Hawaii has legalized same sex marriage

[Grenartia]

Aren't civil unions the same thing though ?

Marriages were more of a religious thing, yes ? So as long as everyone is still given the same benefits, why should recognition by the church matter ?

No. Civil unions are basically "Marriage Lite". They include some benefits and privileges, but not most. Civil marriage includes all. Religion is only involved if you want to have a religious ceremony, which is entirely optional and has no legal impact.

Basically, this.

No. Civil unions are basically "Marriage Lite". They include some benefits and privileges, but not most.

I see. Well, i personally don't see much reason for a country to allow civil unions and make it a "cut-out" version. If they are going to allow it, then they shouldn't do it half assed.

Because thinly-veiled bigotry. Its basically no different from racially-segregated bathrooms and water fountains.

[Tekania]

Why should we not enjoy the same rights as straight people?

I am assuming the question is about marriage in specific. If so, then i just consider it to be between a man and woman. Tradition and being sacred and all that. Ofcourse even straight couples are ruining the sanctity of marriage and arguably more than homosexuals, so not really that much of an argument anymore.

Ah yes, the "tradition" argument. Not a fan of tradition for the sake of tradition.

I am happily married to someone of the opposite sex. I didn't marry her because men have been marrying women for thousands of years, we married each other because we love each other, and have made personal choices to intermix and integrate our entire lives and property.There are things that I do that are traditions..... I however do not engage in them based solely upon them being a tradition. I am a thinking and reasoning creature.

[Tekania]

I am assuming the question is about marriage in specific. If so, then i just consider it to be between a man and woman. Tradition and being sacred and all that. Ofcourse even straight couples are ruining the sanctity of marriage and arguably more than homosexuals, so not really that much of an argument anymore.

"Tradition" says that a woman is the property of her father until her husband buys her.

And there are traditions that involve cutting holes in ones bottom lip and inserting 6 inch clay disks into it.

"It's a tradition" is really not much of an argument. LOL but people want to go use it anyway, lol.

Excuse me sir, why do you go out on Fridays and hammer 12" nails through your skull?

Well, son, It's a tradition.

It's basically like admitting you can't really think for yourself.

[OddLawnIstan]

The issue arises when you demand that other people nail things into THEIR skulls to follow your traditions.

[The Scientific States]

The issue arises when you demand that other people nail things into THEIR skulls to follow your traditions.

I was unaware that when you legalize gay marriage, you're forcing your beliefs on others.

[Franklin Delano Bluth]

The issue arises when you demand that other people nail things into THEIR skulls to follow your traditions.

I was unaware that when you legalize gay marriage, you're forcing your beliefs on others.

Quite frankly, at this point I'm ready to come out in favor of compelling churches to officiate and recognize same-sex marriages. Not because I actually think that that's a good idea, but just so this particular reactionary red herring will have at least some basis in reality, so that there will be, somewhere, a single person who supports it.

[Shershah]

And there are traditions that involve cutting holes in ones bottom lip and inserting 6 inch clay disks into it.

"It's a tradition" is really not much of an argument. LOL but people want to go use it anyway, lol.

Excuse me sir, why do you go out on Fridays and hammer 12" nails through your skull?

Well, son, It's a tradition.

It's basically like admitting you can't really think for yourself.

So you are against people wanting to insert 6 inch things in holes made in their lips. Why ? It doesn't hurt anyone else.

Consider it similar to tattooing or piercing.

[Shershah]

The issue arises when you demand that other people nail things into THEIR skulls to follow your traditions.

I was unaware that when you legalize gay marriage, you're forcing your beliefs on others.

Well, you are if you go by the term "marriage". You believe that it needs to encompass same sex relationships too while it had been used for opposite sex relationships.

[Franklin Delano Bluth]

I was unaware that when you legalize gay marriage, you're forcing your beliefs on others.

Well, you are if you go by the term "marriage". You believe that it needs to encompass same sex relationships too while it had been used for opposite sex relationships.

It has also been used for same-sex relationships.

[OddLawnIstan]

The issue arises when you demand that other people nail things into THEIR skulls to follow your traditions.

