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Delaware bans Conversion Therapy

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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:27 am

Prydania wrote:What if the person in question doesn’t want to have their sexual orientation changed? Is it morally ok to attempt to change it anyway?

The QB of the Seattle Seahawks, Russel Wilson, nearly got in trouble with the law because he claimed that a mineral water he sponsored could cure the effects of a concussion.
Dr. Oz was dragged before the US Senate because they had some questions about his tendency to sell supliments as “miracle drugs.”
I’m pretty sure I would be facing legal issues if I opened a kiosk at the mall and started selling tonic I claimed could cure cancer.

I suppose what I’m saying is that quackery exists in a legal grey area anyway. And I wouldn’t be opposed to banning it across the board.
See, despite your assertions I don’t fear science. I fear the potential for people to abuse science, and I’m opposed to quackery ;)


And if, after years of study and money spent, it turns out it’s just not doable? Not every scientific hypothesis pans out.


The discovery of sharp sticks hasn’t been without incident ;)

Of course we as a species are quite a bit more intelligent and enlightened today compared to when our ancestors first discovered those pointy sticks.
I don’t think I’m out of bounds to suggest that science has a duty to discuss the moral implications of its ventures these days. I’m not saying “ban science!”
I’m just saying it ought to be aware that scientific discovery doesn’t exist in a vacuum, divorced from
implications in the real world.


No, in general not morally okay to do stuff to people they'd rather you didn't.

It's not much of a gray we we have generally defined what people can and cannot say. If you don't like quakery you don't like quakery.

When the hypothesis is as vastly broad as "this thing is, in some way, possible" it would have to take quite a bit of failure and it's not a possibility that should be entertained without better understanding the actual mechanisms involved.

The purpose of the was that point sticks are about as nice as the person wielding them. I have the same issues with governments changing people's sexuality against their will as I do governments stabbing people with sharp sticks, we have discovered that dick governments suck not that we should avoid discovering things.


Thermodolia wrote:Tbh a lot of pride parades have just become another reason to party and are pretty heavily commercialized. Which a few LGBT people hate, they are also the same ones who want to kick straight people from gay bars and shit like that

The stonewall riots which most pride parades commemorate were literally people fighting for their right to party- the right to get shit-faced, meet people, and fuck without interference and throwing bottles at cops for not respecting that right.
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:32 am

Des-Bal wrote:
Prydania wrote:What if the person in question doesn’t want to have their sexual orientation changed? Is it morally ok to attempt to change it anyway?

The QB of the Seattle Seahawks, Russel Wilson, nearly got in trouble with the law because he claimed that a mineral water he sponsored could cure the effects of a concussion.
Dr. Oz was dragged before the US Senate because they had some questions about his tendency to sell supliments as “miracle drugs.”
I’m pretty sure I would be facing legal issues if I opened a kiosk at the mall and started selling tonic I claimed could cure cancer.

I suppose what I’m saying is that quackery exists in a legal grey area anyway. And I wouldn’t be opposed to banning it across the board.
See, despite your assertions I don’t fear science. I fear the potential for people to abuse science, and I’m opposed to quackery ;)


And if, after years of study and money spent, it turns out it’s just not doable? Not every scientific hypothesis pans out.


The discovery of sharp sticks hasn’t been without incident ;)

Of course we as a species are quite a bit more intelligent and enlightened today compared to when our ancestors first discovered those pointy sticks.
I don’t think I’m out of bounds to suggest that science has a duty to discuss the moral implications of its ventures these days. I’m not saying “ban science!”
I’m just saying it ought to be aware that scientific discovery doesn’t exist in a vacuum, divorced from
implications in the real world.


No, in general not morally okay to do stuff to people they'd rather you didn't.

It's not much of a gray we we have generally defined what people can and cannot say. If you don't like quakery you don't like quakery.

When the hypothesis is as vastly broad as "this thing is, in some way, possible" it would have to take quite a bit of failure and it's not a possibility that should be entertained without better understanding the actual mechanisms involved.

The purpose of the was that point sticks are about as nice as the person wielding them. I have the same issues with governments changing people's sexuality against their will as I do governments stabbing people with sharp sticks, we have discovered that dick governments suck not that we should avoid discovering things.


