10 dead in Santa Fe High Shooting in Santa Fe, Tx

[Bombadil]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44186989

He left selected people alive to tell his story.

Authorities said he exchanged gunfire with police before surrendering.

The gun battle went on for about 15 minutes before Mr Pagourtzis gave himself up, abandoning a plan to take his own life, the New York Times reported.

Police now say that eight students and two teachers were killed, with 13 people wounded in the attack, including one of the school's policemen who is in critical condition.

..yet arming teachers is the solution apparently..

I also don't fully trust those Bloomberg numbers, I think if any of those measures was to be enacted you'd see the numbers rapidly change.

[Gig em Aggies]

Evidence that your opinions are superior? I don't think we'll ever find any.

There is evidence that mass shootings are heavily decreased when gun control measures are enacted, as with Australia. I don't know exactly what measures Tobleste is in favor of, though, and regardless, it would be unconstitutional to ban guns or certain types of guns in the United States.

Again with the Australian gun laws I've seen Australia thrown around so much I might have to find a spicy meme. First off nothing in Australia would work in the US due to population and culture overall gun control people think taking guns away will be the magic fairy wand to stop all mass shootings in schools but they forget or refuse to accept that it's really mental instabilities caused by social isolation and bullying in person and on social media platforms that are the real causes of things like this. First tell asshole kids to stop treating each other like shit then they'll see that a lot of people willing to commit these atrocities will go down and I won't have to hear another crying idiot on TV say "I don't know why he would do such a thing" or "what made him do this horrible thing"

[Bombadil]

There is evidence that mass shootings are heavily decreased when gun control measures are enacted, as with Australia. I don't know exactly what measures Tobleste is in favor of, though, and regardless, it would be unconstitutional to ban guns or certain types of guns in the United States.

Again with the Australian gun laws I've seen Australia thrown around so much I might have to find a spicy meme. First off nothing in Australia would work in the US due to population and culture overall gun control people think taking guns away will be the magic fairy wand to stop all mass shootings in schools but they forget or refuse to accept that it's really mental instabilities caused by social isolation and bullying in person and on social media platforms that are the real causes of things like this. First tell asshole kids to stop treating each other like shit then they'll see that a lot of people willing to commit these atrocities will go down and I won't have to hear another crying idiot on TV say "I don't know why he would do such a thing" or "what made him do this horrible thing"

Again I see no evidence this guy was bullied or particularly isolated. That in itself seems to be some growing meme that allows for a 'do nothing' policy especially when the people who say it tend to be the same people happy with defunding healthcare.

[Cekoviu]

There is evidence that mass shootings are heavily decreased when gun control measures are enacted, as with Australia. I don't know exactly what measures Tobleste is in favor of, though, and regardless, it would be unconstitutional to ban guns or certain types of guns in the United States.

Again with the Australian gun laws I've seen Australia thrown around so much I might have to find a spicy meme. First off nothing in Australia would work in the US due to population and culture overall gun control people think taking guns away will be the magic fairy wand to stop all mass shootings in schools but they forget or refuse to accept that it's really mental instabilities caused by social isolation and bullying in person and on social media platforms that are the real causes of things like this. First tell asshole kids to stop treating each other like shit then they'll see that a lot of people willing to commit these atrocities will go down and I won't have to hear another crying idiot on TV say "I don't know why he would do such a thing" or "what made him do this horrible thing"

That's irrelevant to my point, which is that it's evidence that gun control works to reduce gun violence. Whether gun control would be able to be implemented was briefly touched upon in my post, but is a separate problem.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Again with the Australian gun laws I've seen Australia thrown around so much I might have to find a spicy meme. First off nothing in Australia would work in the US due to population and culture overall gun control people think taking guns away will be the magic fairy wand to stop all mass shootings in schools but they forget or refuse to accept that it's really mental instabilities caused by social isolation and bullying in person and on social media platforms that are the real causes of things like this. First tell asshole kids to stop treating each other like shit then they'll see that a lot of people willing to commit these atrocities will go down and I won't have to hear another crying idiot on TV say "I don't know why he would do such a thing" or "what made him do this horrible thing"

That's irrelevant to my point, which is that it's evidence that gun control works to reduce gun violence. Whether gun control would be able to be implemented was briefly touched upon in my post, but is a separate problem.

