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Nazi Vote and Free Video Games Scenario

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Do we have a deal?

Yes
46
31%
Hell No
104
69%
 
Total votes : 150

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
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Posts: 15849
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:01 am

Alvecia wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
when was the last time its happened?

Hypothetically? It's happening right now.


You mean there was a recent election that had consequence that was decided by a single vote being cast in a certain direction?
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Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)
[/b]

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Alvecia
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Posts: 13838
Founded: Aug 17, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Alvecia » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:02 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Hypothetically? It's happening right now.


You mean there was a recent election that had consequence that was decided by a single vote being cast in a certain direction?

No, I mean the hypothetical is happening now, in this conversation.
British
Atheist
IT Support

Allanea wrote:The plural of anecdote is not data.
That there is no exception to the rule "There is an exception to every rule" is the exception that proves the rule.
---
Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll stop asking you to catch his fish.
That's not happening
That shouldn't be happening
Why is that happening?
That's why it's happening?
How has this ever worked?

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Infected Mushroom
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Posts: 15849
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:03 am

Alvecia wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
You mean there was a recent election that had consequence that was decided by a single vote being cast in a certain direction?

No, I mean the hypothetical is happening now, in this conversation.


How so?
Reincarnation and Successor of God Kefka +~4500 posts


Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)
[/b]

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Alvecia
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Posts: 13838
Founded: Aug 17, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Alvecia » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:04 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Alvecia wrote:No, I mean the hypothetical is happening now, in this conversation.


How so?

I stated it. You know what a hypothetical is, right?
British
Atheist
IT Support

Allanea wrote:The plural of anecdote is not data.
That there is no exception to the rule "There is an exception to every rule" is the exception that proves the rule.
---
Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll stop asking you to catch his fish.
That's not happening
That shouldn't be happening
Why is that happening?
That's why it's happening?
How has this ever worked?

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15849
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:05 am

Alvecia wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
How so?

I stated it. You know what a hypothetical is, right?


I'm not following
Reincarnation and Successor of God Kefka +~4500 posts


Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)
[/b]

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Vassenor
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Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:05 am

So basically this whole thing was meant to be about proving that people will sacrifice their principles for personal gain.

And it ain't happening.
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Infected Mushroom
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Posts: 15849
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:06 am

Vassenor wrote:So basically this whole thing was meant to be about proving that people will sacrifice their principles for personal gain.

And it ain't happening.


There wasn't any purpose behind it, its merely to create good discussion
Reincarnation and Successor of God Kefka +~4500 posts


Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)
[/b]

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Alvecia
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Posts: 13838
Founded: Aug 17, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Alvecia » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:07 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Alvecia wrote:I stated it. You know what a hypothetical is, right?


I'm not following

You asked me for a real world example of a hypothetical. If there were a real world example, I wouldn't need a hypothetical, would I?

I could be asking you to give me an example of anytime someone has been offered infinite games in return for voting Nazi's.
British
Atheist
IT Support

Allanea wrote:The plural of anecdote is not data.
That there is no exception to the rule "There is an exception to every rule" is the exception that proves the rule.
---
Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll stop asking you to catch his fish.
That's not happening
That shouldn't be happening
Why is that happening?
That's why it's happening?
How has this ever worked?

User avatar
Ifreann
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 110353
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:11 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Why would anyone abide by such an agreement if they could break it to their political benefit? Some might call it dishonourable, but what worth is honour?


Hmmmm... you may have a point

I just find it interesting that in other threads you've espoused notions borrowed from Game Of Thrones about honour and loyalty to one's lord and king, but in this thread you're all about material gain overriding any sentimentality. Earlier in this thread you said you'd be loyal to King George if you'd lived in the Thirteen Colonies circa the American Revolution, based on...what? Just the fact that he's the king? No material benefit must be provided to buy your loyalty? You said you'd quarter soldiers in your house with pleasure, even though this would objectively cost you resources and you'd get nothing in return that you couldn't get for free down the local tavern every night. In another thread you seem to struggle with the idea that a police officer could have been in the wrong, because that runs contrary to your belief in the honour of the police. But in this thread you're talking about how it is objectively correct to take a bribe and anyone who doesn't do this is just being swayed by pro-democracy propaganda.

