The Christian Discussion Thread X: Originally there were 15

[Tarsonis]

Well if you can stomach some genuine fundy crazy: http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/thebible.htm

Makes no sense how they bank so much on the fact that it's also known as the "Authorized Version". It was authorized by the King of England, who would probably hate modern fundamentalists with a passion. Big deal.

The rest is basically just saying the 17th century English stirs more emotion, therefore has more truth.

Like I said, fundy crazy

[Stonok]

To lighten the mood, everyone give this song a listen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PAc3krFyQA

Mormons, yes, but the voices are incredible, and Mr. Olsen has the single greatest American male voice I have heard. The song is also very moving. We can argue against the Mormon belief in polytheism or the idea that the Book of Mormon is scripture all day long, but I don't think anyone can deny that, for whatever reason, a great many Mormons have been blessed with incredible voices.

[Salus Maior]

So, considering I've had a New Living Translation Bible for the last decade or so I think it's about time I got a new Bible and maybe a better translation.

Anyone have any recommendations?

Douay-Rheims with Challoner notes is the master race of bible translations.

I'm curious about the DR Bible, heard a lot of traditionally-minded Catholics are a fan of it. Is it pretty easy to understand/accurate translation? I know it's an older translation so I don't know if it'll be like the KJV and be hard to understand.

[Negarakita]

So, considering I've had a New Living Translation Bible for the last decade or so I think it's about time I got a new Bible and maybe a better translation.

Anyone have any recommendations?

Latin Vulgate only

[Kowani]

To lighten the mood, everyone give this song a listen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PAc3krFyQA

Mormons, yes, but the voices are incredible, and Mr. Olsen has the single greatest American male voice I have heard. The song is also very moving. We can argue against the Mormon belief in polytheism or the idea that the Book of Mormon is scripture all day long, but I don't think anyone can deny that, for whatever reason, a great many Mormons have been blessed with incredible voices.

Wait, Mormons are polytheists?

[FelrikTheDeleted]

To lighten the mood, everyone give this song a listen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PAc3krFyQA

Mormons, yes, but the voices are incredible, and Mr. Olsen has the single greatest American male voice I have heard. The song is also very moving. We can argue against the Mormon belief in polytheism or the idea that the Book of Mormon is scripture all day long, but I don't think anyone can deny that, for whatever reason, a great many Mormons have been blessed with incredible voices.

Wait, Mormons are polytheists?

They believe that they can become like Christ as a God (IIRC, from earlier instances where this was discussed).

[Kowani]

Wait, Mormons are polytheists?

They believe that they can become like Christ as a God (IIRC, from earlier instances where this was discussed).

...This hurts my brain. Before I try to unravel that, I assume Mormons don’t have the concept of the Trinity, no?

[FelrikTheDeleted]

They believe that they can become like Christ as a God (IIRC, from earlier instances where this was discussed).

...This hurts my brain. Before I try to unravel that, I assume Mormons don’t have the concept of the Trinity, no?

They do, but they believe that each part of the Trinity is a seperate and distinct being.

[Kowani]

...This hurts my brain. Before I try to unravel that, I assume Mormons don’t have the concept of the Trinity, no?

They do, but they believe that each part of the Trinity is a seperate and distinct being.

While I am no theologian, doesn’t that go against the purpose of the damn Trinity?

[FelrikTheDeleted]

They do, but they believe that each part of the Trinity is a seperate and distinct being.

While I am no theologian, doesn’t that go against the purpose of the damn Trinity?

Perhaps. They believe that while the three beings are physically distinct, in Mormon theology they are one in thoughts, actions, and purpose and commonly referred to collectively as the "Godhead".

[Kowani]

While I am no theologian, doesn’t that go against the purpose of the damn Trinity?

Perhaps. They believe that while the three beings are physically distinct, in Mormon theology they are one in thoughts, actions, and purpose and commonly referred to collectively as the "Godhead".

Huh. So, that session where Jesus pleaded with God to save him, and God was basically “fuck that, you’re on your own”, how does that fit in?

[FelrikTheDeleted]

Perhaps. They believe that while the three beings are physically distinct, in Mormon theology they are one in thoughts, actions, and purpose and commonly referred to collectively as the "Godhead".

Huh. So, that session where Jesus pleaded with God to save him, and God was basically “fuck that, you’re on your own”, how does that fit in?

Fuck if I know, ask a Mormon if you find one.

