Equality. Standard of Living. The NHS. [Thread split.]

[Grave_n_idle]

Hmm. Also, I seem to have been participating in a threadjack of epic proportions. Can we try to get this back on topic?

Any chance of a split, sirrah?

(I'd really like to see that pre-NHS claim supported).

Are you aware that "sirrah" is a derogatory term?

Only in some of the archaic forms, the latter derogatory understanding is just linguistic drift.

[Czardas]

And welcome to our shiny new topic. Let me check if I forgot any other posts.

[Grave_n_idle]

And welcome to our shiny new topic. Let me check if I forgot any other posts.

A thankless task.

Appreciated. Thanks.

[Seangoli]

And welcome to our shiny new topic. Let me check if I forgot any other posts.

I will call it... Fluffy.

ANYWHO...

From what it appears, Sibirsky, you are getting your statements from your gut feeling rather than actual hard data. I'm intrigued to see any source for the rather bold claim you made earlier about the NHS's system compared to what was around before.

[Top Dawgg]

You're thrashing the hell out of that strawman.

Explain to me this strawman you speak of. What does he look like? Who s the real opponent?

On a more relevant comment, the dog in your pic is quite cute.

Thank you. He's a killer though. Watch your ankles.

[Top Dawgg]

I know the strawman fallacy. i am asking to you to tell me what the strawman is that I erected and am fighting vs the real opponent.

Let's go back to your previous post.

The progressives DO NOT WANT poor inner city kids being educated, because then they will lose their control over them. An intelligent young person will see right through the tactics of Progressives and will think for themselves. He will immediately recognize that the only people Progressives are out to help are Progressives. They only feed crap to the poor so they will vote for them.

You're saying the impression that Progressives are secretly out to screw the poor and only help other Progressives, whatever that even means and that you're somehow privy to this great secret. That's just as silly as the people who say that conservatives are out to keep the poor down and only help out rich white men. In reality, most adherents to a political ideology believe in the stated principles, which is why they adhere to that ideology.

How would a set of secret goals work anyway? Would there be some sort of "Shadowy Progressive Cabal Monthly" newsletter with articles on pretending to care about black people and Hillary Clinton's favorite fetus recipes?

Ever read the Cloward Piven Strategy? This is the "Progressive manifesto" along with Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" that is embraced, followed and revered by the Progressive movement. I challenge you to read both of those publications, THEN come back and tell me I am crazy.

So... can you show us who touts these books as being the cornerstone of the Progressive movement, or is it a super-secret society type deal?

If I showed you that all of the Democratic presidents since Carter embraced Cloward-Piven and Saul Alinsky, would it make any difference to you. If not, I will just let you wallow in your ignorance. If so, I will hunt down the references.

[Top Dawgg]

Ever read the Cloward Piven Strategy? This is the "Progressive manifesto" along with Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" that is embraced, followed and revered by the Progressive movement. I challenge you to read both of those publications, THEN come back and tell me I am crazy.

Stop recycling Beck.

You've never read the Cloward Piven Strategy.

You talk about people reading "both of those publications", but the Cloward-Piven strategy isn't the name of a publication.

What I assume you are talking about, is the 1966 "The Nation" article, entitled: "The Weight of the Poor: A Strategy to End Poverty".

I don't think you're crazy, just ignorant.

I have read every word. Cloward-Piven strategy happens the be the common name, since the long name is well, long.

I happen to have a link to the ORIGINAL unadulterated article if you wish to peruse it. Let me provide you with the last paragraph if the article:

No strategy, however confident its advocates may be, is foolproof. But if unforeseen contingencies thwart this plan to bring about new federal legislation in the field of poverty, it should also be noted that there would be gains even in defeat. For one thing, the plight of many poor people would be somewhat eased in the course of an assault upon public welfare. Existing recipients would come to know their rights and how to defend them, thus acquiring dignity where none now exists; and millions of dollars in withheld welfare benefits would become available to potential recipients now-not several generations from now. Such an attack should also be welcome to those currently concerned with programs designed to equip the young to rise out of poverty (e.g., Head Start), for surely children learn more readily when the oppressive burden of financial insecurity is lifted from the shoulders of their parents. And those seeking new ways to engage the Negro politically should remember that public resources have always been the fuel for low-income urban political organization. If organizers can deliver millions of dollars in cash benefits to the ghetto masses, it seems reasonable to expect that the masses will deliver their loyalties to their benefactors. At least, they have always done so in the past.