It's almost as though two people with starkly different views use this Infected Mushroom account.
Last edited by Ifreann on Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Banter For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Snark That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Sarcasm.

User avatar
Alvecia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13838
Founded: Aug 17, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Alvecia » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:13 am

Ifreann wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
Hmmmm... you may have a point

I just find it interesting that in other threads you've espoused notions borrowed from Game Of Thrones about honour and loyalty to one's lord and king, but in this thread you're all about material gain overriding any sentimentality. Earlier in this thread you said you'd be loyal to King George if you'd lived in the Thirteen Colonies circa the American Revolution, based on...what? Just the fact that he's the king? No material benefit must be provided to buy your loyalty? You said you'd quarter soldiers in your house with pleasure, even though this would objectively cost you resources and you'd get nothing in return that you couldn't get for free down the local tavern every night. In another thread you seem to struggle with the idea that a police officer could have been in the wrong, because that runs contrary to your belief in the honour of the police. But in this thread you're talking about how it is objectively correct to take a bribe and anyone who doesn't do this is just being swayed by pro-democracy propaganda.

It's almost as though two people with starkly different views use this Infected Mushroom account.

Presumably the Mushroom, and whatever's Infected it.
British
Atheist
IT Support

Allanea wrote:The plural of anecdote is not data.
That there is no exception to the rule "There is an exception to every rule" is the exception that proves the rule.
---
Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll stop asking you to catch his fish.
That's not happening
That shouldn't be happening
Why is that happening?
That's why it's happening?
How has this ever worked?

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15849
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:16 am

Ifreann wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
Hmmmm... you may have a point

I just find it interesting that in other threads you've espoused notions borrowed from Game Of Thrones about honour and loyalty to one's lord and king, but in this thread you're all about material gain overriding any sentimentality. Earlier in this thread you said you'd be loyal to King George if you'd lived in the Thirteen Colonies circa the American Revolution, based on...what? Just the fact that he's the king? No material benefit must be provided to buy your loyalty? You said you'd quarter soldiers in your house with pleasure, even though this would objectively cost you resources and you'd get nothing in return that you couldn't get for free down the local tavern every night. In another thread you seem to struggle with the idea that a police officer could have been in the wrong, because that runs contrary to your belief in the honour of the police. But in this thread you're talking about how it is objectively correct to take a bribe and anyone who doesn't do this is just being swayed by pro-democracy propaganda.

It's almost as though two people with starkly different views use this Infected Mushroom account.


I don't see anything here that's inconsistent.
Reincarnation and Successor of God Kefka +~4500 posts


Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)
[/b]

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15849
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:16 am

Alvecia wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
I'm not following

You asked me for a real world example of a hypothetical. If there were a real world example, I wouldn't need a hypothetical, would I?

I could be asking you to give me an example of anytime someone has been offered infinite games in return for voting Nazi's.


so then there aren't any?

Why should I hold on to my One Vote then (or anyone else)?
Reincarnation and Successor of God Kefka +~4500 posts


Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)
[/b]

User avatar
Alvecia
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Posts: 13838
Founded: Aug 17, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Alvecia » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:18 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Alvecia wrote:You asked me for a real world example of a hypothetical. If there were a real world example, I wouldn't need a hypothetical, would I?

I could be asking you to give me an example of anytime someone has been offered infinite games in return for voting Nazi's.


so then there aren't any?

Why should I hold on to my One Vote then (or anyone else)?

If no-one's offering me infinite videos games, why should I give my vote away?
British
Atheist
IT Support

Allanea wrote:The plural of anecdote is not data.
That there is no exception to the rule "There is an exception to every rule" is the exception that proves the rule.
---
Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll stop asking you to catch his fish.
That's not happening
That shouldn't be happening
Why is that happening?
That's why it's happening?
How has this ever worked?

User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 51488
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Genivaria » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:20 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Alvecia wrote:You asked me for a real world example of a hypothetical. If there were a real world example, I wouldn't need a hypothetical, would I?

