I’m pretty sure “9-years-old” isn’t “early-teenage-child”. 15, maybe.
Advertisement
by Luminesa » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:27 pm
by Khasinkonia » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:32 pm
Luminesa wrote:The New California Republic wrote:Find me a definition of child abuse which states that giving hormone blockers to an early teenage child with their consent is child abuse. I'll save you some time: you won't find one.
I’m pretty sure “9-years-old” isn’t “early-teenage-child”. 15, maybe.
by Luminesa » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:36 pm
Cekoviu wrote:Luminesa wrote:Uhhhhhh as far as I know “boy” means “male” and “girl” means “female”. If the doctor takes the baby out the womb and yells to the mom, “IT’S A BOY!” it’s because he knows that the genetic makeup of the baby means they are male.
No, it's not. Doctors don't perform karyotypes immediately after birth, they look at the genitalia of the baby, which do not necessarily have to be the same as what the genome of the baby would imply. The fact that doctors assume the gender of a child based on their genitalia is a huge issue, but it does not mean "boy/girl" and "male/female" are interchangeable.Most people probably aren’t thinking about when they’re having a casual conversation.
And that's a problem.In fact if you were to walk up to someone and say, “Um, no that’s not a ‘boy’ you’re referring to, it’s a ‘male’,” I’m pretty sure you’d either get a weird look or a slap.
Why would I do that? "Boy" is still a useful term, but my point is that "boy" and "male" are not synonyms. If you were to call a 60-year-old man a "boy", you would certainly be the one to get weird looks, while calling him "male" is perfectly normal, if clinical.
by Luminesa » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:37 pm
Khasinkonia wrote:Luminesa wrote:I’m pretty sure “9-years-old” isn’t “early-teenage-child”. 15, maybe.
Well, I think NCR is more referring to what we might also call tweenagers, like right around the age they enter puberty. For cis girls(and, more pertinent to the topic of discussion, pretransition trans boys), puberty may well start around 9. It depends. The idea is to give trans kids time before entering puberty to ensure they go down the right puberty for them.
by Khasinkonia » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:42 pm
Luminesa wrote:Khasinkonia wrote:Well, I think NCR is more referring to what we might also call tweenagers, like right around the age they enter puberty. For cis girls(and, more pertinent to the topic of discussion, pretransition trans boys), puberty may well start around 9. It depends. The idea is to give trans kids time before entering puberty to ensure they go down the right puberty for them.
It IS true that puberty for a lot of kids, transgender or not, has been starting earlier and earlier.
by Tarsonis » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:51 pm
Valgora wrote:Tarsonis wrote:Artificially suppressing puberty, for a child who cannot reasonably make a decision about their gender identity, is nothing short of unethical. It's not like simply hitting pause on development as people make the claim. It can lead to developmental issues later on life.
Further more, studies have repeatedly shown that gender dysphoria usually doesn't persist past adolescence. Essentially, once they actually hit puberty, most children's genders conform to their sex. Which means that more than likely said child with "grow out of it" during puberty. Suppressing puberty actively blocks this correction.
The notion suppressing puberty is good medicine is nothing short of ideological nonsense, that flies in the face of observable fact.
What are the studies that you speak of?
And suppressing puberty for a child ain't unethical.
Good, but we're not talking about that now are we.For one: they are used when children begin puberty too young - if their bodies start to change before the age of 8, they are prescribed puberty blockers.
They are also a safe medication.
"Dr. Courtney Finlayson, a pediatric endocrinologist at Lurie Children’s Hospital, said, 'We have a lot of experience in pediatric endocrinology using pubertal blockers. And from all the evidence we have they are generally a very safe medication.'"
Also:
"'That’s really what these pubertal blockers do,' Dr. Rob Garofalo told FRONTLINE. Garofalo is the director of the Lurie Children’s Hospital’s Gender and Sex Development Program. 'They allow these families the opportunity to hit a pause button, to prevent natal puberty … until we know that that’s either the right or the wrong direction for their particular child.'
Doctors who use puberty blockers say they allow children who experience gender dysphoria — the feeling that they’re in the wrong body — the time and space to explore and settle on their gender identity."
Quotes are from: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/arti ... d-unknown/
"Puberty blockers are commonly used for the transgender community. In this community, puberty blockers are used to provide transgender youth with time to further explore their identity, while halting the development of their predisposed sex characteristics caused by the onset of puberty.
