Puerto Rico and the UN

[Union of Socialist Alpine Republics]

Better solution, PR becomes America's 51st state, with all the benefits that comes with being a state.

Being independent has more benefits than being subordinated to another nation. When a nation is independent, they can make their own laws rather than another nation making laws for them, they can collect their own taxes rather than the other nation collecting them, and they can make their own treaty themselves rather than having another nation negociate for them.

And then there's the language and culture issue. Does Puerto Ricans want to lose their hispanic culture in favor of the american culture? Do they want to lose their language in favor of English? I believe the answer is no.

The same arguments applies to Québec, Catalunya and Scotland. Scotland lost their language (scottish gaelic) during all those years of subordination to England.

[Post War America]

Better solution, PR becomes America's 51st state, with all the benefits that comes with being a state.

Being independent has more benefits than being subordinated to another nation. When a nation is independent, they can make their own laws rather than another nation making laws for them, they can collect their own taxes rather than the other nation collecting them, and they can make their own treaty themselves rather than having another nation negociate for them.

And then there's the language and culture issue. Does Puerto Ricans want to lose their hispanic culture in favor of the american culture? Do they want to lose their language in favor of English? I believe the answer is no.

The same arguments applies to Québec, Catalunya and Scotland. Scotland lost their language (scottish gaelic) during all those years of subordination to England.

Alternatively, the inclusion of Puerto Rico as a state would do much to shut English only types and other anti-Hispanic people up. Especially since Hispanic and Spanish-Speaking culture is actually on the ascendancy in the US.

[Tahar Joblis]

Yes, and they're still not smart enough for it to work. Ballot initiatives, referendums etc etc are awful.

It isn't that people are dumb. It is that the questions are too simple, leave no room for negotiations.

For example, on the Brexit, there are at least 3 positions, stay in, no matter what, leave no matter what, or leave if certain conditions aren't met. The conditional leave is probably the best option for the UK, because they would not be committed to leave. This option was not on the referendum. The vote was also, once in a life time, so the only chance to be free of the EU, so the voters would be forced to make a decision.

Also, referendums tend to be simple majorities, even though they deal with big constitutional issues. Especially when talking about abolishing a monarchy, territorial changes or independence, a super majority should be needed. These things being irreversible and essentially major constitutional amendments.

Also, considering that a 4% difference is a small polling error, and such a small difference could be caused by voter suppression, voter fraud, or people staying home, or wording of the question. You could probably even get a different poll result for a close referendum just by varying the day.

When you have referendums, it is very important that the referendum has basically clear yes or no option.

When you have three or more options in a referendum, you often don't end up with a popular mandate for any action.

In the case of Puerto Rico, the basic problem is this:

By the moral and ethical standards of governance endorsed by the UN - and also by the United States itself - Puerto Rico must either become a state or become independent. Two simple options.

A significant number of Puerto Ricans, unlike pretty much everybody else everywhere, don't want either of those two options, and that really creates a problem.

[Tahar Joblis]

Better solution, PR becomes America's 51st state, with all the benefits that comes with being a state.

Being independent has more benefits than being subordinated to another nation. When a nation is independent, they can make their own laws rather than another nation making laws for them, they can collect their own taxes rather than the other nation collecting them, and they can make their own treaty themselves rather than having another nation negociate for them.

And then there's the language and culture issue. Does Puerto Ricans want to lose their hispanic culture in favor of the american culture? Do they want to lose their language in favor of English? I believe the answer is no.

The same arguments applies to Québec, Catalunya and Scotland. Scotland lost their language (scottish gaelic) during all those years of subordination to England.

One of the key issues that has happened because a lot of Puerto Ricans have not learned English is that the elite class in Puerto Rico - who generally know both English and Spanish - have been able to very successfully capitalize on the language difference to play both sides against the middle.

One thing that I've learned here on NSG in threads on Puerto Rico is that a lot of Puerto Ricans have grievances against the federal government that ultimately are grievances against Puerto Rican politicians - Puerto Rican politicians are very successful at shifting the blame for their own misbehavior onto the federal government.

One of the standard historical complaints is the "gag law." What happened was that the ruling PPD decided to stamp out their political rivals in the independence movement. The role of the federal government was largely limited to providing backing to the local government, and it was the PPD in charge of the local government that decided to write and pass the infamous "gag law" and other measures designed to suppress the independence movement. Puerto Rican sources are careful to emphasize that the governor who signed the law was appointed by the federal government - that governor having been a native Puerto Rican, one of the founding members of the PPD, and appointed by Truman in an effort to allow more local autonomy as an intermediate step towards allowing Puerto Ricans to simply elect their own governors.

