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Military Service

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Free South Califas
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Founded: May 22, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Free South Califas » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:19 am

Militaries should be organized from the bottom up, with elected tacticians and temporary commanders under the threat of instant recall, and should exist in a state of organizational servitude to the security of the civilian population against external violence. If used for attack, it should focus on a campaign of terror against domestic slavers, human-traffickers, and union-busting employers, to the extent that this is allowed by the civilian population; while providing material and moral support to anti-authoritarian struggles in other countries where so authorized. I would be enthusiastic to serve a tour in that infantry, personally.

Under the current regime, the US military is organized as a hierarchy in service of the corporate backers of the executive and legislative branches. It currently serves the interests of a small splinter of civil society, much of it consisting of people whose major contribution to society is supplying goods and services to the military itself. It is a recursively-corrupted meta-organization whose every nook and cranny has a secret big or small: much shall be legally hidden from you as a soldier, while other laws are broken by indispensable technicians and the sergeants and lieutenants who are compelled to keep their secrets. Integrity is rare, and rarely goes unpunished. You will sign away more rights than you can reasonably be expected to understand, and will become an easy mark for exploitation with your freshly deindividualized mind and your underpaid, potentially exhausting work. Even in the Guard, you're more likely to see combat than your recruiter would ever admit, and if you do see combat, you're likely to contract an injury or illness that will be inadequately treated to the extent that you depend on the military; PTSD, TBI and MST are insanely common in the US military, as is suicidality.

You will be taught to venerate power and become fundamentally obedient, but you will be punished if you receive an illegal order (whether or not you carry it out). Your capacity to develop independent political opinions will be weakened, as by any association, but especially so by an explicitly authoritarian organization. The sphere of your normal life will be partially displaced from those of your countrymen, but mostly in the most grueling and soul-crushing ways, leading many of your colleagues to resent your fellow Americans and the rule of law, and tempting you to join them. You will learn to prioritize the government's needs over your own, endangering your capacity to participate in a democratic society. You will lose the respect of your freedom-loving countrymen, who will fear and in some cases despise you, especially if you are stationed amidst a culture clash in a hostile city. You will expose yourself as the first non-VIP, non-Super-Bowl type target on any terrorist "pro/con" list, while being treated by your own military organization as an enthusiastic would-be criminal who is barely kept in line by micromanaging your life choices. You will be a target on planes and in foreign countries, potentially seeing your freedom of movement restricted. What few benefits you are considered to have earned in society, you will have to fight and scrap for, and you may miss out on significant chunks of them because you were distracted during the short window of time you had to sign up for them. What few freedoms you retain will often be kept more or less secret from you until it is too late to use them, etc.

On that note, remember to read every word that you are asked to sign, and if you do sign a contract, remember that you can walk away from it freely, with absolutely no consequences, through the first 72 hours of Basic Military Training ("boot camp") only. Familiarize yourself with relevant passages of the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice), especially trainee rights and responsibilities, whistleblower rights, protest/dissent/speech rights (and lack thereof), etc. You will meet superiors who abuse their power, give you illegal orders and/or attempt to control your behavior in ways that they do not have the authority to do. For example, remember that no political or cultural organization is illegal for a soldier to be a member of except for white-supremacist groups, but it is also illegal to criticize the president during wartime or refuse involvement in any kind of war action (except for illegal orders which, again, you will probably be punished for receiving one way or the other).
Last edited by Free South Califas on Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Greed and Death
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Posts: 53383
Founded: Mar 20, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Greed and Death » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:27 am

Souseiseki wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Well I've just told my mother about my decision over dinner, that parts over.
Now I just need to have a doctor look at my back and see if anything needs to be done so I can pass my physical.

but really

aren't you like a flithy pinko lefty

plenty of leftist in the military actually.

One's economic position is independent of ones view of service.
"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house."(paraphrase from debate with Hilary Clinton)
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Istrien
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Founded: Mar 18, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Istrien » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:34 am

I've considered enlisting but admittedly I have romantic ideas about armed service. I'm also reluctant because I have would serious problems fighting in a conflict which I see as unnecessary or even wrong.

