Homosexuality and Culture

[San Lumen]

What are our cultural norms exactly? Homosexuality is incompatible with Christian morals, but so is atheism incompatible with Christian beliefs. I wouldn't call atheism incompatible with European/Western culture (I figure that this is "our" culture here?) on that account.

If there is some objective moral code that ought to be followed, then state it and the source for it.
If there is no such thing, then morality is entirely subjective. As such, you can't really take an issue with homosexuality today, for immoral would be only that which is not accepted by society in a given time. Homosexuality is accepted by the Western society nowadays. It is within the cultural norm.

I must unfortunately say that this is rather dishonest. For you use "cultural norms" as a term concealing your real argument, namely that the homosexuality ought to be outside said cultural norm due to the morality, either objective or utilitarian.

I would not say atheism per se is incompatible with western norms/culture, but outspoken atheism is. It's entirely subversive of western norms and culture.

Legislation should therefore be based on the Bible? Since you seem to cite religion regarding homosexuality President Barlett has a few questions for you.

"I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleaned the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be?"
"My chief of staff, Leo McGarry, insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police?"
"Here's one that's really important cause we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7 If they promise to wear gloves can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point?
"Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother, John, for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads?
"Think about those questions, would you?"

[Vassenor]

What are our cultural norms exactly? Homosexuality is incompatible with Christian morals, but so is atheism incompatible with Christian beliefs. I wouldn't call atheism incompatible with European/Western culture (I figure that this is "our" culture here?) on that account.

If there is some objective moral code that ought to be followed, then state it and the source for it.
If there is no such thing, then morality is entirely subjective. As such, you can't really take an issue with homosexuality today, for immoral would be only that which is not accepted by society in a given time. Homosexuality is accepted by the Western society nowadays. It is within the cultural norm.

I must unfortunately say that this is rather dishonest. For you use "cultural norms" as a term concealing your real argument, namely that the homosexuality ought to be outside said cultural norm due to the morality, either objective or utilitarian.

I would not say atheism per se is incompatible with western norms/culture, but outspoken atheism is. It's entirely subversive of western norms and culture.

In what way is not being religious subversive?

[The Empire of Pretantia]

I would not say atheism per se is incompatible with western norms/culture, but outspoken atheism is. It's entirely subversive of western norms and culture.

In what way is not being religious subversive?

Do you not ever stop to think about why somebody thinks something?

[Conserative Morality]

I would not say atheism per se is incompatible with western norms/culture, but outspoken atheism is. It's entirely subversive of western norms and culture.

In what way is not being religious subversive?

It doesn't bow down to the attempt of Christianity to erase Western culture.

[Mardla]

I would not say atheism per se is incompatible with western norms/culture, but outspoken atheism is. It's entirely subversive of western norms and culture.

Legislation should therefore be based on the Bible? Since you seem to cite religion regarding homosexuality President Barlett has a few questions for you.

"I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleaned the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be?"
"My chief of staff, Leo McGarry, insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police?"
"Here's one that's really important cause we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7 If they promise to wear gloves can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point?
"Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother, John, for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads?
"Think about those questions, would you?"

You aware of the Council of Jerusalem?

[San Lumen]

Legislation should therefore be based on the Bible? Since you seem to cite religion regarding homosexuality President Barlett has a few questions for you.

"I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleaned the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be?"
"My chief of staff, Leo McGarry, insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police?"
"Here's one that's really important cause we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7 If they promise to wear gloves can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point?
"Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother, John, for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads?
"Think about those questions, would you?"

You aware of the Council of Jerusalem?

No

[Vassenor]

Legislation should therefore be based on the Bible? Since you seem to cite religion regarding homosexuality President Barlett has a few questions for you.

"I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleaned the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be?"
"My chief of staff, Leo McGarry, insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police?"
"Here's one that's really important cause we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7 If they promise to wear gloves can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point?
"Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother, John, for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads?
"Think about those questions, would you?"

You aware of the Council of Jerusalem?

A lot has changed over the last two millennia. Plus you don't seem to be in any hurry to let go of the "no homo" stuff from Leviticus.

[The Anime Army]

Alan Turing *cough*

[Mardla]

You aware of the Council of Jerusalem?

A lot has changed over the last two millennia. Plus you don't seem to be in any hurry to let go of the "no homo" stuff from Leviticus.

My religious issues with homosexuality stem from the NT rather than the OT

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Alan Turing *cough*

Worth respect because of his contributions to computing, not because he was gay

[Atmovia]

I propose that people who don't like homosexuality should mind their business and stop obsessing about it.

