Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[Kirav]

No. I have no respect for the Catalan government deliberately subverting the Spanish constitution and then trying to play the victim when the law was enforced. Fuck that "flip over the table" mentality. Some of the shit with the Guardia Civil got out of hand, but Madrid did the right thing. ¡Viva Rajoy, viva el PP!

Right. Because throwing people down stairs for trying to exercise a basic human right is "[doing] the right thing".

Like I said, things got out of hand, but the Spanish government was well within its rights to physically intervene to stop the referendum from occurring once it was ruled unconstitutional.

[Engleberg]

No. I have no respect for the Catalan government deliberately subverting the Spanish constitution and then trying to play the victim when the law was enforced. Fuck that "flip over the table" mentality. Some of the shit with the Guardia Civil got out of hand, but Madrid did the right thing. ¡Viva Rajoy, viva el PP!

Right. Because throwing people down stairs for trying to exercise a basic human right is "[doing] the right thing".

You can't just vote to commit treason and declare it a basic human right.

[MERIZoC]

What the fuck is wrong with you if you look at people protesting police brutality, fighting for democracy, and call it a tantrum?

Clearly a lot if I can anger people by using hyperbole.

I don't condone the police brutality, but I also don't condone how illegitimate the referendum is, and what Catalan independence will mean for Spain and Europe. The Eurozone does not, I repeat, cannot and does not need another fucking economic crisis.

There's no reason for there to be one, and the notion that there is is fanciful.

[MERIZoC]

Right. Because throwing people down stairs for trying to exercise a basic human right is "[doing] the right thing".

You can't just vote to commit treason and declare it a basic human right.

Thank you for your opinion on Democracy, person who is against it.

[Major-Tom]

Clearly a lot if I can anger people by using hyperbole.

I don't condone the police brutality, but I also don't condone how illegitimate the referendum is, and what Catalan independence will mean for Spain and Europe. The Eurozone does not, I repeat, cannot and does not need another fucking economic crisis.

Well, I mean in theory this doesn't have to be *that* disruptive. The Catalans don't have to declare independence on Monday, the EU can get the ball rolling for negotiations for Catalonia to join as soon as possible and Spain can start work beginning the process of organizing an amicable separation.

Problem is that the EU member states have vested interests in not entertaining separatist movements, the Spanish don't want to lose their biggest cash cow and the Catalans are afraid they're going to wake up the next morning with Spanish tanks on their lawns. It's a great big sucking vortex of brinksmanship now.

Listen, if negotiations do occur, I would hope it is amicable and that Catalonia can take on it's fair share of debt, enter the Eurozone, etc. I don't wish ill on the Catalans.

I would just like a referendum, if there has to be one, where it isn't 40% turnout where only the avid yes voters vote.

When the national police close polling places and steal ballot boxes I think they lose the ability to argue but the Turnout was low.

By that logic, which has a lot of merit to be fair, the only people who would go to such trouble to vote would be yes voters.

I would just like a referendum, if there has to be one, where it isn't 40% turnout where only the avid yes voters vote.

Actually, there was something of a >50% turnout, it's just that, because of around 700,000 votes being seized, only that 40% you mentioned were counted.

I still go off opinion polls, which show the Catalan populace evenly split on the issue (until literally a few days ago about admittedly brutal events.)

[Major-Tom]

You can't just vote to commit treason and declare it a basic human right.

Thank you for your opinion on Democracy, person who is against it.

bruh you're literally an anarcho primitivist.

Clearly a lot if I can anger people by using hyperbole.

I don't condone the police brutality, but I also don't condone how illegitimate the referendum is, and what Catalan independence will mean for Spain and Europe. The Eurozone does not, I repeat, cannot and does not need another fucking economic crisis.

There's no reason for there to be one, and the notion that there is is fanciful.

No need? It could quell some controversy. I just don't want to see both Spain and Catalonia absolutely crushed by debt because of leaving each other. It's like a shitty Vegas divorce, but worse.

[MERIZoC]

Thank you for your opinion on Democracy, person who is against it.

bruh you're literally an anarcho primitivist.

Which is an ideology based in ideas of direct democracy. Don't talk about what you don't know.

There's no reason for there to be one, and the notion that there is is fanciful.

No need? It could quell some controversy. I just don't want to see both Spain and Catalonia absolutely crushed by debt because of leaving each other. It's like a shitty Vegas divorce, but worse.

For what?

[Major-Tom]

bruh you're literally an anarcho primitivist.

Which is an ideology based in ideas of direct democracy. Don't talk about what you don't know.

No need? It could quell some controversy. I just don't want to see both Spain and Catalonia absolutely crushed by debt because of leaving each other. It's like a shitty Vegas divorce, but worse.

For what?

I know - I just know that anarchism doesn't work, thus leading to, well, not democracy, generally. But that's another topic.

Hm?