Thermodolia wrote:Tbh a lot of pride parades have just become another reason to party and are pretty heavily commercialized. Which a few LGBT people hate, they are also the same ones who want to kick straight people from gay bars and shit like that

The stonewall riots which most pride parades commemorate were literally people fighting for their right to party- the right to get shit-faced, meet people, and fuck without interference and throwing bottles at cops for not respecting that right.

I think I’m well aware of that fact. Ya know I am gay
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:49 am

Thermodolia wrote:
I think I’m well aware of that fact. Ya know I am gay


And obviously the moment you plugged into the hivemind you understood the history and implications of all significant events in gay history. I am annoyed by people who take issue with Pride events as a source of boisterous enjoyment, the struggle for gay rights is set apart from other civil rights battles because of the dramatic shift after stonewall, the idea that one should not have to blend in or be like everyone else and I can see no better way to celebrate that than by throwing a big flashy party that makes a number of people uncomfortable.
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UnitedCentristRepublic
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Postby UnitedCentristRepublic » Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:52 pm

It may not be a choice and is biological however we should do everything in our power to convert them whether it be medication or therapy and if they still are how they are then we should leave them be. choice or not being gay spreads diseases like HIV and aids and if the person is bi they can spread it to both men and women. It also decreases our population. To be gay is ok but it should not be condoned. Thank you for your time

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MLGDogeland
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Postby MLGDogeland » Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:57 pm

Conversion therapy is an outdated practice.

We are now one step closer to eliminating it worldwide.

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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:58 pm

UnitedCentristRepublic wrote:It may not be a choice and is biological however we should do everything in our power to convert them whether it be medication or therapy and if they still are how they are then we should leave them be. choice or not being gay spreads diseases like HIV and aids and if the person is bi they can spread it to both men and women. It also decreases our population. To be gay is ok but it should not be condoned. Thank you for your time

Being gay does not spread HIV (AIDS and HIV are the same thing, AIDS just being the final stages of active HIV). Provide evidence that being gay decreases the population, particularly since artificial insemination is a thing. Also given that we have kids who age out of the adoptions centers, why is this necessarily a bad thing?
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Zex
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Postby Zex » Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:00 pm

San Lumen wrote:15th state to ban [. . .] conversion therapy
Can I get a list of those 15 states so I can avoid them and only travel to good ones.

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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:02 pm

Zex wrote:
San Lumen wrote:15th state to ban [. . .] conversion therapy
Can I get a list of those 15 states so I can avoid them and only travel to good ones.

Explain why banning conversion therapy for minors makes a state a bad state.
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Zex
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Postby Zex » Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:08 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Zex wrote:Can I get a list of those 15 states so I can avoid them and only travel to good ones.
Explain why banning conversion therapy for minors makes a state a bad state.
You get me that list and I'll let you know.

Neutraligon wrote:
UnitedCentristRepublic wrote:It may not be a choice and is biological however we should do everything in our power to convert them whether it be medication or therapy and if they still are how they are then we should leave them be. choice or not being gay spreads diseases like HIV and aids and if the person is bi they can spread it to both men and women. It also decreases our population. To be gay is ok but it should not be condoned. Thank you for your time

Being gay does not spread HIV (AIDS and HIV are the same thing, AIDS just being the final stages of active HIV). Provide evidence that being gay decreases the population, particularly since artificial insemination is a thing. Also given that we have kids who age out of the adoptions centers, why is this necessarily a bad thing?

Except it's a know fact that HIV/AIDs rates are much higher among the gays.
No clue, I'll let the person you quoted deal with that.
Gays are such a small percentage of the population, implying that they will in any way dent the number of children we have up for adoption is a laughable implication.

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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:25 pm

Zex wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:Explain why banning conversion therapy for minors makes a state a bad state.
You get me that list and I'll let you know.

Neutraligon wrote:Being gay does not spread HIV (AIDS and HIV are the same thing, AIDS just being the final stages of active HIV). Provide evidence that being gay decreases the population, particularly since artificial insemination is a thing. Also given that we have kids who age out of the adoptions centers, why is this necessarily a bad thing?

Except it's a know fact that HIV/AIDs rates are much higher among the gays.
No clue, I'll let the person you quoted deal with that.
Gays are such a small percentage of the population, implying that they will in any way dent the number of children we have up for adoption is a laughable implication.

http://www.letmegooglethat.com/?q=Place ... banned+USA
That would be due to a history of not being monogamous due to society stigmatizing them. Oh and it might be higher among male homosexuals, it is lower among lesbians.
Last edited by Neutraligon on Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Zex
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Postby Zex » Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:50 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Zex wrote:You get me that list and I'll let you know.