[Kowani]

Huh. So, that session where Jesus pleaded with God to save him, and God was basically “fuck that, you’re on your own”, how does that fit in?

Fuck if I know, ask a Mormon if you find one.

I know one...but he’s kinda shit at theology. Oh well.

[The Archregimancy]

They do, but they believe that each part of the Trinity is a seperate and distinct being.

While I am no theologian, doesn’t that go against the purpose of the damn Trinity?

Well yes; that's one of the core reasons (but by no means the only one) that many Christians of more traditional denominations dispute whether Mormons are genuinely Christians or not. There have been other non-Trinitarian denominations through time, of course, but the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - which, it should be pointed out, is merely the largest of dozens of LDS groups - seems to take things just that little bit further.

I wish there was a member of the Community of Christ on NSG; they're the second-largest LDS church, and in many ways the more theologically interesting. It would be useful to have their viewpoint represented here.

[The Archregimancy]

Not really. They're basically just protestant fundies who think other protestant fundies aren't conservative enough and latch onto a single issue to distinguish themselves.

Yeah I used to be an anti-kjvist for a long time for similar reasons. Gotta say now that my 400 year anniversary collector’s print is one of my prize possessions

The King James Version: proof that good things can occasionally come out of committees.

1 Corinthians 13 remains my favourite passage in the KJV, though the shift in meaning between the original Greek agape / Latin caritas and the modern English meaning of 'charity' also helps to illustrate why the KJV can present occasional obstacles to a modern audience.

[VW53Aland]

I have voted 'Lutheran or reformed' because I am still a member of the Protestant Church of the Netherlands. However, I haven't been in church for years and would classify myself more as being somewhere between a Christian, a socialist, and a humanist.

[Lord Dominator]

I have voted 'Lutheran or reformed' because I am still a member of the Protestant Church of the Netherlands. However, I haven't been in church for years and would classify myself more as being somewhere between a Christian, a socialist, and a humanist.

Pretty sure only the former and latter are close to being contradictory, so I'm not sure how one can be somewhere between them

[The Archregimancy]

I have voted 'Lutheran or reformed' because I am still a member of the Protestant Church of the Netherlands. However, I haven't been in church for years and would classify myself more as being somewhere between a Christian, a socialist, and a humanist.

Pretty sure only the former and latter are close to being contradictory, so I'm not sure how one can be somewhere between them

Christian humanism is a thing, and has been a thing for centuries. Indeed, one of its more prominent proponents was Dutch, so I see nothing inherently contradictory there for someone who professes to still be a member of the Protestant Church of the Netherlands.

The application of 'humanism' to a non-theistic worldview is a very recent phenomenon.

[VW53Aland]

Well, in a certain way you could say that Jesus was a humanist and/or a socialist. Jesus, humanism and socialism all place human beings above capitalism. For me also, life is about human beings (and all other living things) and not about personal gains, esteem, rank, net worth, income, power, status, etc. All humans were created equal, regardless of their gender, skin color, sexual preference, origin, etc.
I do believe in a God and in the teaching of (among others) Jesus. However, I do not see the Bible as an accurate and factual history book. For instance, I am willing to believe that the creation of the earth did take millions of years and that the seven days mentioned in the Bible are not necessarily to be understood as days as we know them nowadays, consisting of 86400 seconds according to ISO specifications. Darwin and many scientists after him have made very good research which cannot be neglected. Many people within similar denominations though, will hold the number of days mentioned in the Bible for a fact and denounce all evidence against it. Just an example.
So, other hard-line Christians may think I am not a proper Christian. And other socialists may not think of me as a socialist, nor might humanists think of me as a humanist. But I think I am somewhere around those.

[Tarsonis]

Well, in a certain way you could say that Jesus was a humanist and/or a socialist. Jesus, humanism and socialism all place human beings above capitalism. For me also, life is about human beings (and all other living things) and not about personal gains, esteem, rank, net worth, income, power, status, etc. All humans were created equal, regardless of their gender, skin color, sexual preference, origin, etc.
I do believe in a God and in the teaching of (among others) Jesus. However, I do not see the Bible as an accurate and factual history book. For instance, I am willing to believe that the creation of the earth did take millions of years and that the seven days mentioned in the Bible are not necessarily to be understood as days as we know them nowadays, consisting of 86400 seconds according to ISO specifications. Darwin and many scientists after him have made very good research which cannot be neglected. Many people within similar denominations though, will hold the number of days mentioned in the Bible for a fact and denounce all evidence against it. Just an example.
So, other hard-line Christians may think I am not a proper Christian. And other socialists may not think of me as a socialist, nor might humanists think of me as a humanist. But I think I am somewhere around those.