I could be asking you to give me an example of anytime someone has been offered infinite games in return for voting Nazi's.


so then there aren't any?

Why should I hold on to my One Vote then (or anyone else)?

There aren't any examples of this idiotic hypothetical that you proposed? No shit.
I'm a liberal/socialist/social democrat/syndicalist/corporatist/I don't even know anymore.

Favorite RvB quote.
Director: Dear Chairman,

I don't give a damn about your committee and its opinions of my work! Have you forgotten sir, we were at war? A fight with an alien race for the very survival of our species. I feel I must remind you that it is an undeniable, and may I say a fundamental quality of man, that when faced with extinction, every alternative is preferable.

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15849
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:21 am

Alvecia wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
so then there aren't any?

Why should I hold on to my One Vote then (or anyone else)?

If no-one's offering me infinite videos games, why should I give my vote away?


maybe they would offer something else? Or not?

In any event, that would be a different OP
Reincarnation and Successor of God Kefka +~4500 posts


Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)
[/b]

User avatar
Alvecia
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Posts: 13838
Founded: Aug 17, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Alvecia » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:22 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Alvecia wrote:If no-one's offering me infinite videos games, why should I give my vote away?


maybe they would offer something else? Or not?

In any event, that would be a different OP

Exactly. If your hypothetical doesn't need any real world examples. Then mine doesn't need them either.
British
Atheist
IT Support

Allanea wrote:The plural of anecdote is not data.
That there is no exception to the rule "There is an exception to every rule" is the exception that proves the rule.
---
Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll stop asking you to catch his fish.
That's not happening
That shouldn't be happening
Why is that happening?
That's why it's happening?
How has this ever worked?

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15849
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:23 am

Alvecia wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
maybe they would offer something else? Or not?

In any event, that would be a different OP

Exactly. If your hypothetical doesn't need any real world examples. Then mine doesn't need them either.


Assuming you started a thread on it
Reincarnation and Successor of God Kefka +~4500 posts


Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)
[/b]

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15849
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:24 am

Genivaria wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
so then there aren't any?

Why should I hold on to my One Vote then (or anyone else)?

There aren't any examples of this idiotic hypothetical that you proposed? No shit.


No discussion of a hypothetical scenario hinges on whether or not there have been precedents of the said scenario, the whole thing is a thought experiment
Reincarnation and Successor of God Kefka +~4500 posts


Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)
[/b]

User avatar
Alvecia
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Posts: 13838
Founded: Aug 17, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Alvecia » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:24 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Exactly. If your hypothetical doesn't need any real world examples. Then mine doesn't need them either.


Assuming you started a thread on it

Irrelevant.
British
Atheist
IT Support

Allanea wrote:The plural of anecdote is not data.
That there is no exception to the rule "There is an exception to every rule" is the exception that proves the rule.
---
Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll stop asking you to catch his fish.
That's not happening
That shouldn't be happening
Why is that happening?
That's why it's happening?
How has this ever worked?

User avatar
Alvecia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13838
Founded: Aug 17, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Alvecia » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:25 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Genivaria wrote:There aren't any examples of this idiotic hypothetical that you proposed? No shit.


No discussion of a hypothetical scenario hinges on whether or not there have been precedents of the said scenario, the whole thing is a thought experiment

Then why did you ask for precedents of my hypothetical scenario?
British
Atheist
IT Support

Allanea wrote:The plural of anecdote is not data.
That there is no exception to the rule "There is an exception to every rule" is the exception that proves the rule.
---
Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll stop asking you to catch his fish.
That's not happening
That shouldn't be happening
Why is that happening?
That's why it's happening?
How has this ever worked?

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15849
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:25 am

Alvecia wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
Assuming you started a thread on it

Irrelevant.


I don't understand what the argument you are making is, so I have no avenues to address it.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reincarnation and Successor of God Kefka +~4500 posts


Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)
[/b]

User avatar
Galloism
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 50244
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:25 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Galloism wrote:But enforcing that agreement would take more work than just voting, so that's a silly hypothetical. It's like saying "people could get together and agree to just exchange their stuff with each other in an equitable fashion and the outcome would remain unchanged compared with using money to trade".