[Seangoli]

Ever read the Cloward Piven Strategy? This is the "Progressive manifesto" along with Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" that is embraced, followed and revered by the Progressive movement. I challenge you to read both of those publications, THEN come back and tell me I am crazy.

Stop recycling Beck.

You've never read the Cloward Piven Strategy.

You talk about people reading "both of those publications", but the Cloward-Piven strategy isn't the name of a publication.

What I assume you are talking about, is the 1966 "The Nation" article, entitled: "The Weight of the Poor: A Strategy to End Poverty".

I don't think you're crazy, just ignorant.

I have read every word. Cloward-Piven strategy happens the be the common name, since the long name is well, long.

I happen to have a link to the ORIGINAL unadulterated article if you wish to peruse it. Let me provide you with the last paragraph if the article:

No strategy, however confident its advocates may be, is foolproof. But if unforeseen contingencies thwart this plan to bring about new federal legislation in the field of poverty, it should also be noted that there would be gains even in defeat. For one thing, the plight of many poor people would be somewhat eased in the course of an assault upon public welfare. Existing recipients would come to know their rights and how to defend them, thus acquiring dignity where none now exists; and millions of dollars in withheld welfare benefits would become available to potential recipients now-not several generations from now. Such an attack should also be welcome to those currently concerned with programs designed to equip the young to rise out of poverty (e.g., Head Start), for surely children learn more readily when the oppressive burden of financial insecurity is lifted from the shoulders of their parents. And those seeking new ways to engage the Negro politically should remember that public resources have always been the fuel for low-income urban political organization. If organizers can deliver millions of dollars in cash benefits to the ghetto masses, it seems reasonable to expect that the masses will deliver their loyalties to their benefactors. At least, they have always done so in the past.

Alright, you still haven't shown how this is the adoptive principle of the progressive movement. Just that one guy, who may or may not be progressive, claims it. So... yep. Still haven't proven much.

[Seangoli]

I know the strawman fallacy. i am asking to you to tell me what the strawman is that I erected and am fighting vs the real opponent.

Let's go back to your previous post.

The progressives DO NOT WANT poor inner city kids being educated, because then they will lose their control over them. An intelligent young person will see right through the tactics of Progressives and will think for themselves. He will immediately recognize that the only people Progressives are out to help are Progressives. They only feed crap to the poor so they will vote for them.

You're saying the impression that Progressives are secretly out to screw the poor and only help other Progressives, whatever that even means and that you're somehow privy to this great secret. That's just as silly as the people who say that conservatives are out to keep the poor down and only help out rich white men. In reality, most adherents to a political ideology believe in the stated principles, which is why they adhere to that ideology.

How would a set of secret goals work anyway? Would there be some sort of "Shadowy Progressive Cabal Monthly" newsletter with articles on pretending to care about black people and Hillary Clinton's favorite fetus recipes?

Ever read the Cloward Piven Strategy? This is the "Progressive manifesto" along with Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" that is embraced, followed and revered by the Progressive movement. I challenge you to read both of those publications, THEN come back and tell me I am crazy.

So... can you show us who touts these books as being the cornerstone of the Progressive movement, or is it a super-secret society type deal?

If I showed you that all of the Democratic presidents since Carter embraced Cloward-Piven and Saul Alinsky, would it make any difference to you. If not, I will just let you wallow in your ignorance. If so, I will hunt down the references.

Sure, if you can show that's what they were doing. You have to prove intent, above all else.

[Grave_n_idle]

I have read every word. Cloward-Piven strategy happens the be the common name, since the long name is well, long.

I happen to have a link to the ORIGINAL unadulterated article if you wish to peruse it. Let me provide you with the last paragraph if the article:

No strategy, however confident its advocates may be, is foolproof. But if unforeseen contingencies thwart this plan to bring about new federal legislation in the field of poverty, it should also be noted that there would be gains even in defeat. For one thing, the plight of many poor people would be somewhat eased in the course of an assault upon public welfare. Existing recipients would come to know their rights and how to defend them, thus acquiring dignity where none now exists; and millions of dollars in withheld welfare benefits would become available to potential recipients now-not several generations from now. Such an attack should also be welcome to those currently concerned with programs designed to equip the young to rise out of poverty (e.g., Head Start), for surely children learn more readily when the oppressive burden of financial insecurity is lifted from the shoulders of their parents. And those seeking new ways to engage the Negro politically should remember that public resources have always been the fuel for low-income urban political organization. If organizers can deliver millions of dollars in cash benefits to the ghetto masses, it seems reasonable to expect that the masses will deliver their loyalties to their benefactors. At least, they have always done so in the past.

