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Are Catholics christians?

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Pohan-Vor
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Postby Pohan-Vor » Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:32 pm

Are Roman Catholics Christians?

I grew up being taught that they were not, that what I now call 'Protestantism' was just Christianity and that Roman Catholicism was a Christian-based cult. now that I am older and I have thoroughly studied history, I now know that by secular classifications that Roman Catholicism and Protestantism are both labelled under Christianity. Thing is though, I personally don't really like such labels. I label myself just a Christian, not by any organized religious order (though I like bring up my beliefs in Old-Earth Creationism). I see what people call 'Christianity' as just the truth in the world and in history, anything else is a lie and must be disregarded or see if it is compatible.

By studying history, I've come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is not holy, as to be the untainted all-holy representation of God on Earth that the Pope claims to be then that means the entire Papacy and all of it's history will have to be as holy as God Himself and not having the taint of mankind. Unfortunately, there have been many bad popes, and in this case where there is a single bad one it throws the legitimacy of the Papacy's 'divine rule' away like an over used nasty tissue (that people wont throw away because it's been around for generations). The power that they once publicly had was quite substantial, and power like that just doesn't go away especially when you the theocratic leader of millions of people, so I am naturally always suspicious of the Roman Catholic Church.

Notice my wording. I find the Roman Catholic Church to be a false relic from a bygone age and should be removed from the world, but roman Catholic believers can be Christian. My prejudice towards the order does not carry down to it's millions of followers.

To be a Christian, you first must accept that the 'Christian' Holy Bible is the word of God, divinely inspired over the course of thousands of years into one coherent record containing only truth. You must believe that The Christ is God in the flesh in the form of the one we know as Jesus the Nazarene, and more importantly believe that all the sins across the world and across all of time are poured unto The Christ during his crucifixion so that you, the individual, may be saved from God's fury, as the fury of damnation is being put upon God himself in an act of literally infinite kindness and mercy. What other so-called 'god' that mankind has devised would be so forgiving? If you have not fully heard this message or never understood it, then it is to my personal belief that the question is posed to you in your death, and one can only hope that your Earthly persuasions did not stain your soul a most reluctant stain, and if the paid debt is accepted than you will be embraced into the warmth and greatness of God Almighty. This acceptance of the paid debt and the sacrifice of The Christ also means that you place his life instead of yours, as he lived the perfect life: The Christ while in His time on Earth followed all the laws of the Old Testament as God prescribed and intended, so because he did them you need not to. We followers of The Truth try not to sin (which means 'miss the mark') not because of fear of damnation (as we have already placed ourselves with The Christ), but because of our gratitude, as every sin we make causes more pain to God Himself as the sacrifice spans all of time. All other things and traditions that do not interfere with these things are only flavorful fluff and are not necessary. Traditions should be held in memory of God's eternal sacrifice, not be the focus themselves.
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Caninope
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Postby Caninope » Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:12 pm

By studying history, I've come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is not holy, as to be the untainted all-holy representation of God on Earth that the Pope claims to be then that means the entire Papacy and all of it's history will have to be as holy as God Himself and not having the taint of mankind.

Methinks that you misunderstand what people say when they mean Papal infallibility.
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Prussia-Steinbach
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:17 pm

Caninope wrote:
By studying history, I've come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is not holy, as to be the untainted all-holy representation of God on Earth that the Pope claims to be then that means the entire Papacy and all of it's history will have to be as holy as God Himself and not having the taint of mankind.

Methinks that you misunderstand what people say when they mean Papal infallibility.

I think he does, but at the same time, there's no basis for the concept of Papal Infallibility, or a single head of the church with final authority. Peter never had that.
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Caninope
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Postby Caninope » Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:19 pm

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Caninope wrote:Methinks that you misunderstand what people say when they mean Papal infallibility.

I think he does, but at the same time, there's no basis for the concept of Papal Infallibility, or a single head of the church with final authority. Peter never had that.

So there are two things that are going on here. Yes, there's an argument for Petrine supremacy, but I'm of the opinion that the Early Church is also not the end-all, be-all. Doctrine can develop.
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Because Caninope may be in that room with you.
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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:31 pm

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Caninope wrote:Methinks that you misunderstand what people say when they mean Papal infallibility.

I think he does, but at the same time, there's no basis for the concept of Papal Infallibility, or a single head of the church with final authority. Peter never had that.