The "gag law" was written, passed, and signed by Puerto Ricans. Most people in Congress probably weren't even aware of the law's existence until Puerto Rican nationalists tried to assassinate Truman. Truman, who unquestionably just wanted the Puerto Ricans to figure out for themselves what political status they wanted.

[Itaull]

It isn't that people are dumb. It is that the questions are too simple, leave no room for negotiations.

For example, on the Brexit, there are at least 3 positions, stay in, no matter what, leave no matter what, or leave if certain conditions aren't met. The conditional leave is probably the best option for the UK, because they would not be committed to leave. This option was not on the referendum. The vote was also, once in a life time, so the only chance to be free of the EU, so the voters would be forced to make a decision.

Also, referendums tend to be simple majorities, even though they deal with big constitutional issues. Especially when talking about abolishing a monarchy, territorial changes or independence, a super majority should be needed. These things being irreversible and essentially major constitutional amendments.

Also, considering that a 4% difference is a small polling error, and such a small difference could be caused by voter suppression, voter fraud, or people staying home, or wording of the question. You could probably even get a different poll result for a close referendum just by varying the day.

When you have referendums, it is very important that the referendum has basically clear yes or no option.

When you have three or more options in a referendum, you often don't end up with a popular mandate for any action.

In the case of Puerto Rico, the basic problem is this:

By the moral and ethical standards of governance endorsed by the UN - and also by the United States itself - Puerto Rico must either become a state or become independent. Two simple options.

A significant number of Puerto Ricans, unlike pretty much everybody else everywhere, don't want either of those two options, and that really creates a problem.

I understand that referendums need only two clear options, my point, is that limits the solution to two options, often do x or do nothing. Basically the best referendum is giving the people Hobson's choice.

Really referendums should be limited to confirming already settled policy. In this case, the PR government should negotiate the terms of independence, and then let the people vote on it.

I am not sure the varying opinions about PR outside PR matter. The UN's doesn't matter. It is a bit annoying when people accuse the US of oppressing PR, when the US is neglectful. But that is not a big problem.

[Gim]

Better solution, PR becomes America's 51st state, with all the benefits that comes with being a state.

This. They should be made a state

We can't force that, though.

[Itaull]

This. They should be made a state

We can't force that, though.

Forget about forcing it, what are the benefits of being a state? And do they outweigh the benefits of being a Commonwealth?

A commonwealth is potentially the best compromise. Where PR has its independence and receives the benefits of being part of the US. If it was independent, it would be harder to immigrate to the US, but it would still be a poor country with a bad government and a lot of debt. If it was a state, people could influence US politics, but might have to pay more taxes, abide by US laws, and still be a poor place with a bad government and a lot of debt.

I am not sure how different the US laws are than the PR ones, so that is a big question. I imagine there are a lot of laws that PR still has to abide by when it comes to civil rights etc.

In theory there are also a lot of intermediate steps to becoming a state, or independent that could be taken. For example, PR could mint its own currency. It could also receive some substantial voice in the Federal government (through an amendment) without being a state.

[Unstoppable Empire of Doom]

I like how many of the people commenting have an incredibly simplified view of why the Spanish American war occurred.

[Itaull]

I like how many of the people commenting have an incredibly simplified view of why the Spanish American war occurred.

Not only simplified, but ignorant. I think many people make the mistake of viewing history from the view of knowing what happened, and assuming that since the US won and gained control over Puerto Rico, that was the reason they went to war.

The main reason was to kick Spain out of the western hemisphere and free Cuba. Roosevelt as Secretary of the Navy had made it possible that the US could attack the Philippines, but I bet a lot of people were surprised that it wound up in US hands.

I found it interesting in school, that there was a lot of focus on the yellow journalism, but no real answer to why Cuba was made independent but the Philippines and Puerto Rico were kept. I do know the Philippines were very controversial at the time, and am pretty sure the conquest of PR hardly justifies a war.

[Pasong Tirad]

I like how many of the people commenting have an incredibly simplified view of why the Spanish American war occurred.