[MERIZoC]

Which is an ideology based in ideas of direct democracy. Don't talk about what you don't know.



For what?

I know - I just know that anarchism doesn't work, thus leading to, well, not democracy, generally. But that's another topic.

Hm?

What's the "crushing debt" coming from, exactly? If you're going to make the claim, spell it out.

[Major-Tom]

I know - I just know that anarchism doesn't work, thus leading to, well, not democracy, generally. But that's another topic.

Hm?

What's the "crushing debt" coming from, exactly? If you're going to make the claim, spell it out.

Put it this way - Catalonia comprises nearly a fifth of Spain's economy. Barcelona, the whole region, is economically crucial to Spain, perhaps almost as much as Madrid. Once that becomes independent, what then for the rest of Spain? They are fucked. That's me spelling it out.

Can Catalonia survive on it's own economically? Maybe...but getting capital and investors into the newly independent country will be a process, as will distinguishing itself as a trade partner that isn't just Spain or Portugal.

Even if you're Pro-Catalan independence, it has to be recognized that the economic effects of this will not be peachy, especially for the 2nd hardest hit European country after Greece when it came to the great recession.

[Thermodolia]

I know - I just know that anarchism doesn't work, thus leading to, well, not democracy, generally. But that's another topic.

Hm?

What's the "crushing debt" coming from, exactly? If you're going to make the claim, spell it out.

Spain's current debt? If Catalonia doesn't take on its share of the debt it's not going to get into the EU. While Spain now without its cash cow and saddled with massive amounts of debt will default sending a financial shock wave across the EU. It won't be pretty and could possibly spell doom for the EU and I hope to God that a collapsing EU doesn't trigger a world wide economic crisis.

But that's what happens when you act like a spoiled brat. You don't care what happens to anyone else as long as you get what you want. And that's what Catalonia is doing

[Thermodolia]

What's the "crushing debt" coming from, exactly? If you're going to make the claim, spell it out.

Put it this way - Catalonia comprises nearly a fifth of Spain's economy. Barcelona, the whole region, is economically crucial to Spain, perhaps almost as much as Madrid. Once that becomes independent, what then for the rest of Spain? They are fucked. That's me spelling it out.

Can Catalonia survive on it's own economically? Maybe...but getting capital and investors into the newly independent country will be a process, as will distinguishing itself as a trade partner that isn't just Spain or Portugal.

Even if you're Pro-Catalan independence, it has to be recognized that the economic effects of this will not be peachy, especially for the 2nd hardest hit European country after Greece when it came to the great recession.

And that's assuming that Catalonia's departure doesn't trigger an EU wide financial collapse

[MERIZoC]

What's the "crushing debt" coming from, exactly? If you're going to make the claim, spell it out.

Put it this way - Catalonia comprises nearly a fifth of Spain's economy. Barcelona, the whole region, is economically crucial to Spain, perhaps almost as much as Madrid. Once that becomes independent, what then for the rest of Spain? They are fucked. That's me spelling it out.

Can Catalonia survive on it's own economically? Maybe...but getting capital and investors into the newly independent country will be a process, as will distinguishing itself as a trade partner that isn't just Spain or Portugal.

Even if you're Pro-Catalan independence, it has to be recognized that the economic effects of this will not be peachy, especially for the 2nd hardest hit European country after Greece when it came to the great recession.

There's no reason for any sort of catastrophe if you smoothly integrate Catalonia into the EEA. Sure, Spain loses a chunk of it's economy, but it's not like it has to keep providing for the millions of Catalans who are leaving. It'll become a smaller country with a smaller economy, that's ok.

[Oil exporting People]

There's no reason for any sort of catastrophe if you smoothly integrate Catalonia into the EEA. Sure, Spain loses a chunk of it's economy, but it's not like it has to keep providing for the millions of Catalans who are leaving. It'll become a smaller country with a smaller economy, that's ok.

EU doesn't appear set to do such should they pull such a stunt, and Catalonia pays more into the system then they get; that's partly why we're event at this point.

[Thermodolia]

Put it this way - Catalonia comprises nearly a fifth of Spain's economy. Barcelona, the whole region, is economically crucial to Spain, perhaps almost as much as Madrid. Once that becomes independent, what then for the rest of Spain? They are fucked. That's me spelling it out.

Can Catalonia survive on it's own economically? Maybe...but getting capital and investors into the newly independent country will be a process, as will distinguishing itself as a trade partner that isn't just Spain or Portugal.

Even if you're Pro-Catalan independence, it has to be recognized that the economic effects of this will not be peachy, especially for the 2nd hardest hit European country after Greece when it came to the great recession.

There's no reason for any sort of catastrophe if you smoothly integrate Catalonia into the EEA. Sure, Spain loses a chunk of it's economy, but it's not like it has to keep providing for the millions of Catalans who are leaving. It'll become a smaller country with a smaller economy, that's ok.

