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Charlottesville: A Nation Still Very Much Divided

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Olerand
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10819
Founded: Sep 18, 2014
Democratic Socialists

Postby Olerand » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:33 pm

Sovaal wrote:
Olerand wrote:It would have suppressed the South. Objectively, in the eyes of History, we wouldn't be here if the South had been successfully suppressed.

Certainly, change is not inherently good. You need a balance. Not too much change (like Sweden), nor too little (like America).

I don't know about that, the Union was hardly filled to the brim with people of the progressive persuasion. In fact, when the second Klan arised in the 1920's, Indiana, a decidedly Union state during the war, was a hot spot for their activity.

Certainly, the Union wasn't "progressive", as that term is vapid and means nothing. But the Union was capable of suppressing the South.
This would have made Nixon's Strategy the... Mid-Western Strategy, and just by demographics alone, it would have been less powerful and long-lasting.
French citizen. Still a Socialist Party member.

Qui suis-je?:
Free Rhenish States wrote:You're French, without faith, probably godless, liberal without any traditional values or respect for any faith whatsoever

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Valrifell
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7887
Founded: Aug 18, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Valrifell » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:33 pm

Sovaal wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:I would do no such thing. They are being relocated to an island

And given free lead injections?


Nah.

It's mercury.

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Badger Industries
Attaché
 
Posts: 94
Founded: Jun 06, 2017
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Badger Industries » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:34 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
Badger Industries wrote:Pretty good deflection, eh? You laugh but centrist belief lacks any sort of substantial substance, the kind of substance it takes to unite and properly run a country. You laugh but when a country choses to remain stagnant in the interests of "centrism" it is failing its people.

When someone believes this, it's not worth trying to convince them.
The trick is to walk away and tally up how many people think this, by their political affiliation, and look for any patterns.

Valrifell wrote:
You know the joke in that is that a government of that type displeases everyone on both sides, right?

Their actions to shift it to one political extreme cancel each other out!

I've never gotten a centrist to explain what they actually stand for other than "centrism."
socialism through accelerationism
"But, in general, the protective system of our day is conservative, while the free trade system is destructive. It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point. In a word, the free trade system hastens the social revolution. It is in this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, that I vote in favor of free trade."
alias: italios

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Luziyca
Post Czar
 
Posts: 31595
Founded: Nov 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Luziyca » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:34 pm

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:
Cland Eastopia wrote:

Can I just say that I hope nobody confuses this "person" with a regular conservative. I'm what you could call a conservative and I can't stand having these true terrorists trying to speak for us.

That's part of why I typically refuse to align myself with a label, because then it eventually throws me in with these wackjobs. These labels for conservative and liberal have damaged us in the sense that when this stuff happens, everybody gets thrown in. You support said political candidate? Well, this hate group ALSO supports them, so you're part of them. I hate it, and can't do anything about it, and that upsets me.


I share that feeling with you, quite frankly.

Ditto. This is why I am uneasy saying "I am a liberal:" social liberal, yes, but just saying liberal without any disambiguation? No.

Badger Industries wrote:
Luziyca wrote:If we can purge the extremists on both sides, and focus on improving the welfare of the ordinary citizen, I imagine that such a system will probably be in the best interests of a majority of the population. Especially if it is ruled by a benevolent dictator.

It's kind of difficult for a country to work in the interests of the population if it's not ruled by the population, no?

I'm sure it's a bit more difficult to work in the interests of the population when they are ruled by radicals who do not represent the majority of the population.
|||The Christian Republic of of Luziyca|||
[22:00] <Lanos> nobody here in ESQ should be proud to be somehow remotely related to Luziyca
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The East Marches II
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5290
Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The East Marches II » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:34 pm

Olerand wrote:Sucks for them.

I'm sure you wouldn't want what we have. And that's why we have threads like this.


Yes I far prefer threads like these to threads discussing a tragedy and protests to the Gendarmes arresting everybody for hate speech. The cost freedom and all that, not that you lot would understand. :^)
Senkaku wrote:...your genocidal tendencies and love of hard power and bullying, you seem to want to poison every well America has overseas-...

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:TEM you are as much Nazi as the oodles of Germans with no Nazi party membership yet gave no fucks about the industrialised murdering and refused to question or resist.

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Thermodolia
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27256
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:35 pm

Badger Industries wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:When someone believes this, it's not worth trying to convince them.
The trick is to walk away and tally up how many people think this, by their political affiliation, and look for any patterns.


Their actions to shift it to one political extreme cancel each other out!