Meh. Anyone can google something, especially after I gave you the name AND the source from which to google it.

What do you think you proved, anyway? That two people thought a model of convincing all potential claimants to claim, would result in a minimum assured income? Sure - we can debate that, if you like.

But it doesn't seem to relate to what you were claiming in the thread.

[Top Dawgg]

I know the strawman fallacy. i am asking to you to tell me what the strawman is that I erected and am fighting vs the real opponent.

Let's go back to your previous post.

The progressives DO NOT WANT poor inner city kids being educated, because then they will lose their control over them. An intelligent young person will see right through the tactics of Progressives and will think for themselves. He will immediately recognize that the only people Progressives are out to help are Progressives. They only feed crap to the poor so they will vote for them.

You're saying the impression that Progressives are secretly out to screw the poor and only help other Progressives, whatever that even means and that you're somehow privy to this great secret. That's just as silly as the people who say that conservatives are out to keep the poor down and only help out rich white men. In reality, most adherents to a political ideology believe in the stated principles, which is why they adhere to that ideology.

How would a set of secret goals work anyway? Would there be some sort of "Shadowy Progressive Cabal Monthly" newsletter with articles on pretending to care about black people and Hillary Clinton's favorite fetus recipes?

Ever read the Cloward Piven Strategy? This is the "Progressive manifesto" along with Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" that is embraced, followed and revered by the Progressive movement. I challenge you to read both of those publications, THEN come back and tell me I am crazy.

So... can you show us who touts these books as being the cornerstone of the Progressive movement, or is it a super-secret society type deal?

If I showed you that all of the Democratic presidents since Carter embraced Cloward-Piven and Saul Alinsky, would it make any difference to you. If not, I will just let you wallow in your ignorance. If so, I will hunt down the references.

Sure, if you can show that's what they were doing. You have to prove intent, above all else.

I am not a lawyer. I dont know how to PROVE INTENT. I can show you where they taught CPS and Alinsky in classrooms.I can show where they taught CPS and Alinsky to community organizers. I can show you where Cloward and Piven showed up to a signing of a bill. I can show you where they said in thier own words how they embraced CPS and Alinsky. But proof often falls on closed ears.

[Grave_n_idle]

I can show you where they taught CPS and Alinsky in classrooms.I can show where they taught CPS and Alinsky to community organizers. I can show you where Cloward and Piven showed up to a signing of a bill. I can show you where they said in thier own words how they embraced CPS and Alinsky. But proof often falls on closed ears.

Don't talk. Do.

[Top Dawgg]

I can show you where they taught CPS and Alinsky in classrooms.I can show where they taught CPS and Alinsky to community organizers. I can show you where Cloward and Piven showed up to a signing of a bill. I can show you where they said in thier own words how they embraced CPS and Alinsky. But proof often falls on closed ears.

Don't talk. Do.

I am not going to waste my time if the sources and proof will fall on dead ears.

[Seangoli]

I know the strawman fallacy. i am asking to you to tell me what the strawman is that I erected and am fighting vs the real opponent.

Let's go back to your previous post.

The progressives DO NOT WANT poor inner city kids being educated, because then they will lose their control over them. An intelligent young person will see right through the tactics of Progressives and will think for themselves. He will immediately recognize that the only people Progressives are out to help are Progressives. They only feed crap to the poor so they will vote for them.

You're saying the impression that Progressives are secretly out to screw the poor and only help other Progressives, whatever that even means and that you're somehow privy to this great secret. That's just as silly as the people who say that conservatives are out to keep the poor down and only help out rich white men. In reality, most adherents to a political ideology believe in the stated principles, which is why they adhere to that ideology.

How would a set of secret goals work anyway? Would there be some sort of "Shadowy Progressive Cabal Monthly" newsletter with articles on pretending to care about black people and Hillary Clinton's favorite fetus recipes?

Ever read the Cloward Piven Strategy? This is the "Progressive manifesto" along with Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" that is embraced, followed and revered by the Progressive movement. I challenge you to read both of those publications, THEN come back and tell me I am crazy.

So... can you show us who touts these books as being the cornerstone of the Progressive movement, or is it a super-secret society type deal?

If I showed you that all of the Democratic presidents since Carter embraced Cloward-Piven and Saul Alinsky, would it make any difference to you. If not, I will just let you wallow in your ignorance. If so, I will hunt down the references.

Sure, if you can show that's what they were doing. You have to prove intent, above all else.

