on their "sexual marketplace value"?

Having a low sexual marketplace value makes life hard. This is not a judgement, it is just an observation that being transgender makes some things harder than being someone who is comfortable in their body, and it makes nothing easier.

So you're judging us based on nothing more than the warped worldview the MGTOWs espouse?

[The New California Republic]

Why the fuck do you judge someone on their "sexual marketplace value"?

Having a low sexual marketplace value makes life hard. This is not a judgement, it is just an observation that being transgender makes some things harder than being someone who is comfortable in their body, and it makes nothing easier.

So what is the alternative?

[Mercuriuseudoro]

Your argument was that the person is made sterile, which I nullified by pointing out that it doesn't really matter.

Statistics that you haven't given.

Nonsense. You couldn't choose to be attracted to them sexually. Come on man, surely you can see that you are talking bullshit? Surely? No?

People are considered "sterile" if they cannot reproduce without medical technology. The reproduction rate of transgender people is very low, which deprives the average transgender person of having a family, which is a basic part of being human.

I'm not going to google myself to death because of every obvious fact I don't provide for you. Literally, google it for yourself, you can find plenty of publications and anecdotes about the rejection that transgender people experience when trying to date heterosexuals, who for the most part do not want to date them.

I said I could choose to have sex with them. I assume I would get used to it - this happens in prison all the time.

You seem to be confused about what "choice" means. Choice is not wanting, choice is doing.

[Vassenor]

Your argument was that the person is made sterile, which I nullified by pointing out that it doesn't really matter.

Statistics that you haven't given.

Nonsense. You couldn't choose to be attracted to them sexually. Come on man, surely you can see that you are talking bullshit? Surely? No?

People are considered "sterile" if they cannot reproduce without medical technology. The reproduction rate of transgender people is very low, which deprives the average transgender person of having a family, which is a basic part of being human.

I'm not going to google myself to death because of every obvious fact I don't provide for you. Literally, google it for yourself, you can find plenty of publications and anecdotes about the rejection that transgender people experience when trying to date heterosexuals, who for the most part do not want to date them.

I said I could choose to have sex with them. I assume I would get used to it - this happens in prison all the time.

You seem to be confused about what "choice" means. Choice is not wanting, choice is doing.

So are we saying that the biologically infertile aren't human now? Or the voluntarily celibate?

Also going straight for the #notmyjobtoeducateyou SJW-ism, I see.

[The New California Republic]

People are considered "sterile" if they cannot reproduce without medical technology. The reproduction rate of transgender people is very low, which deprives the average transgender person of having a family, which is a basic part of being human.

FTM people can have kids you know. So can MTF people. Not all transgender people have the primary sexual organs removed/altered. And they can have a family in other ways if they want: it is called adoption...

---

I'm not going to google myself to death because of every obvious fact I don't provide for you. Literally, google it for yourself, you can find plenty of publications and anecdotes about the rejection that transgender people experience when trying to date heterosexuals, who for the most part do not want to date them.

You are fairly new to the forums, so you can perhaps be forgiven for not knowing this: if you make a claim then the burden of proof is on you to substantiate said claim. It is a major cop out to say "go and find the sources yourself".

---

I said I could choose to have sex with them. I assume I would get used to it - this happens in prison all the time.

You seem to be confused about what "choice" means. Choice is not wanting, choice is doing.

I asked if being heterosexual was a choice. Heterosexuality means being attracted to the opposite sex. You are moving the goalposts by focusing solely on the sexual act, probably because you know that you are completely wrong.

[Mercuriuseudoro]

You know, at least in spite of all of these theoreticals, my relationship with myself will undoubtedly be much better. On like going from a ‘maybe I’ll try and see if I can make it through tomorrow’ level to ‘hey well at least we’re somewhere’.

Look I’d make an ugly man by most metrics anyway, so if the choice is between being an kinda ugly man and being a kinda ugly woman, I’ll chose being the one that doesn’t make me slowly die spiritually.

This brings me back to my thesis.

-

1) It is unfortunate for you, and other people in your situation, that you have to go through some process that involves becoming sterile, expensive and risky medicine, and widespread social rejection, in order to have a better relationship with yourself.

It would be better for you, as a person, if you could just have a good relationship with yourself, without going through these hurdles.

2) It is a new thing that people are experiencing this. There did not used to be anywhere near this number of people who had such poor relationships with themselves.

-

So far, no one has refuted this thesis, so I'll just move ahead from that point.

Firstly, this should make us ask why this new thing is present in society, since it is affecting people negatively.

Secondly - I mean, please understand that I'm not trying to be an ass here, I just genuinely don't think that "obesity acceptance" or "smoking acceptance" or "X problem acceptance" is healthy for society, I'm pretty sure it actually creates more people with X problem by permitting it.This shouldn't be seen as a lack of compassion for people who are already in that situation.