You don’t have to be a literalist to be a Christian. And the stark difference between socialism and Christ’s humanism is socialism is compulsory, where as Christ’s system is more or less voluntary.

[Painisia]

What do you all think of Halloween? Personally, I regard it as a festivity of pagan witchcraft. It has its origins in Irish mythical religions, where it was a day to celebrate the dead. And it is one of the major holidays of the Wicca religion

[Nordengrund]

They believe that they can become like Christ as a God (IIRC, from earlier instances where this was discussed).

...This hurts my brain. Before I try to unravel that, I assume Mormons don’t have the concept of the Trinity, no?

Sorta. I’m no expert on Mormonism, but I think they believe that the Christian God (specifically the Father) was once mortal like us but ascended to Godhood. You could argue they do believe in the Trinity, but define it differently from traditional Christianity. You could compare to the U.S. government where it has three separate branches but there is only one government. So in Mormonism, you’d have three separate individuals working together as as one God.

[Kowani]

What do you all think of Halloween? Personally, I regard it as a festivity of pagan witchcraft. It has its origins in Irish mythical religions, where it was a day to celebrate the dead. And it is one of the major holidays of the Wicca religion

Because no Christian holidays are just pagan ones with a Jesus slapped on top.

[Kowani]

...This hurts my brain. Before I try to unravel that, I assume Mormons don’t have the concept of the Trinity, no?

Sorta. I’m no expert on Mormonism, but I think they believe that the Christian God (specifically the Father) was once mortal like us but ascended to Godhood. You could argue they do believe in the Trinity, but define it differently from traditional Christianity. You could compare to the U.S. government where it has three separate branches but there is only one government. So in Mormonism, you’d have three separate individuals working together as as one God.

So where’d the universe come from?

[Lower Nubia]

Well, in a certain way you could say that Jesus was a humanist and/or a socialist. Jesus, humanism and socialism all place human beings above capitalism. For me also, life is about human beings (and all other living things) and not about personal gains, esteem, rank, net worth, income, power, status, etc. All humans were created equal, regardless of their gender, skin color, sexual preference, origin, etc.
I do believe in a God and in the teaching of (among others) Jesus. However, I do not see the Bible as an accurate and factual history book. For instance, I am willing to believe that the creation of the earth did take millions of years and that the seven days mentioned in the Bible are not necessarily to be understood as days as we know them nowadays, consisting of 86400 seconds according to ISO specifications. Darwin and many scientists after him have made very good research which cannot be neglected. Many people within similar denominations though, will hold the number of days mentioned in the Bible for a fact and denounce all evidence against it. Just an example.
So, other hard-line Christians may think I am not a proper Christian. And other socialists may not think of me as a socialist, nor might humanists think of me as a humanist. But I think I am somewhere around those.

Christ wouldn’t subscribe to the agendas of Socialism or capitalism, socialism was about overthrowing the oppressors (sometimes the Church), and ‘attenpting’ to create a human, emphasis on human, utopia. Capitalism, is not aligned with serving God nor necessarily human (all peoples)interests. If we only see elements of Christian truth in them, can’t we hypothetically say that Christ supported many ideologies simply because they contain that fragment of “truth”? In reality, Christ came to produce a heavenly kingdom, in earthly people (which can have economic consequences) but what is the point of a heavenly kingdom with an earthly modal of producing or distributing currency? The currency is allegiance to God, not quantity or distribution of Gold. All economic systems have to be anachronistically applied to Christ, Christ was a 1st century Jewish carpenter, not John Adams, not Trotsky, nor any political, social or economic theorist.

I think you should reevaluate your position on biblical allegory because it is not necessarily just myth, but an important philosophical framework, in some ways, Genesis simply says that God is ultimate and above creation, demanding unfaltering fealty and allegiance from men, rather than man worshipping the creation. Darwin, and his contmepories most certainly demanded a materialistic framework for their hypothesis (at the time) which is neither necessary to the scientific truth and antagonistic to the faith. The rejection of the underlying naturalistic philosophy is a good thing, but could be contrived as a rejection of the theory itself, which is false. That underlying, unscientific, atheistic philosophy which has been pinned to evolutionary theory can be sheered off, replaced, and dismantled.