Not only simplified, but ignorant. I think many people make the mistake of viewing history from the view of knowing what happened, and assuming that since the US won and gained control over Puerto Rico, that was the reason they went to war.

The main reason was to kick Spain out of the western hemisphere and free Cuba. Roosevelt as Secretary of the Navy had made it possible that the US could attack the Philippines, but I bet a lot of people were surprised that it wound up in US hands.

I found it interesting in school, that there was a lot of focus on the yellow journalism, but no real answer to why Cuba was made independent but the Philippines and Puerto Rico were kept. I do know the Philippines were very controversial at the time, and am pretty sure the conquest of PR hardly justifies a war.

The Teller Amendment made it illegal for the US to annex Cuba (but not to turn it into what was basically an American protectorate). No such law or resolution was made for any of the other Spanish possessions. Cuba was at the heart of American attention when talking about Spain. The Philippines, Puerto Rico, and Guam didn't take up as much of the American discussion.

The idea that America wanted to safeguard the freedom of Cuba should be taken with a grain of salt when you consider the three other major Spanish possessions that America didn't release (one of them even already declared independence, wrote a constitution, and formed a government that America basically refused to recognize despite earlier overtures suggesting otherwise).

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

2. That's about the US, not democracy in general. Note that here in the UK we have a slightly more intelligent government and electorate.

Remember "What is Brexit" ?

Hence "slightly" as opposed to "massively"

[Gaine Moon]

2. That's about the US, not democracy in general. Note that here in the UK we have a slightly more intelligent government and electorate.

Remember "What is Brexit" ?

And so your point is...?
The British people voted (regardless of my opinions on Brexit), and because it didn't go your way you are saying the voters are somehow stupid.

[Gaine Moon]

Being independent has more benefits than being subordinated to another nation. When a nation is independent, they can make their own laws rather than another nation making laws for them, they can collect their own taxes rather than the other nation collecting them, and they can make their own treaty themselves rather than having another nation negociate for them.

And then there's the language and culture issue. Does Puerto Ricans want to lose their hispanic culture in favor of the american culture? Do they want to lose their language in favor of English? I believe the answer is no.

The same arguments applies to Québec, Catalunya and Scotland. Scotland lost their language (scottish gaelic) during all those years of subordination to England.

Alternatively, the inclusion of Puerto Rico as a state would do much to shut English only types and other anti-Hispanic people up. Especially since Hispanic and Spanish-Speaking culture is actually on the ascendancy in the US.

The USA simply has no reason to rule over Puerto Rico. Also, as one of the many people who believes that the official language should be English, I fail to see how adding another state, with mountains of debt, will have a positive impact.

[Greater Miami Shores]

Rio Cana my friend, I support Puerto Rican Independence, let them join all the Hispanic Latin American unions they can, Viva Puerto Rico Libre.

The people don’t dude. They like being Americans

Thermy my friend, let me be more clear on my post, I support Puerto Rican Independence, let them join all the Hispanic Latin American unions they can, but as long as Puerto Ricans vote majority or plurality for being Americans as a US territory I have no problems with it, but I will not support Puerto Rico as a US state, just like I dont support Cuba as a US state, I could support Cuba as a Province of España La Madre Patria, as Cuba the ever faithful isle, and Puerto Rico too, Viva España La Madre Patria.

[Thermodolia]

Better solution, PR becomes America's 51st state, with all the benefits that comes with being a state.

Being independent has more benefits than being subordinated to another nation. When a nation is independent, they can make their own laws rather than another nation making laws for them, they can collect their own taxes rather than the other nation collecting them, and they can make their own treaty themselves rather than having another nation negociate for them.

In the US states have the power to make their own laws, taxes, collect said taxes, and other regulations. Currently Puerto Rico is allowed to make its own laws, taxes, and collect said taxes. The US isn’t like France or the UK, it is a federal state not a unitary one.

And then there's the language and culture issue. Does Puerto Ricans want to lose their hispanic culture in favor of the american culture? Do they want to lose their language in favor of English? I believe the answer is no.

The fact that they have had two referendums what changing their status and both times becoming a state won, I don’t think they care.

The same arguments applies to Québec, Catalunya and Scotland. Scotland lost their language (scottish gaelic) during all those years of subordination to England.

There’s a major difference between PR and Scotland. For one PR doesn’t want independence, two in the US there is no official language. Meaning that they can legally speak Spanish, just like those in Louisiana can legally speak French.