Why do you have a bad relationship with yourself? I just don't get it. Can you explain that to me?

To me, my body is just the skin that I'm in, a vehicle for my soul to move around on earth. I'm entirely certain I've had past lives as a woman, I could adapt to being one, but I've adapted to being what I am, instead, because I'm just not fussy about it. My body is meat-clothing, and the one I have works. I just prefer to spend my energy on the outside world, rather than trying to redefine myself. I'm not at war with who I am - I'm sure I was born in this body for a reason and it doesn't make me uncomfortable to conform to my sexual role.

Why not just see things that way, and suffer less? Why aren't you good enough the way you are?

Genuinely curious to read the answer.

[Mercuriuseudoro]

if you make a claim then the burden of proof is on you to substantiate said claim. It is a major cop out to say "go and find the sources yourself".

I asked if being heterosexual was a choice. Heterosexuality means being attracted to the opposite sex. You are moving the goalposts by focusing solely on the sexual act, probably because you know that you are completely wrong.

Okay - the burden of proof is on you to substantiate your claim that "if you make a claim then the burden of proof is on you to substantiate said claim." I cannot be expected to know this, either through reason, experience or learning - you must, now, find a source which states this, or I will not believe it.

If you do this work for me, I will dispute the source.

-

You asked if I could be in a sexual relationship with another man, and I answered your question, because the answer was obvious - yes, it is within my power to do that.

Now you have moved the goalposts to discuss whether it is in my power to be attracted to another man, and honestly, your sexual curiosity for me, personally, is making me a little uncomfortable. I'm not available.

[Valgora]

if you make a claim then the burden of proof is on you to substantiate said claim. It is a major cop out to say "go and find the sources yourself".

I asked if being heterosexual was a choice. Heterosexuality means being attracted to the opposite sex. You are moving the goalposts by focusing solely on the sexual act, probably because you know that you are completely wrong.

Okay - the burden of proof is on you to substantiate your claim that "if you make a claim then the burden of proof is on you to substantiate said claim." I cannot be expected to know this, either through reason, experience or learning - you must, now, find a source which states this, or I will not believe it.

If you do this work for me, I will dispute the source.

Thou Shalt Not Commit Logical Fallacies

[The New California Republic]

Okay - the burden of proof is on you to substantiate your claim that "if you make a claim then the burden of proof is on you to substantiate said claim." I cannot be expected to know this, either through reason, experience or learning - you must, now, find a source which states this, or I will not believe it.

If you do this work for me, I will dispute the source.

No. You made a claim, provide a source, or I will just dismiss the claim. I'm not providing sources for your claims. That isn't how any of this works.

You asked if I could be in a sexual relationship with another man, and I answered your question, because the answer was obvious - yes, it is within my power to do that.

Nope. I asked you if being heterosexual was a choice, and you twisted it into meaning the sexual act alone.

your sexual curiosity for me, personally, is making me a little uncomfortable. I'm not available.

ROFL. Don't flatter yourself.

[Farnhamia]

Let's drop the "who's attracted to whom" line, shall we?

MercuriusEudoro, it's not a requirement that you provide linked sources for your claim, not by any means, but it does tend to make you look bad. It also has a tendency to divert the discussion into unproductive side channels.

[Novus America]

You know, at least in spite of all of these theoreticals, my relationship with myself will undoubtedly be much better. On like going from a ‘maybe I’ll try and see if I can make it through tomorrow’ level to ‘hey well at least we’re somewhere’.

Look I’d make an ugly man by most metrics anyway, so if the choice is between being an kinda ugly man and being a kinda ugly woman, I’ll chose being the one that doesn’t make me slowly die spiritually.

This brings me back to my thesis.

-

1) It is unfortunate for you, and other people in your situation, that you have to go through some process that involves becoming sterile, expensive and risky medicine, and widespread social rejection, in order to have a better relationship with yourself.

It would be better for you, as a person, if you could just have a good relationship with yourself, without going through these hurdles.

2) It is a new thing that people are experiencing this. There did not used to be anywhere near this number of people who had such poor relationships with themselves.

-

So far, no one has refuted this thesis, so I'll just move ahead from that point.

Firstly, this should make us ask why this new thing is present in society, since it is affecting people negatively.

Secondly - I mean, please understand that I'm not trying to be an ass here, I just genuinely don't think that "obesity acceptance" or "smoking acceptance" or "X problem acceptance" is healthy for society, I'm pretty sure it actually creates more people with X problem by permitting it.This shouldn't be seen as a lack of compassion for people who are already in that situation.

Why do you have a bad relationship with yourself? I just don't get it. Can you explain that to me?