Except it's a know fact that HIV/AIDs rates are much higher among the gays.
No clue, I'll let the person you quoted deal with that.
Gays are such a small percentage of the population, implying that they will in any way dent the number of children we have up for adoption is a laughable implication.

http://www.letmegooglethat.com/?q=Place ... banned+USA
That would be due to a history of not being monogamous due to society stigmatizing them. Oh and it might be higher among male homosexuals, it is lower among lesbians.

But that also depends, are we throwing the rest of the letters in? Because trans make gay men look pretty clean in comparison. Anyway.,
Ah, all the usual suspects. Now then, any state that would waste their time with this non-issue will most definitely be a wretched place to be (since they clearly won't be tackling real problems if they waste their time with these "issues").
Last edited by Zex on Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:53 pm

Zex wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:http://www.letmegooglethat.com/?q=Place ... banned+USA
That would be due to a history of not being monogamous due to society stigmatizing them. Oh and it might be higher among male homosexuals, it is lower among lesbians.

But that also depends, are we throwing the rest of the letters in? Because trans make gay men look pretty clean in comparison. Anyway.,
Ah, all the usual suspects. Now then, any state that would waste their time with this non-issue will most definitely be a wretched place to be (since they clearly won't be tackling real problems if they waste their time with these "issues").


You think torture is a non-issue? A huh...got any actual statistics on the trans thing?
Last edited by Neutraligon on Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Benjabobaria
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Postby Benjabobaria » Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:58 pm

Conversion therapy is utter savagery. Good for Delaware.
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Zex
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Postby Zex » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:21 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Zex wrote:But that also depends, are we throwing the rest of the letters in? Because trans make gay men look pretty clean in comparison. Anyway.,
Ah, all the usual suspects. Now then, any state that would waste their time with this non-issue will most definitely be a wretched place to be (since they clearly won't be tackling real problems if they waste their time with these "issues").

You think torture is a non-issue? A huh...got any actual statistics on the trans thing?

Ya, it's in that (bi-)yearly report put out by medical professionals within' the USA.
They have a section just for trans and they talk about heightened issues for those people.
You're good with that there google-fu, I know you'll find it eventually.

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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:21 pm

Zex wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:You think torture is a non-issue? A huh...got any actual statistics on the trans thing?

Ya, it's in that (bi-)yearly report put out by medical professionals within' the USA.
They have a section just for trans and they talk about heightened issues for those people.
You're good with that there google-fu, I know you'll find it eventually.


Oh so you aren't willing to list your own sources? There are indeed medical issues for trans people, namely suicide...ever wonder why?
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Zex
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Postby Zex » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:37 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Zex wrote:Ya, it's in that (bi-)yearly report put out by medical professionals within' the USA.
They have a section just for trans and they talk about heightened issues for those people.
You're good with that there google-fu, I know you'll find it eventually.


Oh so you aren't willing to list your own sources? There are indeed medical issues for trans people, namely suicide...ever wonder why?

Mental instability/illness, that would be my guess.

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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:43 pm

Zex wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:
Oh so you aren't willing to list your own sources? There are indeed medical issues for trans people, namely suicide...ever wonder why?

Mental instability/illness, that would be my guess.

No, outside sources are a rather big cause (discrimination). Another is of course being unable to transition due to various reasons, some external(no places willing to do the surgery/medical intervention) and some internal (lack of money). Please link your source I was unable to find it based on your description.
Last edited by Neutraligon on Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:45 pm

Zex wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:http://www.letmegooglethat.com/?q=Place ... banned+USA
That would be due to a history of not being monogamous due to society stigmatizing them. Oh and it might be higher among male homosexuals, it is lower among lesbians.

But that also depends, are we throwing the rest of the letters in? Because trans make gay men look pretty clean in comparison. Anyway.,
Ah, all the usual suspects. Now then, any state that would waste their time with this non-issue will most definitely be a wretched place to be (since they clearly won't be tackling real problems if they waste their time with these "issues").


I think I've become dumber after reading this tripe. Holy fuck.
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:46 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Zex wrote:But that also depends, are we throwing the rest of the letters in? Because trans make gay men look pretty clean in comparison. Anyway.,
Ah, all the usual suspects. Now then, any state that would waste their time with this non-issue will most definitely be a wretched place to be (since they clearly won't be tackling real problems if they waste their time with these "issues").