I am not a lawyer. I dont know how to PROVE INTENT. I can show you where they taught CPS and Alinsky in classrooms.I can show where they taught CPS and Alinsky to community organizers. I can show you where Cloward and Piven showed up to a signing of a bill. I can show you where they said in thier own words how they embraced CPS and Alinsky. But proof often falls on closed ears.

Sure, go for it. I'll be waiting. Really, I will. I want to see the proof. I really, truly do. And I'm being serious, here. I really am, with absolutely no joking involved, I want to see it.

[Seangoli]

I can show you where they taught CPS and Alinsky in classrooms.I can show where they taught CPS and Alinsky to community organizers. I can show you where Cloward and Piven showed up to a signing of a bill. I can show you where they said in thier own words how they embraced CPS and Alinsky. But proof often falls on closed ears.

Don't talk. Do.

I am not going to waste my time if the sources and proof will fall on dead ears.

Which means you don't have sources, you are lying, making shit up, got caught, and are now pulling the oldest troll trick in the book.

Seriously, though, if you have the sources why not show them? What harm will it do?

[Top Dawgg]

I know the strawman fallacy. i am asking to you to tell me what the strawman is that I erected and am fighting vs the real opponent.

Let's go back to your previous post.

The progressives DO NOT WANT poor inner city kids being educated, because then they will lose their control over them. An intelligent young person will see right through the tactics of Progressives and will think for themselves. He will immediately recognize that the only people Progressives are out to help are Progressives. They only feed crap to the poor so they will vote for them.

You're saying the impression that Progressives are secretly out to screw the poor and only help other Progressives, whatever that even means and that you're somehow privy to this great secret. That's just as silly as the people who say that conservatives are out to keep the poor down and only help out rich white men. In reality, most adherents to a political ideology believe in the stated principles, which is why they adhere to that ideology.

How would a set of secret goals work anyway? Would there be some sort of "Shadowy Progressive Cabal Monthly" newsletter with articles on pretending to care about black people and Hillary Clinton's favorite fetus recipes?

Ever read the Cloward Piven Strategy? This is the "Progressive manifesto" along with Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" that is embraced, followed and revered by the Progressive movement. I challenge you to read both of those publications, THEN come back and tell me I am crazy.

So... can you show us who touts these books as being the cornerstone of the Progressive movement, or is it a super-secret society type deal?

If I showed you that all of the Democratic presidents since Carter embraced Cloward-Piven and Saul Alinsky, would it make any difference to you. If not, I will just let you wallow in your ignorance. If so, I will hunt down the references.

Sure, if you can show that's what they were doing. You have to prove intent, above all else.

I am not a lawyer. I dont know how to PROVE INTENT. I can show you where they taught CPS and Alinsky in classrooms.I can show where they taught CPS and Alinsky to community organizers. I can show you where Cloward and Piven showed up to a signing of a bill. I can show you where they said in thier own words how they embraced CPS and Alinsky. But proof often falls on closed ears.

Sure, go for it. I'll be waiting. Really, I will. I want to see the proof. I really, truly do. And I'm being serious, here. I really am, with absolutely joking involved, I want to see it.

since you feel that mocking me is funny, you can wallow in ignorance.

[Top Dawgg]

I can show you where they taught CPS and Alinsky in classrooms.I can show where they taught CPS and Alinsky to community organizers. I can show you where Cloward and Piven showed up to a signing of a bill. I can show you where they said in thier own words how they embraced CPS and Alinsky. But proof often falls on closed ears.

Don't talk. Do.

I am not going to waste my time if the sources and proof will fall on dead ears.

Which means you don't have sources, you are lying, making shit up, got caught, and are now pulling the oldest troll trick in the book.

Seriously, though, if you have the sources why not show them? What harm will it do?

Stand by.

[Seangoli]

I know the strawman fallacy. i am asking to you to tell me what the strawman is that I erected and am fighting vs the real opponent.

Let's go back to your previous post.

The progressives DO NOT WANT poor inner city kids being educated, because then they will lose their control over them. An intelligent young person will see right through the tactics of Progressives and will think for themselves. He will immediately recognize that the only people Progressives are out to help are Progressives. They only feed crap to the poor so they will vote for them.

You're saying the impression that Progressives are secretly out to screw the poor and only help other Progressives, whatever that even means and that you're somehow privy to this great secret. That's just as silly as the people who say that conservatives are out to keep the poor down and only help out rich white men. In reality, most adherents to a political ideology believe in the stated principles, which is why they adhere to that ideology.

How would a set of secret goals work anyway? Would there be some sort of "Shadowy Progressive Cabal Monthly" newsletter with articles on pretending to care about black people and Hillary Clinton's favorite fetus recipes?