Could not agree more, as a person who is a lesbian IRL, I am of course, supportive of the LGBT+ community, however, I am also open minded about different people's beliefs, if their religion, for example, has them believe that Homesexuality and such is immoral, then it's fine, so long as they are respectful, just as I am respectful of their views. I have a muslim friend, she knows I am gay, and her exact words when I told her were "well, it's not like i'm the one that is gay" - and she made a good point. I and my wife, when we meet up with said friend, do tone down our "gayness" , it's like a "mutual respect" despite differing opinions. I wish that more people would simply be like that.

So, I don't mind if you think that homosexuality is immoral as such, yea, I disagree with you, but I don't tend to argue too much on it, unless you are very hateful and promote hate crime, or worse, participate in it, etc.

On the topic of culture, In my own personal opinion, it really depends - cultures have changed and evolved over millennia, a lot of people may say that homosexuality is not a part of their culture, but if they looked at their history they may be surprised to see that it once was more accepted, and things such as the Pederasty in ancient Greece and also in pre-modern Islam to name a few cultures. =P

[Mardla]

I propose that people who don't like homosexuality should mind their business and stop obsessing about it.

Could not agree more, as a person who is a lesbian IRL, I am of course, supportive of the LGBT+ community, however, I am also open minded about different people's beliefs, if their religion, for example, has them believe that Homesexuality and such is immoral, then it's fine, so long as they are respectful, just as I am respectful of their views. I have a muslim friend, she knows I am gay, and her exact words when I told her were "well, it's not like i'm the one that is gay" - and she made a good point. I and my wife, when we meet up with said friend, do tone down our "gayness" , it's like a "mutual respect" despite differing opinions. I wish that more people would simply be like that.

So, I don't mind if you think that homosexuality is immoral as such, yea, I disagree with you, but I don't tend to argue too much on it, unless you are very hateful and promote hate crime, or worse, participate in it, etc.

On the topic of culture, In my own personal opinion, it really depends - cultures have changed and evolved over millennia, a lot of people may say that homosexuality is not a part of their culture, but if they looked at their history they may be surprised to see that it once was more accepted, and things such as the Pederasty in ancient Greece and also in pre-modern Islam to name a few cultures. =P

But as I noted, Plato said pederasty should be celibate, and Aristotle opposed homosexuality altogether. And when we talk about inheriting Greek culture, it's more guys like that than togas, pan pipes and boylove.

As for pre modern Islam, I don't know a lot about it, but it is true Turks liked boys in their harems

[Vassenor]

A lot has changed over the last two millennia. Plus you don't seem to be in any hurry to let go of the "no homo" stuff from Leviticus.

My religious issues with homosexuality stem from the NT rather than the OT

So when did Jesus explicitly go No Homo?

Given that Paul was quite plainly off his rocker.

[Thanatttynia]

If you squint to see through the homophobia, the OP brings up an interesting conception of homosexual culture as being an anti-culture. Where I don't follow is how you make the jump from that conception to believing that anything subversive or contrarian is grotesque.

Culture thrives on subversion and contrarianism; one of the things that has tragically neutered modern culture has been the neutralisation of formerly subversive and/or contrarian elements that existed within and alongside it in the past. By bringing things like gay culture into the fold of mainstream culture, our overlords have gentrified what used to be an exciting space where new ideas could flourish, turning it into a Hallmark version of itself. This might seem like acceptance, but this isn't an equal exchange, since once that culture was 'accepted,' more radical elements of it were cut off and the mainstream of it forced to soften itself so as to conform with what the majority expected. It's very sad.

[Prydania]

A lot has changed over the last two millennia. Plus you don't seem to be in any hurry to let go of the "no homo" stuff from Leviticus.

My religious issues with homosexuality stem from the NT rather than the OT

Too Jewish, eh?

[Kubumba Tribe]

pre-modern Islam to name a few cultures. =P

Al-Islam doesn't allow for homosexuality.

[Kubumba Tribe]

I would not say atheism per se is incompatible with western norms/culture, but outspoken atheism is. It's entirely subversive of western norms and culture.

Legislation should therefore be based on the Bible?

For Christians, yes.

[Internationalist Bastard]

pre-modern Islam to name a few cultures. =P

Al-Islam doesn't allow for homosexuality.

Maybe they meant pre Islam Arabic culture?