We had greater drops in gun crime than Australia after they passed their NFA. While you might be able to make the claim that gun control reduces gun related spree killings it's not exactly a set in stone thing that it reduces gun crime at a greater rate than other things.

[Cekoviu]

That's irrelevant to my point, which is that it's evidence that gun control works to reduce gun violence. Whether gun control would be able to be implemented was briefly touched upon in my post, but is a separate problem.

We had greater drops in gun crime than Australia after they passed their NFA. While you might be able to make the claim that gun control reduces gun related spree killings it's not exactly a set in stone thing that it reduces gun crime at a greater rate than other things.

Sure, but still, it does cause a drop without totally banning automatic and semi-automatic rifles. Most of the other stuff they have done that could affect gun crime should be adopted by the US anyway, while gun restrictions to the point of Australia's probably aren't possible.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Screw off.

*hugs anyway*

I want a hug.

[Geneviev]

*hugs anyway*

I want a hug.

[Telconi]

*hugs anyway*

I want a hug.

Not from Fart you don't...

[Kramanica]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44186989

He left selected people alive to tell his story.

Authorities said he exchanged gunfire with police before surrendering.

The gun battle went on for about 15 minutes before Mr Pagourtzis gave himself up, abandoning a plan to take his own life, the New York Times reported.

Police now say that eight students and two teachers were killed, with 13 people wounded in the attack, including one of the school's policemen who is in critical condition.

..yet arming teachers is the solution apparently..

I also don't fully trust those Bloomberg numbers, I think if any of those measures was to be enacted you'd see the numbers rapidly change.

What would you say is the solution? He didn't use any "assault weapons" (if anyone here seriously thinks pistols and shotguns are assault weapons, then that proves how meaningless that term is) and he obtained these weapons illegally (stole them from his father) so what is your solution?

[Great Minarchistan]

There is evidence that mass shootings are heavily decreased when gun control measures are enacted, as with Australia.

Which are statistically irrelevant anyways. Overall gun homicide trend was unchanged after the buybacks.

[Mystic Warriors]

*hugs anyway*

I want a hug.

[Zyr and Pony]

Just a reminder for all those people who say that the second amendment shall not be infringed, as the end all and be all on the gun control debate or that any new gun control would violate your rights and/or freedoms:

"Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms."

So, yes, gun control is constitutional, as is expanding it in certain areas, so long as they do not go too far. The SCOTUS, the final legal authority on the constitution, does not see gun control as a violation of your rights (and the majority ruling I'm quoting from was written by Scalia et al., IE, the conservative side of the court, and has never been superseded).

As to those saying that we should arm teachers, three questions:

1. What's to keep a teacher who has snapped from drawing their gun and shooting at their kids? I had teachers snap on me multiple times when I was a student, and I have no doubt that if one of them had a gun, s/he would have used it.

2. How are the police (or, hell, anyone else) going to differentiate the shooter from someone (who presumably has no uniform) who's using a gun to protect students and others from said gunman? Telepathy? Precognition? Uniforms for teachers (at which point, why not just steal one of said uniforms? It would give a lot of free reign for a time)?

3. Presuming the teacher learned of the shooting and had time to draw their gun before the shooter got to them, what would prevent said teacher from shooting someone fleeing from the shooter into their classroom, on the assumption that they are the shooter? A shooting is a chaotic, high stress situation, and you're liable to be running on adrenaline and instinct. Also, in an active shooter situation, you need to act quickly or risk getting shot yourself, as I doubt the gunman would just wait a second or two to give you a chance to spot the gun in his hands before shooting him. They're just going to shoot the other person with the gun (or the tall, standing, adult looking person if they even think they're armed) ASAP to ensure that they can continue their rampage without getting shot themselves, so the teacher would need to act quickly, meaning there is always that chance of some unlucky innocent being shot due to mistaken identity.