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Greed and Death
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Founded: Mar 20, 2008
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Postby Greed and Death » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:36 am

Istrien wrote:I've considered enlisting but admittedly I have romantic ideas about armed service. I'm also reluctant because I have would serious problems fighting in a conflict which I see as unnecessary or even wrong.

Don't worry the chips they install remove all thought of wrong or unnecessary.
"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house."(paraphrase from debate with Hilary Clinton)
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Immoren
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Postby Immoren » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:33 am

Free South Califas wrote:Militaries should be organized from the bottom up, with elected tacticians and temporary commanders under the threat of instant recall,


Because this has worked so well in those militaries that have used it. *sarcasm*
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Greed and Death
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Founded: Mar 20, 2008
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Postby Greed and Death » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:35 am

Immoren wrote:
Free South Califas wrote:Militaries should be organized from the bottom up, with elected tacticians and temporary commanders under the threat of instant recall,


Because this has worked so well in those militaries that have used it. *sarcasm*

Several successful militias have used elected officers.
Both the American and Texan revolutions had such systems.


However a regular army existed in both cases as the core to direct said elected officers.
"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house."(paraphrase from debate with Hilary Clinton)
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Arkinesia
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Posts: 13210
Founded: Aug 22, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Arkinesia » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:59 am

Genivaria wrote:
The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) is an independent civilian intelligence agency of the United States government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_In ... nce_Agency

Even though it technically is a civilian intelligence agency, I always hesitate to refer to the CIA as a civilian agency.
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Franklin Delano Bluth
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Founded: Apr 13, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Franklin Delano Bluth » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:28 pm

What do I think about the military? I think that the military is an outright cancer on a free society. Its values, its activities, its mere existence are antithetical to liberty, and those who participate in and support it are, by spreading and promoting those values, doing nothing but making this country worse and worse.

It needs to be abolished. If I actually cared about patriotism, I'd question the patriotism of those who think it's necessary to "protect this country": aside from the fact that it makes matters worse, that it makes this country less safe and more vulnerable, you obviously have a low opinion of your country if you think it's so weak that it can't survive and recover from taking one on the chin without stooping to the depraved and always-unjustifiable level of violence itself.
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Greed and Death
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Founded: Mar 20, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Greed and Death » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:29 pm

Arkinesia wrote:

Even though it technically is a civilian intelligence agency, I always hesitate to refer to the CIA as a civilian agency.

I tend to refer to it as our true government.
"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house."(paraphrase from debate with Hilary Clinton)
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Yankee Empire
Senator
 
Posts: 4186
Founded: Aug 01, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Yankee Empire » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:30 pm

Franklin Delano Bluth wrote:What do I think about the military? I think that the military is an outright cancer on a free society. Its values, its activities, its mere existence are antithetical to liberty, and those who participate in and support it are, by spreading and promoting those values, doing nothing but making this country worse and worse.

It needs to be abolished. If I actually cared about patriotism, I'd question the patriotism of those who think it's necessary to "protect this country": aside from the fact that it makes matters worse, that it makes this country less safe and more vulnerable, you obviously have a low opinion of your country if you think it's so weak that it can't survive and recover from taking one on the chin without stooping to the depraved and always-unjustifiable level of violence itself.


I hope wherever you live gets attacked by militants and i hope some of your countrymen save your ass, so you can kiss their feet for being such a naive idiot.
Economic Left/Right: -6.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.05


Pro: U.S.,Diplomatic Militarism, Imperialism, Patriotism/Civic Nationalism, Cosmopolitanism, Stoicism, Authoritarianism, Classical Liberalism, Unionism, Centralization (usually), Federalism, Corporatism.
Anti:Tribalism, Seccessionism(usually),Decentralization,Pure Capitalism/State controlled economics, Misanthropy,Cruelty, Cowardice, Pacifism,Hedonism, Corporitocracy.
Vice-Chairman of the National-Imperialist-FreedomParty
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."-Carl Schurz