[Internationalist Bastard]

If you squint to see through the homophobia, the OP brings up an interesting conception of homosexual culture as being an anti-culture. Where I don't follow is how you make the jump from that conception to believing that anything subversive or contrarian is grotesque.

Culture thrives on subversion and contrarianism; one of the things that has tragically neutered modern culture has been the neutralisation of formerly subversive and/or contrarian elements that existed within and alongside it in the past. By bringing things like gay culture into the fold of mainstream culture, our overlords have gentrified what used to be an exciting space where new ideas could flourish, turning it into a Hallmark version of itself. This might seem like acceptance, but this isn't an equal exchange, since once that culture was 'accepted,' more radical elements of it were cut off and the mainstream of it forced to soften itself so as to conform with what the majority expected. It's very sad.

I surprising amount of culture comes from counter culture. As time goes on it tends to be integrated more into society

[Kubumba Tribe]

Al-Islam doesn't allow for homosexuality.

Maybe they meant pre Islam Arabic culture?

Hopefully

[Neutraligon]

If you squint to see through the homophobia, the OP brings up an interesting conception of homosexual culture as being an anti-culture. Where I don't follow is how you make the jump from that conception to believing that anything subversive or contrarian is grotesque.

Culture thrives on subversion and contrarianism; one of the things that has tragically neutered modern culture has been the neutralisation of formerly subversive and/or contrarian elements that existed within and alongside it in the past. By bringing things like gay culture into the fold of mainstream culture, our overlords have gentrified what used to be an exciting space where new ideas could flourish, turning it into a Hallmark version of itself. This might seem like acceptance, but this isn't an equal exchange, since once that culture was 'accepted,' more radical elements of it were cut off and the mainstream of it forced to soften itself so as to conform with what the majority expected. It's very sad.

I surprising amount of culture comes from counter culture. As time goes on it tends to be integrated more into society

Just look at how comic books and cartoons have been integrated into our culture.

[Internationalist Bastard]

I surprising amount of culture comes from counter culture. As time goes on it tends to be integrated more into society

Just look at comic books and how they have been integrated into our culture.

Hell modern American culture is almost entirely rooted in counter culture. Our music especially

[The New California Republic]

If you squint to see through the homophobia, the OP brings up an interesting conception of homosexual culture as being an anti-culture. Where I don't follow is how you make the jump from that conception to believing that anything subversive or contrarian is grotesque.

Culture thrives on subversion and contrarianism; one of the things that has tragically neutered modern culture has been the neutralisation of formerly subversive and/or contrarian elements that existed within and alongside it in the past. By bringing things like gay culture into the fold of mainstream culture, our overlords have gentrified what used to be an exciting space where new ideas could flourish, turning it into a Hallmark version of itself. This might seem like acceptance, but this isn't an equal exchange, since once that culture was 'accepted,' more radical elements of it were cut off and the mainstream of it forced to soften itself so as to conform with what the majority expected. It's very sad.

I surprising amount of culture comes from counter culture. As time goes on it tends to be integrated more into society

Yup. Culture is a dialectic.

[The Union of American Territories]

Frankly speaking, homosexuality has not done much to contribute to society. All I have seen from them is lawsuits against bakers and florists. The contributions of a straight couple (building a family, and producing hardworking, future generations, etc.) outweigh anything a gay couple can. A stable family is the building block of a stable society, and the family, with a man and woman to lead their children to be productive members of society, will be the future of a stable and function country and a stable world.

Therefore lgbt people should not be treated equally at a business and should not be able to adopt children?

I'm not saying that. What I am saying, is that a gay couple can't force a private business to go against their religious beliefs. I personally don't believe that a gay couple could ever do the same job as a straight couple, or a normal family. From what I have seen in gay pride parades, I have only seen indecent individuals that think they can do things that should be done in privacy, in public. Not to mention the fact that AIDS is far more prominent in the gay community than in straight couples. I'm not saying that they shouldn't get married, but I don't think that a marriage between two women or two men should be officiated by a minister, but it should be a judge. Gay people should have the same rights as any other American, and their right to do what they want should not be infringed. I may disagree, ON AN EXTREME level with the gays, and their ideas, but as for me and my family, freedom all the way!

[Internationalist Bastard]

Maybe they meant pre Islam Arabic culture?

Hopefully

Well seems I need to add a note
I just looked into it and technically lesbians are fine in Islam, nothing in the Quran and only a few Hadith that obviously vary by sect on legitimacy, says anything about two women