Only if Catalonia takes its share of the debt will that work. And if they don't. Odds are massively high that Spain will default.

[MERIZoC]

There's no reason for any sort of catastrophe if you smoothly integrate Catalonia into the EEA. Sure, Spain loses a chunk of it's economy, but it's not like it has to keep providing for the millions of Catalans who are leaving. It'll become a smaller country with a smaller economy, that's ok.

EU doesn't appear set to do such should they pull such a stunt, and Catalonia pays more into the system then they get; that's partly why we're event at this point.

Which is why it shouldnt be a stunt, but a clear, carefully organized process, between Madrid, Barcelona, and Brussels.

[Senkaku]

Put it this way - Catalonia comprises nearly a fifth of Spain's economy. Barcelona, the whole region, is economically crucial to Spain, perhaps almost as much as Madrid. Once that becomes independent, what then for the rest of Spain? They are fucked. That's me spelling it out.

Can Catalonia survive on it's own economically? Maybe...but getting capital and investors into the newly independent country will be a process, as will distinguishing itself as a trade partner that isn't just Spain or Portugal.

Even if you're Pro-Catalan independence, it has to be recognized that the economic effects of this will not be peachy, especially for the 2nd hardest hit European country after Greece when it came to the great recession.

There's no reason for any sort of catastrophe if you smoothly integrate Catalonia into the EEA. Sure, Spain loses a chunk of it's economy, but it's not like it has to keep providing for the millions of Catalans who are leaving. It'll become a smaller country with a smaller economy, that's ok.

The EU has said it considers the referendum illegal. There's a zero percent chance of that happening.

You can't just vote to commit treason and declare it a basic human right.

Thank you for your opinion on Democracy, person who is against it.

"my feelings trump any inconvenient laws" - Merizoc

Wow so troops have already been deployed though it looks like the unions have sided with The Catalonias and are not assisting in unloading of troops and equipment though. Things will get crazy.

I for one am looking forward to spending a gap year with a volunteer brigade and polishing my Spanish up.

[The Canadian Confederacy of Provinces]

I Think they should however it will be a hard fight; an all out war in fact.*
*First off Spain has already shown that they will brutally suppress any attempt at separation.
*Second Spain will be backed by the EU because not only does this further destabilizes the Union, they have enough on their plate with those who wish to leave it and since an independent Catalonia would not have been a signatory to the treaties they would likely have a legal argument to leave as well!

[Senkaku]

EU doesn't appear set to do such should they pull such a stunt, and Catalonia pays more into the system then they get; that's partly why we're event at this point.

Which is why it shouldnt be a stunt, but a clear, carefully organized process, between Madrid, Barcelona, and Brussels.

Which it is not, and will not become just because you wish it was.

[Oil exporting People]

Which is why it shouldnt be a stunt, but a clear, carefully organized process, between Madrid, Barcelona, and Brussels.

Ultimately, that's clearly impossible in this situation. I'm personally of the mindset that Spain should just suspend their government until this nonsense ends.

[The Widening Gyre]

Which is why it shouldnt be a stunt, but a clear, carefully organized process, between Madrid, Barcelona, and Brussels.

Which it is not, and will not become just because you wish it was.

I don't think Merizoc's under any illusions about what will probably happen. They're just expressing what they think should happen.

[NeuPolska]

I Think they should however it will be a hard fight; an all out war in fact.*
*First off Spain has already shown that they will brutally suppress any attempt at separation.
*Second Spain will be backed by the EU because not only does this further destabilizes the Union, they have enough on their plate with those who wish to leave it and since an independent Catalonia would not have been a signatory to the treaties they would likely have a legal argument to leave as well!

Yes, let's all just disregard the law, disregard the low turnout, but put the subjective feelings of a few individuals above all others. Spain is hardly "brutally" suppressing anything. What they are doing is standing up for their constitution.

[Senkaku]

Which it is not, and will not become just because you wish it was.

I don't think Merizoc's under any illusions about what will probably happen. They're just expressing what they think should happen.

"Spain and the EU should disregard all their own interests, the precedent it would set, and the fact that this isn't even legal, because muh d1rect democracy"

[MERIZoC]

There's no reason for any sort of catastrophe if you smoothly integrate Catalonia into the EEA. Sure, Spain loses a chunk of it's economy, but it's not like it has to keep providing for the millions of Catalans who are leaving. It'll become a smaller country with a smaller economy, that's ok.

The EU has said it considers the referendum illegal. There's a zero percent chance of that happening.

And the EU has never acted rashly or with bad faith before

[MERIZoC]

Which is why it shouldnt be a stunt, but a clear, carefully organized process, between Madrid, Barcelona, and Brussels.

Which it is not, and will not become just because you wish it was.

It's unfortunate you're unable to understand the difference between normative and descriptive statements