[Thermodolia]

This. They should be made a state

We can't force that, though.

We’ve done it before, we can do it again

[Gaine Moon]

For one PR doesn’t want independence

Neither does Scotland.

[Thermodolia]

Alternatively, the inclusion of Puerto Rico as a state would do much to shut English only types and other anti-Hispanic people up. Especially since Hispanic and Spanish-Speaking culture is actually on the ascendancy in the US.

The USA simply has no reason to rule over Puerto Rico. Also, as one of the many people who believes that the official language should be English, I fail to see how adding another state, with mountains of debt, will have a positive impact.

PR has less debt than California and Illinois

[Thermodolia]

For one PR doesn’t want independence

Neither does Scotland.

Well there’s a more vocal section of independence in Scotland than in PR. Support for Independence in PR has never been more than around 10% while in Scotland it has been close to 50% or more at times.

[Post War America]

Alternatively, the inclusion of Puerto Rico as a state would do much to shut English only types and other anti-Hispanic people up. Especially since Hispanic and Spanish-Speaking culture is actually on the ascendancy in the US.

The USA simply has no reason to rule over Puerto Rico. Also, as one of the many people who believes that the official language should be English, I fail to see how adding another state, with mountains of debt, will have a positive impact.

The US has ruled over Puerto Rico for over a century. Its inclusion as a state would only mean that Puerto Rico has a say in how the US rules over it. I fail to see how mountains of debt, which have pretty much only be accrued as a result of Puerto Rico's status as a United States territory, have anything to do with whether or not English should be an official language.

[Thermodolia]

The USA simply has no reason to rule over Puerto Rico. Also, as one of the many people who believes that the official language should be English, I fail to see how adding another state, with mountains of debt, will have a positive impact.

The US has ruled over Puerto Rico for over a century. Its inclusion as a state would only mean that Puerto Rico has a say in how the US rules over it. I fail to see how mountains of debt, which have pretty much only be accrued as a result of Puerto Rico's status as a United States territory, have anything to do with whether or not English should be an official language.

Not to mention that Illinois has more debt than Puerto Rico

[Post War America]

The US has ruled over Puerto Rico for over a century. Its inclusion as a state would only mean that Puerto Rico has a say in how the US rules over it. I fail to see how mountains of debt, which have pretty much only be accrued as a result of Puerto Rico's status as a United States territory, have anything to do with whether or not English should be an official language.

Not to mention that Illinois has more debt than Puerto Rico

Methinks that PR probably has a higher debt to gdp ratio tho. That being said "Puerto Rico has debt therefore they should remain a territory" is still a stupid argument.

[Thermodolia]

Not to mention that Illinois has more debt than Puerto Rico

Methinks that PR probably has a higher debt to gdp ratio tho. That being said "Puerto Rico has debt therefore they should remain a territory" is still a stupid argument.

I agree. Illinois is almost broke yet they are still a state. If Illinois can be a state than so can PR

[San Marlindo]

Better solution, PR becomes America's 51st state, with all the benefits that comes with being a state.

Being independent has more benefits than being subordinated to another nation. When a nation is independent, they can make their own laws rather than another nation making laws for them, they can collect their own taxes rather than the other nation collecting them, and they can make their own treaty themselves rather than having another nation negociate for them.

And then there's the language and culture issue. Does Puerto Ricans want to lose their hispanic culture in favor of the american culture? Do they want to lose their language in favor of English? I believe the answer is no.

The same arguments applies to Québec, Catalunya and Scotland. Scotland lost their language (scottish gaelic) during all those years of subordination to England.

They would also lose millions in subsidies from the US government.

Quebec is still very much bilingual, BTW.

[Post War America]

Being independent has more benefits than being subordinated to another nation. When a nation is independent, they can make their own laws rather than another nation making laws for them, they can collect their own taxes rather than the other nation collecting them, and they can make their own treaty themselves rather than having another nation negociate for them.

And then there's the language and culture issue. Does Puerto Ricans want to lose their hispanic culture in favor of the american culture? Do they want to lose their language in favor of English? I believe the answer is no.

The same arguments applies to Québec, Catalunya and Scotland. Scotland lost their language (scottish gaelic) during all those years of subordination to England.

They would also lose millions in subsidies from the US government.

Quebec is still very much bilingual, BTW.

In some parts of Quebec on could even say that they're an actively French only aimed society.