To me, my body is just the skin that I'm in, a vehicle for my soul to move around on earth. I'm entirely certain I've had past lives as a woman, I could adapt to being one, but I've adapted to being what I am, instead, because I'm just not fussy about it. My body is meat-clothing, and the one I have works. I just prefer to spend my energy on the outside world, rather than trying to redefine myself. I'm not at war with who I am - I'm sure I was born in this body for a reason and it doesn't make me uncomfortable to conform to my sexual role.

Why not just see things that way, and suffer less? Why aren't you good enough the way you are?

Genuinely curious to read the answer.

Taking the easy route is not necessarily a virtue. Not that your route would necessarily be easier in all ways, even if it might be easier in some.

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”

Theodore Roosevelt, 1910

Note I am not in fact transgendered either. But it is not my position to tell others how to live their lives, so long as they do not harm others.

Especially considering this is not a just a personal opinion nor game, this is real people going through real things, and this involves complex medical matters we are not qualified to give advice on. You can say you disagree on the overall idea, but as what individuals here should and should not do regarding their own gender disphoria and what treatment they should or should not get is something that is between them and their medical professional.

None of us here are qualified to give them medical advice.

[Tarsonis]

Well this shit has gone off the rails....

It is supreme moral cowardice to attempt to co-exist with an ideology that encourages the sterilization of children. Giving opposite-sex hormones to angsty teenagers and castrating them is "off the rails."

Yeah see I was having a reasonable discussion about the ethics of delaying puberty, we were debating facts and the implications of those facts, cross checking each others data etc etc. then you co-opted the discussion with whatever the hell these tangents are. Hence, off the rails

[Tarsonis]

Well this shit has gone off the rails....

That's why I don't question anything on the thread here, because the moment you try to have a semi-reasonable skeptical discussion, less reasonable people who watch the thread will jump in and try to piggy back on what you're saying.

It’s a shame. The discussion was going pretty well too.

[Mercuriuseudoro]

Let's drop the "who's attracted to whom" line, shall we?

MercuriusEudoro, it's not a requirement that you provide linked sources for your claim, not by any means, but it does tend to make you look bad. It also has a tendency to divert the discussion into unproductive side channels.

It is a filibuster tactic to ask me to provide research for a claim such as "transgender people are ranked lower in the sexual marketplace than heterosexuals." I am willing to provide sources for claims which are in dispute, but this claim is not disputed by anyone. Transgender people themselves vocally identify, as a problem they face, the fact that they are overwhelmingly rejected in the sexual marketplace by normal people, who overwhelmingly prefer to date other normal people instead.

These people, themselves, have unanimously indicated that this is as an obstacle to their social integration with their transitioned identity, and that they face greater difficulty and more rejection in relationships with normal people than do other normal people.

I am willing to provide evidence for an assertion which is contested, but I will not respond to attempts to filibuster by educating people about "the sky is blue" statements which are unanimously accepted across the spectrum of debate. The person who attempts to do this makes themselves look bad, and has the tendency to divert the discussion into unproductive side channels.

[Cekoviu]

Have any of y’all ever wished y’all knew y’all were trans as young children, if y’all didn’t, and like were able to raise a fuss and change something? I kinda wish I actually knew about trans people as a kid, so I could’ve known more about myself and implored my parents as a young child more.

I categorically reject the notion that an adolescent child is capable of legitimately understanding the complexities of gender identification, evaluating their own Id and superego, and creating a valid gendered ego of themselves.

As a young adult into adulthood? Sure.

So you're saying children should be socialized in a gender-neutral way. Great! Glad we're on the same page.

[Khasinkonia]

You know, at least in spite of all of these theoreticals, my relationship with myself will undoubtedly be much better. On like going from a ‘maybe I’ll try and see if I can make it through tomorrow’ level to ‘hey well at least we’re somewhere’.

Look I’d make an ugly man by most metrics anyway, so if the choice is between being an kinda ugly man and being a kinda ugly woman, I’ll chose being the one that doesn’t make me slowly die spiritually.

This brings me back to my thesis.

-

1) It is unfortunate for you, and other people in your situation, that you have to go through some process that involves becoming sterile, expensive and risky medicine, and widespread social rejection, in order to have a better relationship with yourself.

It would be better for you, as a person, if you could just have a good relationship with yourself, without going through these hurdles.

2) It is a new thing that people are experiencing this. There did not used to be anywhere near this number of people who had such poor relationships with themselves.

-

So far, no one has refuted this thesis, so I'll just move ahead from that point.

Firstly, this should make us ask why this new thing is present in society, since it is affecting people negatively.

Secondly - I mean, please understand that I'm not trying to be an ass here, I just genuinely don't think that "obesity acceptance" or "smoking acceptance" or "X problem acceptance" is healthy for society, I'm pretty sure it actually creates more people with X problem by permitting it.This shouldn't be seen as a lack of compassion for people who are already in that situation.