Ever read the Cloward Piven Strategy? This is the "Progressive manifesto" along with Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" that is embraced, followed and revered by the Progressive movement. I challenge you to read both of those publications, THEN come back and tell me I am crazy.

So... can you show us who touts these books as being the cornerstone of the Progressive movement, or is it a super-secret society type deal?

If I showed you that all of the Democratic presidents since Carter embraced Cloward-Piven and Saul Alinsky, would it make any difference to you. If not, I will just let you wallow in your ignorance. If so, I will hunt down the references.

Sure, if you can show that's what they were doing. You have to prove intent, above all else.

I am not a lawyer. I dont know how to PROVE INTENT. I can show you where they taught CPS and Alinsky in classrooms.I can show where they taught CPS and Alinsky to community organizers. I can show you where Cloward and Piven showed up to a signing of a bill. I can show you where they said in thier own words how they embraced CPS and Alinsky. But proof often falls on closed ears.

Sure, go for it. I'll be waiting. Really, I will. I want to see the proof. I really, truly do. And I'm being serious, here. I really am, with absolutely joking involved, I want to see it.

since you feel that mocking me is funny, you can wallow in ignorance.

I'm not mocking you, it may have appeared so due to a typo which has been corrected. I really want to see your proof.

[Grave_n_idle]

I can show you where they taught CPS and Alinsky in classrooms.I can show where they taught CPS and Alinsky to community organizers. I can show you where Cloward and Piven showed up to a signing of a bill. I can show you where they said in thier own words how they embraced CPS and Alinsky. But proof often falls on closed ears.

Don't talk. Do.

I am not going to waste my time if the sources and proof will fall on dead ears.

If you can make a good argument, and back it up... you'll have a convert (maybe more than one).

If you can't... well, your arguments can be dismissed as baseless rhetoric.

[Top Dawgg]

In response to:

I can show you where they taught CPS and Alinsky in classrooms.I can show where they taught CPS and Alinsky to community organizers. I can show you where Cloward and Piven showed up to a signing of a bill. I can show you where they said in thier own words how they embraced CPS and Alinsky. But proof often falls on closed ears.

Don't talk. Do.

I am not going to waste my time if the sources and proof will fall on dead ears.

If you can make a good argument, and back it up... you'll have a convert (maybe more than one).

If you can't... well, your arguments can be dismissed as baseless rhetoric.

While no source that you will likely believe is going to come right out and say it, these are the clues.

"Motor Voter" act, signed into law by Bill Clinton in 1993 with Cloward and Piven standing behind him.

Cloward is white hair grey suit guy, Piven is to his right.

Source:

This voter registration movement was spear headed by Frances Piven and Richard Cloward in the early 1980s in response to the Reagan administration. It was believed that through government implementation of more active registration proposals it would increase voter turn out rates which have been on a steady decline since the monumental election of 1896.

Source:

Acorn's relationship to the Obama campaign is a matter of public record. Last year, Citizens Consulting Inc., the umbrella group controlling Acorn, was paid $832,000 by the Obama campaign for get-out-the-vote efforts in key primary states. In filings with the Federal Election Commission, the campaign listed the payments as "staging, sound, lighting," only correcting them after reporters from the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review revealed their true nature.

Mr. Obama distanced himself from the group's scandals last year, saying "We don't need Acorn's help." Nevertheless, he got his start as a community organizer at Acorn's side. In 1992, he headed a registration effort for Project Vote, an Acorn partner at the time. In 1995, he represented Acorn in a key case upholding the new Motor Voter Act -- the very law whose mandated postcard registration system Acorn workers use to flood election offices with bogus registrations.

Obama is teaching Alinsky's principles of "Power Analysis" and "Relationships built on self-interest" as seen written upon the blackboard

I’ve been fighting alongside ACORN on issues you care about my entire career. Even before I was an elected official, when I ran Project Vote voter registration drive in Illinois, ACORN was smack dab in the middle of it, and we appreciate your work. — Barack Obama, Speech to ACORN, November 2007

Source:

Obama started building the base years before. For instance, ACORN noticed him when he was organizing on the far south side of the city with the Developing Communities Project. He was a very good organizer. When he returned from law school, we asked him to help us with a lawsuit to challenge the state of Illinois' refusal to abide by the National Voting Rights Act, also known as motor voter. Allied only with the state of Mississippi, Illinois had been refusing to allow mass-based voter registration according to the new law. Obama took the case, known as ACORN vs. Edgar (the name of the Republican governor at the time) and we won. Obama then went on to run a voter registration project with Project VOTE in 1992 that made it possible for Carol Moseley Braun to win the Senate that year. Project VOTE delivered 50,000 newly registered voters in that campaign (ACORN delivered about 5000 of them).