Puberty blockers serve the transgender community by giving future trans men and trans women more time to solidify their gender identity, without developing secondary sex characteristics. If a child later decides not to transition to another gender, the effects of puberty blockers can be reversed by stopping the medication
. Another function of puberty blockers is that it gives the future transgender individual a smoother transition into their desired gender identity as an adult."
- Wikipedia
by Vassenor » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:58 pm
Tarsonis wrote:Valgora wrote:
What are the studies that you speak of?
https://www.transgendertrend.com/wp-con ... -rates.pdf
We are concerned that the increased public awareness of transgender issues has led to parents worrying unnecessarily about normal childhood behaviours. Throughout the media, in cases of ‘trans kids,’ those parents who uncritically accept the trans ideology are the ones who are deemed ‘brave’ and ‘supportive,’ leading to huge pressure on parents to accept the diagnosis of transgender. When worried parents seek information online they inevitably come across sites that reinforce (and even glamourise) the notion of the transgender child. We wanted to create a site which balanced that view with some research and facts which challenge the prevailing acceptance of an ideology which is new, untested, and invariably based on personal belief systems.
We also want to provide information on legislation regarding the use of public toilets, bathrooms and changing rooms for parents who are concerned about the child protection and safeguarding issues this raises.
In light of these numerous factors known to be linked to persistence or desistance, it is not accurate to conceptualize “gender-dysphoric children” as a homogeneous group where any given member has a roughly 80% likelihood of desisting in their dysphoria. Instead, an individual member of this combined group should instead be understood as either falling into one group that is very unlikely to persist, or falling into another group that is very likely to persist.
by Tarsonis » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:06 pm
Vassenor wrote:We are concerned that the increased public awareness of transgender issues has led to parents worrying unnecessarily about normal childhood behaviours. Throughout the media, in cases of ‘trans kids,’ those parents who uncritically accept the trans ideology are the ones who are deemed ‘brave’ and ‘supportive,’ leading to huge pressure on parents to accept the diagnosis of transgender. When worried parents seek information online they inevitably come across sites that reinforce (and even glamourise) the notion of the transgender child. We wanted to create a site which balanced that view with some research and facts which challenge the prevailing acceptance of an ideology which is new, untested, and invariably based on personal belief systems.
We also want to provide information on legislation regarding the use of public toilets, bathrooms and changing rooms for parents who are concerned about the child protection and safeguarding issues this raises.
Oh, this site totally isn't biased at all. Nosiree.
by Arcturus Novus » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:09 pm
Auzkhia wrote:A real therapist who will support and help you or one who will try to "convert" you to being cishet? There's a strong difference.
by Tarsonis » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:19 pm
Vassenor wrote:We are concerned that the increased public awareness of transgender issues has led to parents worrying unnecessarily about normal childhood behaviours. Throughout the media, in cases of ‘trans kids,’ those parents who uncritically accept the trans ideology are the ones who are deemed ‘brave’ and ‘supportive,’ leading to huge pressure on parents to accept the diagnosis of transgender. When worried parents seek information online they inevitably come across sites that reinforce (and even glamourise) the notion of the transgender child. We wanted to create a site which balanced that view with some research and facts which challenge the prevailing acceptance of an ideology which is new, untested, and invariably based on personal belief systems.
We also want to provide information on legislation regarding the use of public toilets, bathrooms and changing rooms for parents who are concerned about the child protection and safeguarding issues this raises.
Oh, this site totally isn't biased at all. Nosiree.
In rebuttal:
When “desisters” aren’t: De-desistance in childhood and adolescent gender dysphoriaIn light of these numerous factors known to be linked to persistence or desistance, it is not accurate to conceptualize “gender-dysphoric children” as a homogeneous group where any given member has a roughly 80% likelihood of desisting in their dysphoria. Instead, an individual member of this combined group should instead be understood as either falling into one group that is very unlikely to persist, or falling into another group that is very likely to persist.
by Vassenor » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:25 pm
Tarsonis wrote:Vassenor wrote:
Oh, this site totally isn't biased at all. Nosiree.
In rebuttal:
When “desisters” aren’t: De-desistance in childhood and adolescent gender dysphoria
Responding to perceived bias with overt bias. Well that's a bold move.