I've never gotten a centrist to explain what they actually stand for other than "centrism."

The best of both right and left.
Male, centrist cultural nationalist, lives somewhere in the Deep South, loves dogs particularly German Shepherds, give me any good Irish or Scottish whiskey and I will be your friend for life. I'm GAY! Call me Thermy
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
Click for Da Funies
Click Here for RP Info Embassy Program
Ambassadors to the WA:
Ambassador to the GA Jon Æthr
Ambassador to the SC Eve Šanœ

RIP Dya

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The East Marches II
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Posts: 5290
Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The East Marches II » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:35 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Me and TEM obviously

If I had to pick someone on the right it would be WRA tbh.
Or CM....actually I'm not sure where he is exactly on the scale.


Both of those would be a good choice tbh.
Senkaku wrote:...your genocidal tendencies and love of hard power and bullying, you seem to want to poison every well America has overseas-...

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:TEM you are as much Nazi as the oodles of Germans with no Nazi party membership yet gave no fucks about the industrialised murdering and refused to question or resist.

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Napkiraly
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34936
Founded: Aug 02, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Napkiraly » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:35 pm

The East Marches II wrote:
Napkiraly wrote:>Not Primo de Rivera.
Why even bother then?


Primo de Rivera is a fascinating character, I was recently rereading a book on the matter. Very underrated tbh.

He is quite the interesting figure, even if one disagrees with him. Others that many don't know about are Gentile, Balbo, and Salgado (Brazilian Integralism).
Hopeful future biophysicist. Cultural nationalist and communitarian with syncretic politics. Nationalism doesn't need the delirium that is race. RIP Balk; unjustly DOS'd by moderation.
The Nihilistic view wrote:I left my balls in a pig Cameron needs to grow a new pair. This whole saga was atrocious.

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Olerand
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10819
Founded: Sep 18, 2014
Democratic Socialists

Postby Olerand » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:35 pm

The East Marches II wrote:
Olerand wrote:Sucks for them.

I'm sure you wouldn't want what we have. And that's why we have threads like this.


Yes I far prefer threads like these to threads discussing a tragedy and protests to the Gendarmes arresting everybody for hate speech. The cost freedom and all that, not that you lot would understand. :^)

The Gendarmes arrest people so we don't have threads like this.

If this is freedom, you can keep it. And clearly, you are.
French citizen. Still a Socialist Party member.

Qui suis-je?:
Free Rhenish States wrote:You're French, without faith, probably godless, liberal without any traditional values or respect for any faith whatsoever

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Genivaria
Post Czar
 
Posts: 48383
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Genivaria » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:36 pm

The East Marches II wrote:
Genivaria wrote:If I had to pick someone on the right it would be WRA tbh.
Or CM....actually I'm not sure where he is exactly on the scale.


Both of those would be a good choice tbh.

No offense, haven't argued with you have as much is all.
Yes the Civil War was about slavery.
"Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs."Charles James Napier

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Proctopeo
Minister
 
Posts: 2166
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:36 pm

Badger Industries wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:When someone believes this, it's not worth trying to convince them.
The trick is to walk away and tally up how many people think this, by their political affiliation, and look for any patterns.


Their actions to shift it to one political extreme cancel each other out!

I've never gotten a centrist to explain what they actually stand for other than "centrism."

You're unlikely to get a proper, wordy explanation if you come in like that.
I will, however, provide a sentence fragment, because I'm nice: "whatever doesn't suck, I'll consider"
Center-left libertarian.Economic: -0.25
Does not like First Past the Post.Social: -3.38
My rules of arguingWill probably retake once every month or so, last updated 8/12/17
RIP Balk
Crockerland wrote:Yes, we are aware, the Israelis protect their civilians with weapons while the Palestinians protect their weapons with civilians.

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Napkiraly
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34936
Founded: Aug 02, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Napkiraly » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:36 pm

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:The people in the helicopter died apparently: https://twitter.com/Variety/status/896496602633781248

Fuck. :(
Hopeful future biophysicist. Cultural nationalist and communitarian with syncretic politics. Nationalism doesn't need the delirium that is race. RIP Balk; unjustly DOS'd by moderation.
The Nihilistic view wrote:I left my balls in a pig Cameron needs to grow a new pair. This whole saga was atrocious.

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The East Marches II
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5290
Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The East Marches II » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:36 pm

Olerand wrote:
The East Marches II wrote:
Yes I far prefer threads like these to threads discussing a tragedy and protests to the Gendarmes arresting everybody for hate speech. The cost freedom and all that, not that you lot would understand. :^)

The Gendarmes arrest people so we don't have threads like this.