In fact, this website run by the Democratic Natl Committee
says this:

Discredited Republican voter-suppression guru Ken Blackwell is attacking Barack Obama with naked lies about his supposed connection to ACORN.

• Fact: Barack was never an ACORN community organizer.
• Fact: ACORN never hired Obama as a trainer, organizer, or any type of employee.
• Fact: ACORN was not part of Project Vote, the successful voter registration drive Barack ran in 1992.

The Community Reinvestment Act Passed by the Carter Administration in 1977
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act

Classic CPS to overload the system and cause it to crash.

Source: THE WEIGHT OF THE POOR - A STRATEGY TO END POVERTY

By crisis, we mean a publicly visible disruption in some institutional sphere. Crisis can occur spontaneously (e.g., riots) or as the intended result of tactics of demonstration and protest which either generate institutional disruption or bring unrecognized disruption to public attention.

Hillary Clinton's Thesis on Saul Alinsky
http://www.freedomunderground.org/Hilla ... Thesis.pdf

[North Suran]

In Germany they have selection on ability. That makes it easier. In our country, only a lucky few (and lots of those are rich kids who've been privately-trained for the exam) get to experience this tool of social mobility. I'm one of the lucky few, especially lucky in that my parents had the right attitude.

Social mobility has improved slightly over the years, although executive government is still dominated by the middle classes, myself included - as a member of the middle class, not a member of government, obviously.

And indeed, class still plays a major role in the quality of your education, your chances of getting into University, finding employment, etc. Which is why any claims that we enjoy absolute meritocracy in the West are demonstrably false. There will always be class divides, social barriers and the self-perpetuating cycle of poverty. Things that some people deliberately ignore, in order to justify their "If you don't own a Fortune 500 company, you're just lazy" rhetoric.

[New Sociopia]

I like the NHS. I'm sorry I don't have much else to contribute, but although specifically with mental health issues I'm not sure my treatment has been right for me, The NHS have fulfilled my every health need to adequate levels. And given their workload and what is asked of them, and the fact that it costs nothing (beyond taxes) to go into a hospital and because of my family's financial status, nothing to get medication, I find it quite incredible.

[The Tofu Islands]

Since no-one’s been bothering with sources so far...

45000 people die in the US every year due to lack of health insurance. That’s about one every 12 minutes, three thousand (the death toll of 9/11) every 24 days.

A WHO report from 2000 (press release, pdf version) ranks the US as 37th for overall system performance (just below Costa Rica and only slightly above Cuba), and 72nd for overall level of health. The same report ranks it as first in the world for money spent (that is to say, the most expensive system in the world).

Another WHO report from 2009 (using data from 2006ish) also gives the US’s spending at $7000 or so per capita, compared to universal systems in Europe and Canada which tend to be in the $3000-$4000 range.

I’ve got to go to bed soon, so I probably wont be able to reply until tomorrow morning, but that should be something to chew on.

[Grave_n_idle]

In response to:

I can show you where they taught CPS and Alinsky in classrooms.I can show where they taught CPS and Alinsky to community organizers. I can show you where Cloward and Piven showed up to a signing of a bill. I can show you where they said in thier own words how they embraced CPS and Alinsky. But proof often falls on closed ears.

Don't talk. Do.

I am not going to waste my time if the sources and proof will fall on dead ears.

If you can make a good argument, and back it up... you'll have a convert (maybe more than one).

If you can't... well, your arguments can be dismissed as baseless rhetoric.

While no source that you will likely believe is going to come right out and say it, these are the clues.

"Motor Voter" act, signed into law by Bill Clinton in 1993 with Cloward and Piven standing behind him.

Cloward is white hair grey suit guy, Piven is to his right.

Source:

This voter registration movement was spear headed by Frances Piven and Richard Cloward in the early 1980s in response to the Reagan administration. It was believed that through government implementation of more active registration proposals it would increase voter turn out rates which have been on a steady decline since the monumental election of 1896.

Source:

Acorn's relationship to the Obama campaign is a matter of public record. Last year, Citizens Consulting Inc., the umbrella group controlling Acorn, was paid $832,000 by the Obama campaign for get-out-the-vote efforts in key primary states. In filings with the Federal Election Commission, the campaign listed the payments as "staging, sound, lighting," only correcting them after reporters from the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review revealed their true nature.