Which they could. It's called bartering. Money is still useful.


Money may be useful, but a single penny is still relatively (or completely) useless.


Exactly, so give me every penny you have. If you give me every penny you have, I'll give you one video game of your choice. They're all useless, after all.

If you had a strong and efficient machinery for mobilising thousands and millions of votes, then in such a situation, a form of voting can be useful.


We call these "elections".

However, it doesn't change the fact that a single vote is relatively (or completely) useless.


So give me every penny you have.

The hypothetical doesn't ask you to trade away the machinery (which in any event, only the rich and the party machines control), it asks you to trade away a single vote.


Actually, it's asking to trade away many many votes. I'm not sure how it is in Canada, but in my state in the US, it would be somewhere between 14-20 votes every two years, another 10 or so in off years, an extra vote every 4 years and every 6 years, for life.

If the average person votes for 60 years (20-80), that's somewhere around a thousand votes you're trading away.

So the analogous version of this to money if we're to apply it to the hypothetical, would be a scenario that asks you to trade a single penny for infinite video games. Any arguments about how Money can be useful in other situation would be irrelevant.


No, because you're not trading away one vote. You're trading away all your votes forever. So give me every cent you have, forever.

In the same vein, its silly to assess the value of a single personal vote, with the assumption that it can somehow be mobilised collectively with thousands/millions of other votes when such things are monopolised by other powers outside of your control.


Sure it can. Despite the pressure of both parties, the legislature, the governor, the attorney general, and sheriffs across Arkansas, weed is now legal, because some guy started a ballot measure petition and got enough signatures to get it on the ballot, and voters voted for it - against the wishes of the powers that be.

Also, they tell me the sky is falling, but it seems to be holding up all right to me.
Last edited by Galloism on Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
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New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 51488
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Genivaria » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:26 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Genivaria wrote:There aren't any examples of this idiotic hypothetical that you proposed? No shit.


No discussion of a hypothetical scenario hinges on whether or not there have been precedents of the said scenario
, the whole thing is a thought experiment

Which is why demanding an example makes you look very silly.
I'm a liberal/socialist/social democrat/syndicalist/corporatist/I don't even know anymore.

Favorite RvB quote.
Director: Dear Chairman,

I don't give a damn about your committee and its opinions of my work! Have you forgotten sir, we were at war? A fight with an alien race for the very survival of our species. I feel I must remind you that it is an undeniable, and may I say a fundamental quality of man, that when faced with extinction, every alternative is preferable.

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15849
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:26 am

Alvecia wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
No discussion of a hypothetical scenario hinges on whether or not there have been precedents of the said scenario, the whole thing is a thought experiment

Then why did you ask for precedents of my hypothetical scenario?


Because the discussion isn't about your hypothetical situation, its about the one outlined in the OP. Hence the only scenario where a fact pattern you propose could be relevant to this situation is if it can be shown to be a realistic possibility (within the framework of the OP).

If you just wanted to discuss a different hypothetical for its own sake, I'd imagined you would start another thread. Because it's not got much to do with this thread I feel.
Reincarnation and Successor of God Kefka +~4500 posts


Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)
[/b]

User avatar
Alvecia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13838
Founded: Aug 17, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Alvecia » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:27 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Then why did you ask for precedents of my hypothetical scenario?


Because the discussion isn't about your hypothetical situation, its about the one outlined in the OP. Hence the only scenario where a fact pattern you propose could be relevant to this situation is if it can be shown to be a realistic possibility (within the framework of the OP).

If you just wanted to discuss a different hypothetical for its own sake, I'd imagined you would start another thread. Because it's not got much to do with this thread I feel.

My hypothetical scenario was a direct response to your own.
In your own you decalre a single vote worthless, in mine I point out how it can be the deciding one.
British
Atheist
IT Support

Allanea wrote:The plural of anecdote is not data.
That there is no exception to the rule "There is an exception to every rule" is the exception that proves the rule.
---
Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll stop asking you to catch his fish.
That's not happening
That shouldn't be happening
Why is that happening?
That's why it's happening?
How has this ever worked?

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