Why do you have a bad relationship with yourself? I just don't get it. Can you explain that to me?

To me, my body is just the skin that I'm in, a vehicle for my soul to move around on earth. I'm entirely certain I've had past lives as a woman, I could adapt to being one, but I've adapted to being what I am, instead, because I'm just not fussy about it. My body is meat-clothing, and the one I have works. I just prefer to spend my energy on the outside world, rather than trying to redefine myself. I'm not at war with who I am - I'm sure I was born in this body for a reason and it doesn't make me uncomfortable to conform to my sexual role.

Why not just see things that way, and suffer less? Why aren't you good enough the way you are?

Genuinely curious to read the answer.

It is indeed a symptom of the modern era where we have the luxury of considering mental health, when only a century ago life was a short and brutal thing for many that left little time for reflection. The unfortunate truth of the matter is that there has only been found one lasting resolution to gender dysphoria, that bring to transition. Every year, the psychological community comes more in consensus that other proposed solutions either do not work at all, or provide only temporary relief to the detriment of the long-term. I tried to see things that way—that’s how I got through childhood. But eventually, by my Christian theology, I had to come to see my body as part of me, not just a meat-puppet that my otherwise detached soul uses as a medium. And when I came to understand that my body was as much a part of me as my soul, problems arose because my mind is fundamentally incompatible with my body. The hormonal makeup does not suit my mind, nor does the recommended physical structure suit it. That said, I view my body as a microcosm for my mind, in a way. And part of the human condition is to change your environment to suit yourself. Living in a male body for me is akin to human scraping out a living in the arctic. Could I survive in a male body? Perhaps, if I grit my teeth and were dedicated solely to existing for the sake of existing, but it is impossible for me to thrive as it is. The conditions simply aren’t livable in the slightest. Transitioning isn’t easy in any sense of the word, but it does create a new environment. Even though it is initially highly damaging to the close circle if the family disagrees, I’d much rather be the person I know I ought to be than what anyone else says is natural. My natural state is whatever I feel most adept in, the state I thrive in. And the state I’m in right now is anything but.

All that said, I do understand gender dysphoria is extremely difficult for some people to make sense out of, and even the scientific community only broadly agrees on the existence of it, and general trademarks. We don’t know what causes this, but we know something that helps. And I’d rather do something that helps and live with the consequences than live my entire life the same detached machine I was when I was younger. I’d rather lose every single person in my family, and every last one of my friends than lose myself. I can find other friends, but I can’t find another me.

And before anyone brings up again that we don’t know what exactly causes gender dysphoria, it isn’t for lack of trying on our parts. But we don’t have too much in the way of resources, so most research is done as observation from the outside, which on some accounts can be beneficial to the scientific process. On the other hand, trans issues, such as the long-term effects of puberty blockers, useful distinguishing factors in childhood(if any), and, most importantly, perhaps, the deepest roots of gender dysphoria, are still tragically underresearched. I’ll be the first to acknowledge that we don’t know enough. And the case, however unlikely I may consider it, may well be that everything we know now is wrong, and that there is something very different at work. But whatever the case may be, we can’t learn more without trying, and trying sometimes may mean making mistakes. I’d rather take the chance of making a mistake and know I’ve made one than live my entire life suppressing something and never knowing what could’ve been.

[The New California Republic]

Let's drop the "who's attracted to whom" line, shall we?

MercuriusEudoro, it's not a requirement that you provide linked sources for your claim, not by any means, but it does tend to make you look bad. It also has a tendency to divert the discussion into unproductive side channels.

It is a filibuster tactic to ask me to provide research for a claim such as "transgender people are ranked lower in the sexual marketplace than heterosexuals." I am willing to provide sources for claims which are in dispute, but this claim is not disputed by anyone. Transgender people themselves vocally identify, as a problem they face, the fact that they are overwhelmingly rejected in the sexual marketplace by normal people, who overwhelmingly prefer to date other normal people instead.

These people, themselves, have unanimously indicated that this is as an obstacle to their social integration with their transitioned identity, and that they face greater difficulty and more rejection in relationships with normal people than do other normal people.

I am willing to provide evidence for an assertion which is contested, but I will not respond to attempts to filibuster by educating people about "the sky is blue" statements which are unanimously accepted across the spectrum of debate. The person who attempts to do this makes themselves look bad, and has the tendency to divert this discussion into unproductive side channels.

The attempt at blame reversal didn't work. Sorry.

[Tarsonis]

I categorically reject the notion that an adolescent child is capable of legitimately understanding the complexities of gender identification, evaluating their own Id and superego, and creating a valid gendered ego of themselves.

As a young adult into adulthood? Sure.

So you're saying children should be socialized in a gender-neutral way. Great! Glad we're on the same page.

Dude, don’t take the reciprocal rout and go to the other extreme here.