Any way this issue was actually addressed in Singh's dissertation:
"Of the 139 participants, 88 (63.3%) met diagnostic criteria for GID in childhood and
the remaining 51 (36.7%) were subthreshold for the diagnosis. "
"The two childhood diagnostic subgroups did not show significant differences in their developmental trajectories, at least in regard to persistence of gender dysphoria. In this study, the categorical diagnosis of GID itself was, therefore, not a good prognosticator of persistence/desistence of GID over time. "
So rebuttal rebutted.
by Novus America » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:26 pm
Arcturus Novus wrote:Hediacrana wrote:
Sounds like they did not take it as well as one might have hoped.
Yeah, not quite lmao.Auzkhia wrote:A real therapist who will support and help you or one who will try to "convert" you to being cishet? There's a strong difference.
I don't think they'll send me to a conversion therapy center, my mom would never allow that. My dad, he just...
He sees this as a phase. Something that's arisen in the past few months, something that I'm doing just to find a sense of belonging in the world. Something that needs to be taken care of before I end up hurting myself, I guess.
by Mercuriuseudoro » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:28 pm
Arcturus Novus wrote:something that I'm doing just to find a sense of belonging in the world. Something that needs to be taken care of before I end up hurting myself, I guess.
by Vassenor » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:30 pm
MercuriusEudoro wrote:Arcturus Novus wrote:something that I'm doing just to find a sense of belonging in the world. Something that needs to be taken care of before I end up hurting myself, I guess.
Well, where's the lie?
"Gender roles are socially arbitrarily distinctions, that's why we need to sterilize children with hormones and make them appear to be the opposite sex."
What was the suicide rate for transgenders? 44%, or something like that?
What about their lifespans, and rates of depression, substance abuse, domestic violence, AIDS, other STDs, etc?
Wanting to cut off your hand because you identify as disabled, for example, is classified as a psychiatric disroder - "body dysmorphia" or something like that. Still, compared to transgenderism, people who go down the "this is not my hand" path have a better prognosis in terms of mental health, social integration and life expectancy.
You should google around for some graphic images of dilation if you really want to know what you are edging on, and ask yourself if maybe you would like to have children one day and not go extinct. It's the best thing in the world.
If you just adjust to your reality, instead of trying to adjust your reality to this new trend, you will be statistically much less likely to kill yourself.
by Philjia » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:39 pm
MercuriusEudoro wrote:Arcturus Novus wrote:something that I'm doing just to find a sense of belonging in the world. Something that needs to be taken care of before I end up hurting myself, I guess.
Well, where's the lie?
"Gender roles are socially arbitrary distinctions, that's why we need to sterilize children with hormones and make them appear to be the opposite sex - so that they can conform with those arbitrarily roles."
This never made sense to me.
Nemesis the Warlock wrote:I am the Nemesis, I am the Warlock, I am the shape of things to come, the Lord of the Flies, holder of the Sword Sinister, the Death Bringer, I am the one who waits on the edge of your dreams, I am all these things and many more
by Tarsonis » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:42 pm
Vassenor wrote:Tarsonis wrote:
Responding to perceived bias with overt bias. Well that's a bold move.
Any way this issue was actually addressed in Singh's dissertation:
"Of the 139 participants, 88 (63.3%) met diagnostic criteria for GID in childhood and
the remaining 51 (36.7%) were subthreshold for the diagnosis. "
"The two childhood diagnostic subgroups did not show significant differences in their developmental trajectories, at least in regard to persistence of gender dysphoria. In this study, the categorical diagnosis of GID itself was, therefore, not a good prognosticator of persistence/desistence of GID over time. "
So rebuttal rebutted.
In what way? Just pulling a random statistic out of the study and posting it devoid of context doesn't really do anything.
And what is the bias in the source I linked?
by Tarsonis » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:43 pm
Vassenor wrote:MercuriusEudoro wrote:
Well, where's the lie?
"Gender roles are socially arbitrarily distinctions, that's why we need to sterilize children with hormones and make them appear to be the opposite sex."
What was the suicide rate for transgenders? 44%, or something like that?
What about their lifespans, and rates of depression, substance abuse, domestic violence, AIDS, other STDs, etc?