If this is freedom, you can keep it. And clearly, you are.


The Gendarmes repress speech because the French people have decided they can't handle the cost of freedom. Don't deny anything the government tells you to think!
Senkaku wrote:...your genocidal tendencies and love of hard power and bullying, you seem to want to poison every well America has overseas-...

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:TEM you are as much Nazi as the oodles of Germans with no Nazi party membership yet gave no fucks about the industrialised murdering and refused to question or resist.

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Ostroeuropa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 39422
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:36 pm

Olerand wrote:
Sovaal wrote:I don't know about that, the Union was hardly filled to the brim with people of the progressive persuasion. In fact, when the second Klan arised in the 1920's, Indiana, a decidedly Union state during the war, was a hot spot for their activity.

Certainly, the Union wasn't "progressive", as that term is vapid and means nothing. But the Union was capable of suppressing the South.
This would have made Nixon's Strategy the... Mid-Western Strategy, and just by demographics alone, it would have been less powerful and long-lasting.


The Nixon strategy only succeeds because the democrat elites are unwilling to adopt policies that would counter it.
British National Syndicalist.

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Valrifell
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7887
Founded: Aug 18, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Valrifell » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:37 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Olerand wrote:Certainly, the Union wasn't "progressive", as that term is vapid and means nothing. But the Union was capable of suppressing the South.
This would have made Nixon's Strategy the... Mid-Western Strategy, and just by demographics alone, it would have been less powerful and long-lasting.


The Nixon strategy only succeeds because the democrat elites are unwilling to adopt policies that would counter it.


Dems have won since Nixon, you know...

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Thermodolia
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27256
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:37 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Olerand wrote:Certainly, the Union wasn't "progressive", as that term is vapid and means nothing. But the Union was capable of suppressing the South.
This would have made Nixon's Strategy the... Mid-Western Strategy, and just by demographics alone, it would have been less powerful and long-lasting.


The Nixon strategy only succeeds because the democrat elites are unwilling to adopt policies that would counter it.

Sounds oddly familiar
Male, centrist cultural nationalist, lives somewhere in the Deep South, loves dogs particularly German Shepherds, give me any good Irish or Scottish whiskey and I will be your friend for life. I'm GAY! Call me Thermy
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
Click for Da Funies
Click Here for RP Info Embassy Program
Ambassadors to the WA:
Ambassador to the GA Jon Æthr
Ambassador to the SC Eve Šanœ

RIP Dya

User avatar
The East Marches II
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5290
Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The East Marches II » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:38 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
The Nixon strategy only succeeds because the democrat elites are unwilling to adopt policies that would counter it.

Sounds oddly familiar


*laughs in Midwest*

So... about those farm subsidies and that military spending....
Senkaku wrote:...your genocidal tendencies and love of hard power and bullying, you seem to want to poison every well America has overseas-...

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:TEM you are as much Nazi as the oodles of Germans with no Nazi party membership yet gave no fucks about the industrialised murdering and refused to question or resist.

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Thermodolia
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27256
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:38 pm

Valrifell wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
The Nixon strategy only succeeds because the democrat elites are unwilling to adopt policies that would counter it.


Dems have won since Nixon, you know...

Not very much in the south though
Male, centrist cultural nationalist, lives somewhere in the Deep South, loves dogs particularly German Shepherds, give me any good Irish or Scottish whiskey and I will be your friend for life. I'm GAY! Call me Thermy
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
Click for Da Funies
Click Here for RP Info Embassy Program
Ambassadors to the WA:
Ambassador to the GA Jon Æthr
Ambassador to the SC Eve Šanœ

RIP Dya

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Thermodolia
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27256
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:39 pm

The East Marches II wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Sounds oddly familiar


*laughs in Midwest*

So... about those farm subsidies and that military spending....

When I'm in charge you'll get both of those and more. Though you might be at war with a good chunk of Central America.
Male, centrist cultural nationalist, lives somewhere in the Deep South, loves dogs particularly German Shepherds, give me any good Irish or Scottish whiskey and I will be your friend for life. I'm GAY! Call me Thermy
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
Click for Da Funies
Click Here for RP Info Embassy Program
Ambassadors to the WA:
Ambassador to the GA Jon Æthr
Ambassador to the SC Eve Šanœ

RIP Dya

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Ostroeuropa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 39422
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:39 pm

Valrifell wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
The Nixon strategy only succeeds because the democrat elites are unwilling to adopt policies that would counter it.