This issue is near and dear to me. My mom works at a middle school, and every school day I dread getting that phone call. The one that goes "Hello? Mr. Brock? I'm sorry to say that your mother was killed in a shooting at [REDACTED] Middle School." I've already lost one parent to murder, I don't want to lose the other in a fit of senseless violence.

BTW, on the subject of school shootings and what to do during them, I remember in college, being shown a video of what to do. The advice given was, if you hear the gunshots nearby, lock the door and barricade it, sheltering in place. Safest thing you can do. If you can't, peek out the door, and if you don't see anyone suspicious, evacuate the whole classroom quickly, staying together and head out of the school. If you do, follow the advice for hearing gunshots. If you're outside, head off campus as quickly as possible, if feasible. If not, shelter somewhere out of sight, like a bathroom stall. None of these plans of action lend themselves to shooting the gunman in any event.

In other news, Texas's lt. governor says that schools having too many entrances may make things worse. I would think it would reduce the bloodshed if people can evacuate from more entrances, since that increases the chance that there is one nearby.

[Licana]

Just a reminder for all those people who say that the second amendment shall not be infringed, as the end all and be all on the gun control debate or that any new gun control would violate your rights and/or freedoms:

"Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms."

So, yes, gun control is constitutional, as is expanding it in certain areas, so long as they do not go too far. The SCOTUS, the final legal authority on the constitution, does not see gun control as a violation of your rights (and the majority ruling I'm quoting from was written by Scalia et al., IE, the conservative side of the court, and has never been superseded).

Yes, and the measures constantly brought out by gun control advocates to "fix" these issues are, near-universally, wholesale bans on what would constitute an extremely large amount of the firearms in America. When your "imposed condition" is "no one is allowed to purchase them," you're stepping right into "infringe" territory.

1. What's to keep a teacher who has snapped from drawing their gun and shooting at their kids? I had teachers snap on me multiple times when I was a student, and I have no doubt that if one of them had a gun, s/he would have used it.

Presumably the same thing that already keeps CCW certified teachers from shooting their students, and the same thing that keeps uniformed security from shooting the students of the schools that make use of them. Remember, no one is advocating for "just give all the teachers a gun and a pat on the back, no questions asked." Every serious proposal about "arming" teachers is simply allowing already CCW certified teachers to carry their weapons into their place of work. The people who this would affect are already armed themselves.

2. How are the police (or, hell, anyone else) going to differentiate the shooter from someone (who presumably has no uniform) who's using a gun to protect students and others from said gunman? Telepathy? Precognition? Uniforms for teachers (at which point, why not just steal one of said uniforms? It would give a lot of free reign for a time)?

Protocol: beyond being the obvious thing to do in a situation like this, I imagine anywhere this policy is instituted will explicitly tell these armed teachers to lock down an area they can control (like a classroom) and keep the people in that area safe.

3. Presuming the teacher learned of the shooting and had time to draw their gun before the shooter got to them, what would prevent said teacher from shooting someone fleeing from the shooter into their classroom, on the assumption that they are the shooter? A shooting is a chaotic, high stress situation, and you're liable to be running on adrenaline and instinct. Also, in an active shooter situation, you need to act quickly or risk getting shot yourself, as I doubt the gunman would just wait a second or two to give you a chance to spot the gun in his hands before shooting him. They're just going to shoot the other person with the gun (or the tall, standing, adult looking person if they even think they're armed) ASAP to ensure that they can continue their rampage without getting shot themselves, so the teacher would need to act quickly, meaning there is always that chance of some unlucky innocent being shot due to mistaken identity.