Wanting to cut off your hand because you identify as disabled, for example, is classified as a psychiatric disroder - "body dysmorphia" or something like that. Still, compared to transgenderism, people who go down the "this is not my hand" path have a better prognosis in terms of mental health, social integration and life expectancy.
You should google around for some graphic images of dilation if you really want to know what you are edging on, and ask yourself if maybe you would like to have children one day and not go extinct. It's the best thing in the world.
If you just adjust to your reality, instead of trying to adjust your reality to this new trend, you will be statistically much less likely to kill yourself.
Statistically you are less likely to kill yourself if the people closest to you aren't twats to you about it.
by Mercuriuseudoro » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:46 pm
by Novus America » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:49 pm
MercuriusEudoro wrote:Arcturus Novus wrote:something that I'm doing just to find a sense of belonging in the world. Something that needs to be taken care of before I end up hurting myself, I guess.
Well, where's the lie?
"Gender roles are socially arbitrary distinctions, that's why we need to sterilize children with hormones and make them appear to be the opposite sex - so that they can conform with those arbitrarily roles."
This never made sense to me.
What was the suicide rate for transgenders? 44%, or something like that? What about their lifespans, and rates of depression, substance abuse, domestic violence, AIDS, other STDs, etc? Wanting to cut off your hand because you identify as disabled, for example, is classified as a psychiatric disroder - "body dysmorphia" or something like that. Still, compared to transgenderism, people who go down the "this is not my hand" path have a better prognosis in terms of mental health, social integration and life expectancy.
You should google around for some graphic images of dilation if you really want to know what you are edging on, and ask yourself if maybe you would like to have children one day and not go extinct. It's the best thing in the world.
If you just adjust to your reality, instead of trying to adjust your reality to this new trend, you will be statistically much less likely to kill yourself.
You're beautiful just the way you are.
by Khasinkonia » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:50 pm
by Vassenor » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:51 pm
MercuriusEudoro wrote:
Or maybe people who want to cut their genitals also want to cut their wrists because it's part of the same general discontent?
You aren't going to have less sterilized people / dead people because you moralize about how people should be nice to people who want to sterilize themselves and eventually kill themselves because of the depression of having no family or romantic future.
Instead of waiting for the overwhelming majority of normal people to win the battle against their own instinctive reaction to people who sterilize themselves and kill themselves, you should spend your energy asking why people even want to do this.
Since it's a new thing with no historical precedent, but which is suddenly popular, it's reasonable to conclude that it is the product of a new culture or a new chemical environment, but that it is not really innate to the human condition. People certainly weren't doing this, or thinking about doing it on any scale fifty years ago.
by Mercuriuseudoro » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:52 pm
Philjia wrote:Probably because you've got the wrong end of the stick.
by Mercuriuseudoro » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:53 pm
by Ifreann » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:54 pm
Vassenor wrote:MercuriusEudoro wrote:
Or maybe people who want to cut their genitals also want to cut their wrists because it's part of the same general discontent?
You aren't going to have less sterilized people / dead people because you moralize about how people should be nice to people who want to sterilize themselves and eventually kill themselves because of the depression of having no family or romantic future.
Instead of waiting for the overwhelming majority of normal people to win the battle against their own instinctive reaction to people who sterilize themselves and kill themselves, you should spend your energy asking why people even want to do this.
Since it's a new thing with no historical precedent, but which is suddenly popular, it's reasonable to conclude that it is the product of a new culture or a new chemical environment, but that it is not really innate to the human condition. People certainly weren't doing this, or thinking about doing it on any scale fifty years ago.
Bullshit. First reference to the term "transgender" in academia? 1965. First use of "transsexual"? 1949.
Just for giggles, google Joseph Lobdell. Transman born in 1829. Or Billy Tipton, born in 1914 and transitioned so completely that almost no-one realised until his postmortem. First recipient of a vaginoplasty surgery? Dora Richter. 1931.
by Vassenor » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:55 pm
Advertisement
Users browsing this forum: A m e n r i a, Autumn Wind, Czechostan, Dimetrodon Empire, Floppa Lovers, Ifreann, Kager South, Lysset, Pale Dawn, Philjia, Platypus Bureaucracy, Tarsonis, The Holy Therns, The Huskar Social Union, Tungstan, Turenia
Advertisement