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Sapiens Isles
Envoy
 
Posts: 281
Founded: Oct 01, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Sapiens Isles » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:31 pm

Both of my brothers are in the Canadian Forces, but I guess that's different from the American National Guard. If anyone happens to be curious about my brothers' experiences, you can ask me.
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Economic Left/Right: -5.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.33

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Genivaria
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Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:32 pm

Franklin Delano Bluth wrote:What do I think about the military? I think that the military is an outright cancer on a free society. Its values, its activities, its mere existence are antithetical to liberty, and those who participate in and support it are, by spreading and promoting those values, doing nothing but making this country worse and worse.

It needs to be abolished. If I actually cared about patriotism, I'd question the patriotism of those who think it's necessary to "protect this country": aside from the fact that it makes matters worse, that it makes this country less safe and more vulnerable, you obviously have a low opinion of your country if you think it's so weak that it can't survive and recover from taking one on the chin without stooping to the depraved and always-unjustifiable level of violence itself.

Protecting my country? Bitch please I'm signing up for the Dental. :p
And I'm hardly 'patriotic'.

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Yankee Empire
Senator
 
Posts: 4186
Founded: Aug 01, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Yankee Empire » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:33 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Franklin Delano Bluth wrote:What do I think about the military? I think that the military is an outright cancer on a free society. Its values, its activities, its mere existence are antithetical to liberty, and those who participate in and support it are, by spreading and promoting those values, doing nothing but making this country worse and worse.

It needs to be abolished. If I actually cared about patriotism, I'd question the patriotism of those who think it's necessary to "protect this country": aside from the fact that it makes matters worse, that it makes this country less safe and more vulnerable, you obviously have a low opinion of your country if you think it's so weak that it can't survive and recover from taking one on the chin without stooping to the depraved and always-unjustifiable level of violence itself.

Protecting my country? Bitch please I'm signing up for the Dental. :p
And I'm hardly 'patriotic'.


Then you shouldn't join.
Economic Left/Right: -6.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.05


Pro: U.S.,Diplomatic Militarism, Imperialism, Patriotism/Civic Nationalism, Cosmopolitanism, Stoicism, Authoritarianism, Classical Liberalism, Unionism, Centralization (usually), Federalism, Corporatism.
Anti:Tribalism, Seccessionism(usually),Decentralization,Pure Capitalism/State controlled economics, Misanthropy,Cruelty, Cowardice, Pacifism,Hedonism, Corporitocracy.
Vice-Chairman of the National-Imperialist-FreedomParty
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."-Carl Schurz

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Genivaria
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Posts: 69943
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:33 pm

Yankee Empire wrote:
Franklin Delano Bluth wrote:What do I think about the military? I think that the military is an outright cancer on a free society. Its values, its activities, its mere existence are antithetical to liberty, and those who participate in and support it are, by spreading and promoting those values, doing nothing but making this country worse and worse.

It needs to be abolished. If I actually cared about patriotism, I'd question the patriotism of those who think it's necessary to "protect this country": aside from the fact that it makes matters worse, that it makes this country less safe and more vulnerable, you obviously have a low opinion of your country if you think it's so weak that it can't survive and recover from taking one on the chin without stooping to the depraved and always-unjustifiable level of violence itself.


I hope wherever you live gets attacked by militants and i hope some of your countrymen save your ass, so you can kiss their feet for being such a naive idiot.

Please don't flame, it demeans us all.

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Yankee Empire
Senator
 
Posts: 4186
Founded: Aug 01, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Yankee Empire » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:33 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Yankee Empire wrote:
I hope wherever you live gets attacked by militants and i hope some of your countrymen save your ass, so you can kiss their feet for being such a naive idiot.

Please don't flame, it demeans us all.