Everything you say here is, more or less, true. I can't guarantee that some scared teacher might accidentally kill an innocent student, just as how you can't guarantee that a police or security officer wouldn't make the same mistake. Just as how we can't know how many students this kind of measure might save by deterring shooters by making schools no longer defenseless targets, or how many shootings will be stopped early by some teacher who had the means to do so, or how many students could be saved by forcing a shooter to deal with an armed threat to his life instead of targeting helpless victims.

This issue is near and dear to me. My mom works at a middle school, and every school day I dread getting that phone call. The one that goes "Hello? Mr. Brock? I'm sorry to say that your mother was killed in a shooting at [REDACTED] Middle School." I've already lost one parent to murder, I don't want to lose the other in a fit of senseless violence.

That's rough, and I hope you never have to experience that. But I doubt that arming teachers, regardless of the actual effectiveness that measure may or may not have, would increase the odds of such a thing happen.

BTW, on the subject of school shootings and what to do during them, I remember in college, being shown a video of what to do. The advice given was, if you hear the gunshots nearby, lock the door and barricade it, sheltering in place. Safest thing you can do. If you can't, peek out the door, and if you don't see anyone suspicious, evacuate the whole classroom quickly, staying together and head out of the school. If you do, follow the advice for hearing gunshots. If you're outside, head off campus as quickly as possible, if feasible. If not, shelter somewhere out of sight, like a bathroom stall. None of these plans of action lend themselves to shooting the gunman in any event.

These plans also all break down if the gunman finds you, and circumvents or forces through any barricades the occupants of the area have set up. At which point, you're trapped in an enclosed area with a hostile gunman. The only reliable way to survive that kind of situation is to fight. Having access to a firearm in that situation means you can retaliate with equivalent capability to the gunman. If I were in that unlikely situation, I'd rather not be forced into a fistfight with a gunman; those tend to not work out. Staking out an area to lay-low is still a good idea, and would remain so even if you or someone with you has a firearm, it's just the firearm gives you the ability to fight back with parity if the shooter decides they want to be where you are.

In other news, Texas's lt. governor says that schools having too many entrances may make things worse. I would think it would reduce the bloodshed if people can evacuate from more entrances, since that increases the chance that there is one nearby.

Yeah, that's generally going to be a bad call.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

There is evidence that mass shootings are heavily decreased when gun control measures are enacted, as with Australia.

Which are statistically irrelevant anyways. Overall gun homicide trend was unchanged after the buybacks.

Cekoviu didn't say anything about buy backs though.

In any event, more gun control laws need to be tried to separate the edgy shooters from the sane gun owners.

I already said what my idea for gun control should be.

Up to America if it want's to keep going down this road of dead children, adults and, veterans.

Or if it wants to change and save lives.

If you choose to keep going down this path, then I guess I'll see you guys again the next time theirs another mass shooting.

That should be in a month? Two? Three?

[Infected Mushroom]

This will keep happening so long as people are allowed to own guns in the USA. This is why they must be banned, like in nearly every other developed country.

[Kernen]

Which are statistically irrelevant anyways. Overall gun homicide trend was unchanged after the buybacks.

Cekoviu didn't say anything about buy backs though.

In any event, more gun control laws need to be tried to separate the edgy shooters from the sane gun owners.

Why shoulf anybody consent to a restriction of their rights for a maybe?

I already said what my idea for gun control should be.

Up to America if it want's to keep going down this road of dead children, adults and, veterans.

Or if it wants to change and save lives.

If you choose to keep going down this path, then I guess I'll see you guys again the next time theirs another mass shooting.

That should be in a month? Two? Three?

People die. News at 11.

[Zyr and Pony]

Which are statistically irrelevant anyways. Overall gun homicide trend was unchanged after the buybacks.

Cekoviu didn't say anything about buy backs though.

In any event, more gun control laws need to be tried to separate the edgy shooters from the sane gun owners.

I already said what my idea for gun control should be.

Up to America if it want's to keep going down this road of dead children, adults and, veterans.

Or if it wants to change and save lives.

If you choose to keep going down this path, then I guess I'll see you guys again the next time theirs another mass shooting.