Dems have won since Nixon, you know...


They've won elections, sure. They haven't forced a political realignment, which is more important for fostering actual change.

Trump came closer to it than they managed.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
British National Syndicalist.

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Olerand
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10819
Founded: Sep 18, 2014
Democratic Socialists

Postby Olerand » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:39 pm

The East Marches II wrote:
Olerand wrote:The Gendarmes arrest people so we don't have threads like this.

If this is freedom, you can keep it. And clearly, you are.


The Gendarmes repress speech because the French people have decided they can't handle the cost of freedom. Don't deny anything the government tells you to think!

A healthy society requires moderation, self-control, the removal of toxic elements and figures. Otherwise, you end up with America.

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Olerand wrote:Certainly, the Union wasn't "progressive", as that term is vapid and means nothing. But the Union was capable of suppressing the South.
This would have made Nixon's Strategy the... Mid-Western Strategy, and just by demographics alone, it would have been less powerful and long-lasting.


The Nixon strategy only succeeds because the democrat elites are unwilling to adopt policies that would counter it.

The Democrats aren't blameless obviously. Their over-reliance on minorities and non-whites is itself part of the problem.
French citizen. Still a Socialist Party member.

Qui suis-je?:
Free Rhenish States wrote:You're French, without faith, probably godless, liberal without any traditional values or respect for any faith whatsoever

User avatar
Valrifell
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7887
Founded: Aug 18, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Valrifell » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:40 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Valrifell wrote:
Dems have won since Nixon, you know...


They've won elections, sure. They haven't forced a political realignment.

Trump came closer to it than they managed.


Parties don't force political realignment, they reflect them.

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Sovaal
Minister
 
Posts: 3131
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Sovaal » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:42 pm

Olerand wrote:
Sovaal wrote:I don't know about that, the Union was hardly filled to the brim with people of the progressive persuasion. In fact, when the second Klan arised in the 1920's, Indiana, a decidedly Union state during the war, was a hot spot for their activity.

Certainly, the Union wasn't "progressive", as that term is vapid and means nothing. But the Union was capable of suppressing the South.
This would have made Nixon's Strategy the... Mid-Western Strategy, and just by demographics alone, it would have been less powerful and long-lasting.

Said sentiment was wide spread across the US, even in the cities, but especially in rural areas. Native American and foreign influence and all that jazz.
Freedom of Speech, Freedom of religion, Gun rights, LGBT rights, Equal Rights, Environmentalism, Democracy, Evolution, nuclear power
Gun control, Monarchy, Authoritarianism and Totalitarianism in general, NSA, Fundies, Tankies and Nazis (they're both equally bad), Repubs and Dems, the Establishment, Racists, The KKK (May they all burn in hell)


Don't tread on me libertarian
Unapologetic Jon Snow supporter.

"Rifles, muskets, long-bows and hand-grenades are inherently democratic weapons. A complex weapon makes the strong stronger, while a simple weapon – so long as there is no answer to it – gives claws to the weak.” - -George Orwell

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Soldati Senza Confini
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 81670
Founded: Mar 11, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:42 pm

Luziyca wrote:
Soldati Senza Confini wrote:
I share that feeling with you, quite frankly.

Ditto. This is why I am uneasy saying "I am a liberal:" social liberal, yes, but just saying liberal without any disambiguation? No.

Badger Industries wrote:It's kind of difficult for a country to work in the interests of the population if it's not ruled by the population, no?

I'm sure it's a bit more difficult to work in the interests of the population when they are ruled by radicals who do not represent the majority of the population.


I'm a conservative, perhaps too reasonable of a conservative to actually see things from the liberal side.

Nowadays, being a conservative that's willing to compromise is seen akin to treason... It's why I don't define myself as a conservative too often, personally. I value tradition, and value stable change, so I disagree with liberal's radical steps towards change for the sake of change. However, I'm not beyond siding with liberals on changes I honestly believe will benefit society as a whole.
Last edited by Soldati Senza Confini on Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

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Ostroeuropa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 39422
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:43 pm

Valrifell wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
They've won elections, sure. They haven't forced a political realignment.

Trump came closer to it than they managed.


Parties don't force political realignment, they reflect them.


I disagree. By adopting certain policies and rhetoric, voters switch sides. The party forces the political realignment by building a new coalition.

The Democrats have seemingly done precisely nothing to break up the Nixon strategy. Conversely, the Trump strategy seems to be Nixon+. He's stolen "A certain kind of democrat" from the dems.

The republicans are simply better at politics imo.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
British National Syndicalist.

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