Mr. Obama distanced himself from the group's scandals last year, saying "We don't need Acorn's help." Nevertheless, he got his start as a community organizer at Acorn's side. In 1992, he headed a registration effort for Project Vote, an Acorn partner at the time. In 1995, he represented Acorn in a key case upholding the new Motor Voter Act -- the very law whose mandated postcard registration system Acorn workers use to flood election offices with bogus registrations.

Obama is teaching Alinsky's principles of "Power Analysis" and "Relationships built on self-interest" as seen written upon the blackboard

I’ve been fighting alongside ACORN on issues you care about my entire career. Even before I was an elected official, when I ran Project Vote voter registration drive in Illinois, ACORN was smack dab in the middle of it, and we appreciate your work. — Barack Obama, Speech to ACORN, November 2007

Source:

Obama started building the base years before. For instance, ACORN noticed him when he was organizing on the far south side of the city with the Developing Communities Project. He was a very good organizer. When he returned from law school, we asked him to help us with a lawsuit to challenge the state of Illinois' refusal to abide by the National Voting Rights Act, also known as motor voter. Allied only with the state of Mississippi, Illinois had been refusing to allow mass-based voter registration according to the new law. Obama took the case, known as ACORN vs. Edgar (the name of the Republican governor at the time) and we won. Obama then went on to run a voter registration project with Project VOTE in 1992 that made it possible for Carol Moseley Braun to win the Senate that year. Project VOTE delivered 50,000 newly registered voters in that campaign (ACORN delivered about 5000 of them).

In fact, this website run by the Democratic Natl Committee
says this:

Discredited Republican voter-suppression guru Ken Blackwell is attacking Barack Obama with naked lies about his supposed connection to ACORN.

• Fact: Barack was never an ACORN community organizer.
• Fact: ACORN never hired Obama as a trainer, organizer, or any type of employee.
• Fact: ACORN was not part of Project Vote, the successful voter registration drive Barack ran in 1992.

The Community Reinvestment Act Passed by the Carter Administration in 1977
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act

Classic CPS to overload the system and cause it to crash.

Source: THE WEIGHT OF THE POOR - A STRATEGY TO END POVERTY

By crisis, we mean a publicly visible disruption in some institutional sphere. Crisis can occur spontaneously (e.g., riots) or as the intended result of tactics of demonstration and protest which either generate institutional disruption or bring unrecognized disruption to public attention.

Hillary Clinton's Thesis on Saul Alinsky
http://www.freedomunderground.org/Hilla ... Thesis.pdf

The NVRA has nothing to do with CPS. Dismissed.

Acorn registering voters has nothing to do with CPS. Dismissed.

Obama once working for an agency affiliated (at that point) to Acorn has nothing to do with CPS. Dismissed.

Obama drawing a chart of Alinsky doesn't prove any endorsement of Alinsky or CPS or that it was being 'taught in classrooms' or to community organisers. At best, it might show that Obama (once) lectured about the principles Dismissed.

Obama praising Acorn workers has nothing to do with CPS. Dismissed.

Obama taking legal work on an NVRA case has nothing to do with CPS. Dismissed.

The CRA has nothing to do with CPS. Dismissed.

Clinton writing about Alinsky, for an academic paper, doesn't intrinsically suggest endorsement or acceptance of principles. Dismissed.



So: You said you could show where 'they' taught CPS and Alinsky in classrooms. You have presented one picture that MIGHT show something, or might show nothing of the kind - no support was given.

0 for 1.


You said you could show where 'they' taught CPS and Alinsky to community organisers. You have presented that same one picture that MIGHT show something. No support was given.

0 for 2.


You said you could show where Cloward and Piven showed up for the signing of a bill. This you actually managed - although it had nothing to do with CPS or Alinsky.

I'll allow it, anyway

1 for 3.


You said you could show where 'they' said in their own words how they 'embraced' CPS and Alinsky. You've done no such thing.

1 for 4


That's a pisspoor batting average.

And the one claim you did provide any kind of evidence for? Has nothing to do with the subject matter.

[Top Dawgg]

In response to:

I can show you where they taught CPS and Alinsky in classrooms.I can show where they taught CPS and Alinsky to community organizers. I can show you where Cloward and Piven showed up to a signing of a bill. I can show you where they said in thier own words how they embraced CPS and Alinsky. But proof often falls on closed ears.

Don't talk. Do.

I am not going to waste my time if the sources and proof will fall on dead ears.