I'm not flaming and he demeans himself.
Economic Left/Right: -6.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.05


Pro: U.S.,Diplomatic Militarism, Imperialism, Patriotism/Civic Nationalism, Cosmopolitanism, Stoicism, Authoritarianism, Classical Liberalism, Unionism, Centralization (usually), Federalism, Corporatism.
Anti:Tribalism, Seccessionism(usually),Decentralization,Pure Capitalism/State controlled economics, Misanthropy,Cruelty, Cowardice, Pacifism,Hedonism, Corporitocracy.
Vice-Chairman of the National-Imperialist-FreedomParty
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."-Carl Schurz

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Genivaria
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Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:33 pm

Yankee Empire wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Protecting my country? Bitch please I'm signing up for the Dental. :p
And I'm hardly 'patriotic'.


Then you shouldn't join.

That is your opinion.

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Genivaria
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Posts: 69943
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:34 pm

Yankee Empire wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Please don't flame, it demeans us all.


I'm not flaming and he demeans himself.

Personal insults is flaming.

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Yankee Empire
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Posts: 4186
Founded: Aug 01, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Yankee Empire » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:35 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Yankee Empire wrote:
Then you shouldn't join.

That is your opinion.

Yes it is, why'd you feel the need to explain that to me?
I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic, but if your only reason to join is for incentives then you shouldn't join.

I'm a militarist and plan on joining myself early next year at latest, and I don't want someone half assing their duties.
Economic Left/Right: -6.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.05


Pro: U.S.,Diplomatic Militarism, Imperialism, Patriotism/Civic Nationalism, Cosmopolitanism, Stoicism, Authoritarianism, Classical Liberalism, Unionism, Centralization (usually), Federalism, Corporatism.
Anti:Tribalism, Seccessionism(usually),Decentralization,Pure Capitalism/State controlled economics, Misanthropy,Cruelty, Cowardice, Pacifism,Hedonism, Corporitocracy.
Vice-Chairman of the National-Imperialist-FreedomParty
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."-Carl Schurz

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Yankee Empire
Senator
 
Posts: 4186
Founded: Aug 01, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Yankee Empire » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:36 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Yankee Empire wrote:
I'm not flaming and he demeans himself.

Personal insults is flaming.


But broad insults against whole sections of society aren't?
Last edited by Yankee Empire on Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Economic Left/Right: -6.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.05


Pro: U.S.,Diplomatic Militarism, Imperialism, Patriotism/Civic Nationalism, Cosmopolitanism, Stoicism, Authoritarianism, Classical Liberalism, Unionism, Centralization (usually), Federalism, Corporatism.
Anti:Tribalism, Seccessionism(usually),Decentralization,Pure Capitalism/State controlled economics, Misanthropy,Cruelty, Cowardice, Pacifism,Hedonism, Corporitocracy.
Vice-Chairman of the National-Imperialist-FreedomParty
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."-Carl Schurz

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Genivaria
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Posts: 69943
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:37 pm

Yankee Empire wrote:
Genivaria wrote:That is your opinion.

Yes it is, why'd you feel the need to explain that to me?
I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic, but if your only reason to join is for incentives then you shouldn't join.

I'm a militarist and plan on joining myself early next year at latest, and I don't want someone half assing their duties.

I wouldn't be 'half-assing' anything. Perhaps you shouldn't presume such things.

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Souseiseki
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19625
Founded: Apr 12, 2012
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Souseiseki » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:41 pm

Yankee Empire wrote:
Franklin Delano Bluth wrote:What do I think about the military? I think that the military is an outright cancer on a free society. Its values, its activities, its mere existence are antithetical to liberty, and those who participate in and support it are, by spreading and promoting those values, doing nothing but making this country worse and worse.

It needs to be abolished. If I actually cared about patriotism, I'd question the patriotism of those who think it's necessary to "protect this country": aside from the fact that it makes matters worse, that it makes this country less safe and more vulnerable, you obviously have a low opinion of your country if you think it's so weak that it can't survive and recover from taking one on the chin without stooping to the depraved and always-unjustifiable level of violence itself.