I think I've become dumber after reading this tripe. Holy fuck.

I love how they are ignoring my question of if torture is a minor issue.
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Zex
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Postby Zex » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:58 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Zex wrote:Mental instability/illness, that would be my guess.

No, outside sources are a rather big cause (discrimination). Another is of course being unable to transition due to various reasons, some external(no places willing to do the surgery/medical intervention) and some internal (lack of money). Please link your source I was unable to find it based on your description.
Makes yet another claim without a source, demands sources yet again. You get what you give, friend.
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Zex wrote:But that also depends, are we throwing the rest of the letters in? Because trans make gay men look pretty clean in comparison. Anyway.,
Ah, all the usual suspects. Now then, any state that would waste their time with this non-issue will most definitely be a wretched place to be (since they clearly won't be tackling real problems if they waste their time with these "issues").


I think I've become dumber after reading this tripe. Holy fuck.
I guess, one could say, you are what you read XD.

P.S., ~ no reason in addressing something that's clearly incorrect.

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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:02 pm

Zex wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:No, outside sources are a rather big cause (discrimination). Another is of course being unable to transition due to various reasons, some external(no places willing to do the surgery/medical intervention) and some internal (lack of money). Please link your source I was unable to find it based on your description.
Makes yet another claim without a source, demands sources yet again. You get what you give, friend.
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
I think I've become dumber after reading this tripe. Holy fuck.
I guess, one could say, you are what you read XD.

P.S., ~ no reason in addressing something that's clearly incorrect.


Oh what was the first claim I made without a source. Also you have yet to provide any actual source while with the one below I have provided two, one of which could easily have been looked up. Here you go for the discrimination one https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/
The source you described to me meanwhile cannot easily be looked up since there are a ton of different studies in the USA about various health things released at various different times.

Now you actually going to list your source and continue to ignore the question on torture?
Last edited by Neutraligon on Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Zex
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Postby Zex » Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:58 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Zex wrote:Makes yet another claim without a source, demands sources yet again. You get what you give, friend.I guess, one could say, you are what you read XD.

P.S., ~ no reason in addressing something that's clearly incorrect.


Oh what was the first claim I made without a source. Also you have yet to provide any actual source while with the one below I have provided two, one of which could easily have been looked up. Here you go for the discrimination one https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/
The source you described to me meanwhile cannot easily be looked up since there are a ton of different studies in the USA about various health things released at various different times.

Now you actually going to list your source and continue to ignore the question on torture?

Skimming over your source, I'm already spotting things I suspect will be an issue. For instance- trying to tie discrimination of trans in indian, Japan, eastern Europe, and 'Murica. That and I suspect the number of people actually questioned (who are trans) is going to be underwhelming.

Being a phone posting little shit, I won't be able to give you a source till I get on my desktop. Though, it is quite difficult to track down. If you start harassing the tans topic, eventually someone there will post it (that's how I got ahold of it). If I can't find it myself, I'll have to hit them up.

Well, clearly, me and 35 different states disagree that it's an issue. Hell, even the states that might care only started in 2016. Hit me up in a decade, assuming these bans haven't been overturned by law or the courts.

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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:02 pm

Zex wrote:
San Lumen wrote:15th state to ban [. . .] conversion therapy
Can I get a list of those 15 states so I can avoid them and only travel to good ones.

1. California is a good state with a ban.
2. Don't worry. The conversion therapy bans don't do much anyways.
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Prydania
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Postby Prydania » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:06 pm

Zex wrote:Being a phone posting little shit

Well it's nice to see a degree of self-awareness from you.

If I may ask, o lord of edges, why gay people standing up for their rights bothers you so much? I'm assuming your straight, in which case conversion therapy will never be something you ever have to encounter.
So if it's a complete non-issue in your life then why are you so pissed off at the fact that LGBT folks' lives have been made better?

Or are you just one of those people who adopts a homophobic stance because he (and it's always a he) thinks it'll "own the libs"?
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Postby Telconi » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:07 pm

Geneviev wrote:
Zex wrote:Can I get a list of those 15 states so I can avoid them and only travel to good ones.

1. California is a good state with a ban.
2. Don't worry. The conversion therapy bans don't do much anyways.


1. Negatory.
2. Well, like, hopefully they would put a stop to people being forced to undergo conversion therapy.
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