The idea of a Petrine supremacy that's both doctrinal and administrative - as opposed to merely a primacy of honour - is essentially the byproduct of a series of 9th-century forgeries known as Pseudo-Isidore undertaken by Frankish clerics and written in the context of a post-Charlemagne Carolingian Empire's claim to be inheritor of the Christian Roman imperial title, with the secular authority paramount over the religious authority; to which was also appended the notorious additional forgery known as the Donation of Constantine.

The forgeries claimed to outline a past administrative structure for the Western Church that had never actually existed, and where the Papacy had a far more interventionist role than it had ever had in the period c.330 - c.750 where it was, for most of that time, a Roman imperial office subordinate to the imperial power. They took on a life of their own when they were used to bolster the reform programme of Gregory VII and his position in the Investiture Controversy.

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Prussia-Steinbach
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:35 pm

The Archregimancy wrote:
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:I think he does, but at the same time, there's no basis for the concept of Papal Infallibility, or a single head of the church with final authority. Peter never had that.

The idea of a Petrine supremacy that's both doctrinal and administrative - as opposed to merely a primacy of honour - is essentially the byproduct of a series of 9th-century forgeries known as Pseudo-Isidore undertaken by Frankish clerics and written in the context of a post-Charlemagne Carolingian Empire's claim to be inheritor of the Christian Roman imperial title, with the secular authority paramount over the religious authority; to which was also appended the notorious additional forgery known as the Donation of Constantine.

The forgeries claimed to outline a past administrative structure for the Western Church that had never actually existed, and where the Papacy had a far more interventionist role than it had ever had in the period c.330 - c.750 where it was, for most of that time, a Roman imperial office subordinate to the imperial power. They took on a life of their own when they were used to bolster the reform programme of Gregory VII and his position in the Investiture Controversy.

Appreciate the elaboration, Arch.

I will admit, you and Constan have definitely expanded my view and interpretation of Christianity, even as an atheist. I still enjoy learning about and discussing theology, as well as the origins and intricacies of the Church(es) and doctrine. You've both swayed me to the belief that the Orthodox Church is probably the best successor of early Christianity, in case that isn't obvious.
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Sperland
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Postby Sperland » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:05 pm

The Alma Mater wrote:
Sperland wrote:This is ridiculous. Of course Catholics are Christians. So are Protestants and anyone else who believes in Jesus Christ.

Muslims believe in Jesus Christ. Are they Christians ?

:rofl: Wow, just wow. IF YOU BELIEVE HE IS THE SON OF GOD YOU ARE CHRISTIAN HOW stupid can you get?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Last edited by Sperland on Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nilla Wayfarers
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Postby Nilla Wayfarers » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:09 pm

Sperland wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:Muslims believe in Jesus Christ. Are they Christians ?

:rofl: Wow, just wow. IF YOU BELIEVE HE IS THE SON OF GOD YOU ARE CHRISTIAN HOW stupid can you get?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Look, I know he's wrong, but calm down, get your finger off the caps lock, and stop clicking :rofl:
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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:09 pm

Sperland wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:Muslims believe in Jesus Christ. Are they Christians ?

:rofl: Wow, just wow. IF YOU BELIEVE HE IS THE SON OF GOD YOU ARE CHRISTIAN HOW stupid can you get?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

A significant number of christians disagrees with you. This in fact is one of the reasons some Potestants do not consider Catholics to be Christians - like the OP mentioned.

But do not let the fact you have zero knowledge on the history of christianity and its different denominations stop you from posting. Unless you hate looking like an idiot ofc; in which case I recommend some education and research first.
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Prussia-Steinbach
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:10 pm

Sperland wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:Muslims believe in Jesus Christ. Are they Christians ?

:rofl: Wow, just wow. IF YOU BELIEVE HE IS THE SON OF GOD YOU ARE CHRISTIAN HOW stupid can you get?

Say "believe he is the Son of God" rather than "believe in him" if that's what you mean. Words convey information and you cannot expect people to know what you actually meant inside your head if your words do not express that.

Also, smiley spam is bad.
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Prussia-Steinbach
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:13 pm

The Alma Mater wrote:Unless you hate looking like an idiot ofc

Anyone who hates looking like an idiot sure as hell isn't on NSG.
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Nilla Wayfarers
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Postby Nilla Wayfarers » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:14 pm

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:Unless you hate looking like an idiot ofc

Anyone who hates looking like an idiot sure as hell isn't on NSG.