I hope wherever you live gets attacked by militants and i hope some of your countrymen save your ass, so you can kiss their feet for being such a naive idiot.

last time there were real militants in our country and we sent countrymen in to save peoples asses they ended up shooting unarmed protestors in the back

now i'm not saying you're a naive idiot like you called the other guy, because i'm a nice person on the internet, but i'm just saying that even if it doesn't end up in massacres there's a pretty big chance they still won't kiss the soldiers feet ):
ask moderation about reading serious moderation candidates TGs without telling them about it until afterwards and/or apparently refusing to confirm/deny the exact timeline of TG reading ~~~ i hope you never sent any of the recent mods or the ones that got really close anything personal!

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Yankee Empire
Senator
 
Posts: 4186
Founded: Aug 01, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Yankee Empire » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:41 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Yankee Empire wrote:Yes it is, why'd you feel the need to explain that to me?
I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic, but if your only reason to join is for incentives then you shouldn't join.

I'm a militarist and plan on joining myself early next year at latest, and I don't want someone half assing their duties.

I wouldn't be 'half-assing' anything. Perhaps you shouldn't presume such things.

I base it on the premise that someone joining specifically for perks and not a sense of patriotism or personal duty would not be as motivated or dedicated to their tasks in the military, I guess there's no wisdom in that presumption?
Economic Left/Right: -6.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.05


Pro: U.S.,Diplomatic Militarism, Imperialism, Patriotism/Civic Nationalism, Cosmopolitanism, Stoicism, Authoritarianism, Classical Liberalism, Unionism, Centralization (usually), Federalism, Corporatism.
Anti:Tribalism, Seccessionism(usually),Decentralization,Pure Capitalism/State controlled economics, Misanthropy,Cruelty, Cowardice, Pacifism,Hedonism, Corporitocracy.
Vice-Chairman of the National-Imperialist-FreedomParty
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."-Carl Schurz

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Souseiseki
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19625
Founded: Apr 12, 2012
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Souseiseki » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:44 pm

Yankee Empire wrote:
Genivaria wrote:I wouldn't be 'half-assing' anything. Perhaps you shouldn't presume such things.

I base it on the premise that someone joining specifically for perks and not a sense of patriotism or personal duty would not be as motivated or dedicated to their tasks in the military, I guess there's no wisdom in that presumption?

people seem to manage to do jobs they aren't doing out of love all the time pretty well
ask moderation about reading serious moderation candidates TGs without telling them about it until afterwards and/or apparently refusing to confirm/deny the exact timeline of TG reading ~~~ i hope you never sent any of the recent mods or the ones that got really close anything personal!

signature edit: confirmation has been received. they will explicitly do it before and without asking. they can look at TGs basically whenever they want so please keep this in mind when nominating people for moderator or TGing good posters/anyone!
T <---- THE INFAMOUS T

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Souseiseki
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19625
Founded: Apr 12, 2012
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Souseiseki » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:48 pm

Yankee Empire wrote:
Genivaria wrote:That is your opinion.

Yes it is, why'd you feel the need to explain that to me?
I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic, but if your only reason to join is for incentives then you shouldn't join.

I'm a militarist and plan on joining myself early next year at latest, and I don't want someone half assing their duties.

so, what do you think the chances are of you ending up the next smedley butler? roughtly.
ask moderation about reading serious moderation candidates TGs without telling them about it until afterwards and/or apparently refusing to confirm/deny the exact timeline of TG reading ~~~ i hope you never sent any of the recent mods or the ones that got really close anything personal!

signature edit: confirmation has been received. they will explicitly do it before and without asking. they can look at TGs basically whenever they want so please keep this in mind when nominating people for moderator or TGing good posters/anyone!
T <---- THE INFAMOUS T

User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 69943
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:50 pm

Yankee Empire wrote:
Genivaria wrote:I wouldn't be 'half-assing' anything. Perhaps you shouldn't presume such things.

I base it on the premise that someone joining specifically for perks and not a sense of patriotism or personal duty would not be as motivated or dedicated to their tasks in the military, I guess there's no wisdom in that presumption?

No there's not.
People work their asses off all the time at their place of business, doesn't mean they love the company it means they enjoy eating.

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