I was unaware that when you legalize gay marriage, you're forcing your beliefs on others.

Wrong side of the argument, I don't believe traditional marriage is a valid opposition to equal rights.

[Shershah]

Well, you are if you go by the term "marriage". You believe that it needs to encompass same sex relationships too while it had been used for opposite sex relationships.

It has also been used for same-sex relationships.

Give me examples. And not any recent ones. And not any that hasn't been recognised by whatever religion they followed. And quantity matters, no not some rare cases of exceptions.

[Shershah]

I was unaware that when you legalize gay marriage, you're forcing your beliefs on others.

Wrong side of the argument, I don't believe traditional marriage is a valid opposition to equal rights.

Equal rights doesn't entitle one to the term marriage nor is it breach of rights to classify things.

And for the "separate but equal is not equal" crowd, the law recognizes men and women as separate, but yet equal.

[Franklin Delano Bluth]

It has also been used for same-sex relationships.

Give me examples. And not any recent ones. And not any that hasn't been recognised by whatever religion they followed. And quantity matters, no not some rare cases of exceptions.

Same-sex (though different-gender) marriages were, if not exactly common, certainly recognized and integral cultural elements of many Native American societies in North America, especially west of the Mississippi.

There's a decent amount of literature on this: Sabine Lang's Men as Women, Women as Men (University of Texas, 1998) and Will Roscoe's Changing Ones: Third and Fourth Genders in Native North America (Palgrave-Macmillan, 2000) are good starting points if you're interested.

Opposition to same-sex marriage isn't just morally equivalent to racism: it literally is racism, because it denies the validity of the cultural practices of non-white Europeans.

[OddLawnIstan]

Wrong side of the argument, I don't believe traditional marriage is a valid opposition to equal rights.

Equal rights doesn't entitle one to the term marriage nor is it breach of rights to classify things.

And for the "separate but equal is not equal" crowd, the law recognizes men and women as separate, but yet equal.

In most places there is no equal to marriage. So until a truly equal solution is found (which I think is just a sad attempt to pander to aggressive homophobes) then the only thing to do is lobby for marriages to be open to all.

[Tekania]

The issue arises when you demand that other people nail things into THEIR skulls to follow your traditions.

Indeed, I'm fine if someone want so nail things into their own head, even if they are doing it for traditions sake.... I draw the line at expecting other people to nail things into their own heads for traditions sake.

[Tekania]

And there are traditions that involve cutting holes in ones bottom lip and inserting 6 inch clay disks into it.

"It's a tradition" is really not much of an argument. LOL but people want to go use it anyway, lol.

Excuse me sir, why do you go out on Fridays and hammer 12" nails through your skull?

Well, son, It's a tradition.

It's basically like admitting you can't really think for yourself.

So you are against people wanting to insert 6 inch things in holes made in their lips. Why ? It doesn't hurt anyone else.

Consider it similar to tattooing or piercing.

I don't have a problem with the doing it at all if they want to. I don't, however expect to be forced to do it myself because they think it's "tradition", and I don't expect them to be able to stop someone from doing it to their ear simply because someone else thinks the lip is the traditional one.

[Shershah]

Same-sex (though different-gender) marriages were, if not exactly common, certainly recognized and integral cultural elements of many Native American societies in North America, especially west of the Mississippi.

There's a decent amount of literature on this: Sabine Lang's Men as Women, Women as Men (University of Texas, 1998) and Will Roscoe's Changing Ones: Third and Fourth Genders in Native North America (Palgrave-Macmillan, 2000) are good starting points if you're interested.

I am afraid that i can go through entire books. And i am looking for names and numbers.

In most places there is no equal to marriage. So until a truly equal solution is found (which I think is just a sad attempt to pander to aggressive homophobes) then the only thing to do is lobby for marriages to be open to all.

That is a position i can agree with.

[Tekania]

I was unaware that when you legalize gay marriage, you're forcing your beliefs on others.

Well, you are if you go by the term "marriage". You believe that it needs to encompass same sex relationships too while it had been used for opposite sex relationships.