If you can make a good argument, and back it up... you'll have a convert (maybe more than one).

If you can't... well, your arguments can be dismissed as baseless rhetoric.

While no source that you will likely believe is going to come right out and say it, these are the clues.

"Motor Voter" act, signed into law by Bill Clinton in 1993 with Cloward and Piven standing behind him.

Cloward is white hair grey suit guy, Piven is to his right.

Source:

This voter registration movement was spear headed by Frances Piven and Richard Cloward in the early 1980s in response to the Reagan administration. It was believed that through government implementation of more active registration proposals it would increase voter turn out rates which have been on a steady decline since the monumental election of 1896.

Source:

Acorn's relationship to the Obama campaign is a matter of public record. Last year, Citizens Consulting Inc., the umbrella group controlling Acorn, was paid $832,000 by the Obama campaign for get-out-the-vote efforts in key primary states. In filings with the Federal Election Commission, the campaign listed the payments as "staging, sound, lighting," only correcting them after reporters from the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review revealed their true nature.

Mr. Obama distanced himself from the group's scandals last year, saying "We don't need Acorn's help." Nevertheless, he got his start as a community organizer at Acorn's side. In 1992, he headed a registration effort for Project Vote, an Acorn partner at the time. In 1995, he represented Acorn in a key case upholding the new Motor Voter Act -- the very law whose mandated postcard registration system Acorn workers use to flood election offices with bogus registrations.

Obama is teaching Alinsky's principles of "Power Analysis" and "Relationships built on self-interest" as seen written upon the blackboard

I’ve been fighting alongside ACORN on issues you care about my entire career. Even before I was an elected official, when I ran Project Vote voter registration drive in Illinois, ACORN was smack dab in the middle of it, and we appreciate your work. — Barack Obama, Speech to ACORN, November 2007

Source:

Obama started building the base years before. For instance, ACORN noticed him when he was organizing on the far south side of the city with the Developing Communities Project. He was a very good organizer. When he returned from law school, we asked him to help us with a lawsuit to challenge the state of Illinois' refusal to abide by the National Voting Rights Act, also known as motor voter. Allied only with the state of Mississippi, Illinois had been refusing to allow mass-based voter registration according to the new law. Obama took the case, known as ACORN vs. Edgar (the name of the Republican governor at the time) and we won. Obama then went on to run a voter registration project with Project VOTE in 1992 that made it possible for Carol Moseley Braun to win the Senate that year. Project VOTE delivered 50,000 newly registered voters in that campaign (ACORN delivered about 5000 of them).

In fact, this website run by the Democratic Natl Committee
says this:

Discredited Republican voter-suppression guru Ken Blackwell is attacking Barack Obama with naked lies about his supposed connection to ACORN.

• Fact: Barack was never an ACORN community organizer.
• Fact: ACORN never hired Obama as a trainer, organizer, or any type of employee.
• Fact: ACORN was not part of Project Vote, the successful voter registration drive Barack ran in 1992.

The Community Reinvestment Act Passed by the Carter Administration in 1977
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act

Classic CPS to overload the system and cause it to crash.

Source: THE WEIGHT OF THE POOR - A STRATEGY TO END POVERTY

By crisis, we mean a publicly visible disruption in some institutional sphere. Crisis can occur spontaneously (e.g., riots) or as the intended result of tactics of demonstration and protest which either generate institutional disruption or bring unrecognized disruption to public attention.

Hillary Clinton's Thesis on Saul Alinsky
http://www.freedomunderground.org/Hilla ... Thesis.pdf

BS Snipped.....

When presented with the facts you still refuse to see. Just as I said you wouldn't.

Does it not concern you that on the DNC's own website they are blatantly lying about Obamas involvement with ACORN?

"The NVRA has nothing to do with CPS. Dismissed."

This has everything to do with it. It is about the ability to commit voter fraud.

"Acorn registering voters has nothing to do with CPS. Dismissed"

See above.

"Obama once working for an agency affiliated (at that point) to Acorn has nothing to do with CPS. Dismissed."

The source said that Obama worked as a trainer for ACORN.

"Obama drawing a chart of Alinsky doesn't prove any endorsement of Alinsky or CPS or that it was being 'taught in classrooms' or to community organisers. At best, it might show that Obama (once) lectured about the principles Dismissed."

This shows that he knows and teaches Alinksy

Obama praising Acorn workers has nothing to do with CPS. Dismissed.

ACORN is the embodiment of CPS

Again, you are saying a lot, but saying nothing. You have no leg to stand on, the facts speak for themselves.