It's pretty much a symptom.
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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:17 pm

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:Unless you hate looking like an idiot ofc

Anyone who hates looking like an idiot sure as hell isn't on NSG.


Touche :)
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Behatland
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Postby Behatland » Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:16 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Sperland wrote: :rofl: Wow, just wow. IF YOU BELIEVE HE IS THE SON OF GOD YOU ARE CHRISTIAN HOW stupid can you get?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

A significant number of christians disagrees with you. This in fact is one of the reasons some Potestants do not consider Catholics to be Christians - like the OP mentioned.

But do not let the fact you have zero knowledge on the history of christianity and its different denominations stop you from posting. Unless you hate looking like an idiot ofc; in which case I recommend some education and research first.


>a significant number of Christians disagree

Like whom? Those "cultural Christians" that are just atheists covered in a guise? Or, those pantheistic "Christians"?

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Visegradian Poland
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Postby Visegradian Poland » Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:56 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Sperland wrote:This is ridiculous. Of course Catholics are Christians. So are Protestants and anyone else who believes in Jesus Christ.

Muslims believe in Jesus Christ. Are they Christians ?


They don't worship him though.
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Aelex
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Postby Aelex » Sat Dec 05, 2015 9:01 am

Visegradian Poland wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:Muslims believe in Jesus Christ. Are they Christians ?


They don't worship him though.

No. But they think he will come back during the ends of time to kill Christian.
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Postby Farnhamia » Sat Dec 05, 2015 9:17 am

Sperland wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:Muslims believe in Jesus Christ. Are they Christians ?

:rofl: Wow, just wow. IF YOU BELIEVE HE IS THE SON OF GOD YOU ARE CHRISTIAN HOW stupid can you get?

*** Warned for flaming and smiley spam. ***
Last edited by Farnhamia on Sat Dec 05, 2015 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sperland
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Postby Sperland » Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:32 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Sperland wrote: :rofl: Wow, just wow. IF YOU BELIEVE HE IS THE SON OF GOD YOU ARE CHRISTIAN HOW stupid can you get?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

A significant number of christians disagrees with you. This in fact is one of the reasons some Potestants do not consider Catholics to be Christians - like the OP mentioned.

But do not let the fact you have zero knowledge on the history of christianity and its different denominations stop you from posting. Unless you hate looking like an idiot ofc; in which case I recommend some education and research first.

Look's like someone needs a brain. Of course I have knowledge of the history of christianity and what started the reformation. The Catholic church at that time was corrupt.
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Councilmembers
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Postby Councilmembers » Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:06 pm

Yes, Catholics are Christians. They follow and worship Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of God and one person of the Holy Trinity. That is almost the exact definition of Christianity (accounting for nontrinitarian denominations -- of course).

I was raised Catholic and used to be a very devout follower of the faith before falling away.

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HUElavia
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Postby HUElavia » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:23 am

Do Catholics believe in Jesus Christ and accept him? Yes.
There. Simple answer. I'm done with other Christians saying that Catholics are not Christians.

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Modern Skaaneland
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Postby Modern Skaaneland » Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:18 am

While the Catholic aren't the branch of Christianity which I'd primarily think of if someone just says "Christians" it is correct that they are Christians.
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Postby Luminesa » Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:28 am

Sperland wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:Muslims believe in Jesus Christ. Are they Christians ?

:rofl: Wow, just wow. IF YOU BELIEVE HE IS THE SON OF GOD YOU ARE CHRISTIAN HOW stupid can you get?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


...Well...Jesus IS the Son of God.

Did I miss something in my catechism classes that you happened to have noticed?
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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:28 am

Modern Skaaneland wrote:While the Catholic aren't the branch of Christianity which I'd primarily think of if someone just says "Christians" it is correct that they are Christians.


which is an odd thing considering that roman catholics are by far the largest sect of christianity.
whatever

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Modern Skaaneland
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Postby Modern Skaaneland » Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:31 am

Are you saying that sects cannot be Christian?
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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:35 am

Modern Skaaneland wrote:Are you saying that sects cannot be Christian?

certainly not.

I'm saying that its odd to not think of catholics when thinking of Christians since they are by far the most common Christians on earth.

of course we all tend to think of our own church as the proper representation of Christianity so theres that.
whatever

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