No you're not, extending marriage rights in the context of the civil law to encompass same-sex unions does not require people who want to get opposite-sex marriage to instead have to get homosexual ones. We have a concept over here where I am from, that one person's rights end where another's begin.

[Lithosano]

In most places there is no equal to marriage. So until a truly equal solution is found (which I think is just a sad attempt to pander to aggressive homophobes) then the only thing to do is lobby for marriages to be open to all.

That is a position i can agree with.

You do realize you just agreed that marriage equality has to happen, right?

[Franklin Delano Bluth]

Same-sex (though different-gender) marriages were, if not exactly common, certainly recognized and integral cultural elements of many Native American societies in North America, especially west of the Mississippi.

There's a decent amount of literature on this: Sabine Lang's Men as Women, Women as Men (University of Texas, 1998) and Will Roscoe's Changing Ones: Third and Fourth Genders in Native North America (Palgrave-Macmillan, 2000) are good starting points if you're interested.

I am afraid that i can go through entire books.

Your problem, not mine.

And i am looking for names and numbers.

Not gonna get it. Aside from whether such a request can ever be fulfilled, it's also completely irrelevant. Same-sex marriage was a culturally-meaningful and culturally-integrated practice among many Native American movements, regardless of how popular it may or may not have been or whether we know the names of specific individuals who engaged in it.

[Shershah]

I don't have a problem with the doing it at all if they want to. I don't, however expect to be forced to do it myself because they think it's "tradition", and I don't expect them to be able to stop someone from doing it to their ear simply because someone else things the lip is the traditional one.

But what you are proposing is that you want to pierce your lip and call it the same thing as putting a clay disk on it.

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

In most places there is no equal to marriage. So until a truly equal solution is found (which I think is just a sad attempt to pander to aggressive homophobes) then the only thing to do is lobby for marriages to be open to all.

That is a position i can agree with.

You agree with this argument for same-sex marriage?

[Tekania]

Wrong side of the argument, I don't believe traditional marriage is a valid opposition to equal rights.

Equal rights doesn't entitle one to the term marriage nor is it breach of rights to classify things.

And for the "separate but equal is not equal" crowd, the law recognizes men and women as separate, but yet equal.

Not really, we do not have much coding for sex itself. We recognize people as separate and legally equal. We've had laws to code that in the past to limit access to things.... they were wrong then, they are wrong now, and they are being corrected. Same thing is occurring with marriage. LAws limiting marriage and keeping it away from same-sex people have and are in effect, such laws are incompatible with the enlightenment principals which founded western democracy, and our error correction system is currently in the slow process of excising those historical errors of artifact in our systems to pureify it and bring it closer to its core principals of legal equality and justice.

[Shershah]

Well, you are if you go by the term "marriage". You believe that it needs to encompass same sex relationships too while it had been used for opposite sex relationships.

No you're not, extending marriage rights in the context of the civil law to encompass same-sex unions does not require people who want to get opposite-sex marriage to instead have to get homosexual ones. We have a concept over here where I am from, that one person's rights end where another's begin.

My point > x

Your argument -----------> x

Not gonna get it. Aside from whether such a request can ever be fulfilled, it's also completely irrelevant. Same-sex marriage was a culturally-meaningful and culturally-integrated practice among many Native American movements, regardless of how popular it may or may not have been or whether we know the names of specific individuals who engaged in it.

So, what you just provided as a source is irrelevant and redundant. Ty for not making me waste my time.

That is a position i can agree with.

You do realize you just agreed that marriage equality has to happen, right?

You agree with this argument for same-sex marriage?

I am just saying that i don't mind letting anyone calling it marriage if the state isn't willing to offer civil unions with same benefits.

[Franklin Delano Bluth]

Not gonna get it. Aside from whether such a request can ever be fulfilled, it's also completely irrelevant. Same-sex marriage was a culturally-meaningful and culturally-integrated practice among many Native American movements, regardless of how popular it may or may not have been or whether we know the names of specific individuals who engaged in it.

So, what you just provided as a source is irrelevant and redundant. Ty for not making me waste my time.

No, the source I provided is quite relevant. It helps to answer the question you should have asked.