That should be in a month? Two? Three?

A week or two?

@Licana I saw your response, but I need to get some writing in on my story, for my Tuesday writer's group. I'll respond when I can.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Cekoviu didn't say anything about buy backs though.

In any event, more gun control laws need to be tried to separate the edgy shooters from the sane gun owners.

Why shoulf anybody consent to a restriction of their rights for a maybe?

I already said what my idea for gun control should be.

Up to America if it want's to keep going down this road of dead children, adults and, veterans.

Or if it wants to change and save lives.

If you choose to keep going down this path, then I guess I'll see you guys again the next time theirs another mass shooting.

That should be in a month? Two? Three?

People die. News at 11.

Because it's better then doing nothing? At least it's trying to save lives? I'm willing to cut taxes on guns in return and remove assault wepons bans.

A trade off for a massive improvement to mental health that goes down the proper channels to temporally restrict rights that only happens if a judge and a medical professional who under went years and years of training agree on if a person is mentally unfit to handle a gun and may go on a killing spree.


"People die. News at 11."

[Uxupox]

Why shoulf anybody consent to a restriction of their rights for a maybe?



People die. News at 11.

Because it's better then doing nothing? At least it's trying to save lives? I'm willing to cut taxes on guns in return and remove assault wepons bans.

A trade off for a massive improvement to mental health that goes down the proper channels to temporally restrict rights that only happens if a judge and a medical professional who under went years and years of training agree on if a person is mentally unfit to handle a gun and may go on a killing spree.


"People die. News at 11."

Temporally restrict rights? W h a t

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Because it's better then doing nothing? At least it's trying to save lives? I'm willing to cut taxes on guns in return and remove assault wepons bans.

A trade off for a massive improvement to mental health that goes down the proper channels to temporally restrict rights that only happens if a judge and a medical professional who under went years and years of training agree on if a person is mentally unfit to handle a gun and may go on a killing spree.


"People die. News at 11."

(Image)

Temporally restrict rights? W h a t

"You have a major mental health problem so we are suspending your right to bear arms until a doctor has deemed you well enough to be trusted with a fire arm."

Or in dank memez:

"your fucking nuts you edgy boi get some help and then you can get your gun"

[Uxupox]

Temporally restrict rights? W h a t

"You have a major mental health problem so we are suspending your right to bear arms until a doctor has deemed you well enough to be trusted with a fire arm."

Or in dank memez:

"your fucking nuts you edgy boi get some help and then you can get your gun"

absolute travesty.

[The of Japan]

Texas has gun free zones now?

yeah, universities used to be, schools below university/college level, courthouses, state buildings are gun free zones in texas.

[The of Japan]

https://youtu.be/K3VQULyT390

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

"You have a major mental health problem so we are suspending your right to bear arms until a doctor has deemed you well enough to be trusted with a fire arm."

Or in dank memez:

"your fucking nuts you edgy boi get some help and then you can get your gun"

absolute travesty.

"Improving the collection of mental illness reports for a state database and then reporting that data to the FBI became a big project in Virginia after Seung-Hui Cho was discovered to have had such severe mental issues that in 2005 there was a failed effort to involuntary commit him. His past might have prevented him from purchasing the weapons he used to kill 32 people at Virginia Tech--if he had been formally committed, if paperwork from his brushes with the mental health system had been forwarded on, and if the FBI database system had worked as federal officials would like it to.

Since the 2007 shooting, Virginia has strengthened its civil commitment laws and worked toward a comprehensive review of mental health services in the state. But six years after Virginia Tech, it was again a Virginia gun-dealer who sold the weapon that was used in a mass shooting.

The comprehensive state-based mental health-oriented approach toward ending gun violence and all the work Virginia did in improving its reporting to the feds may have helped mentally ill people in the state. But, sadly, none of it prevented another state gun sale leading to another massacre."

Not what I was proposing. I am proposing individual mental health checks for first time gun buyers not a mental health data base.