NATION

PASSWORD

Plausible WW2 alternate histories, go

A coffee shop for those who like to discuss art, music, books, movies, TV, each other's own works, and existential angst.
User avatar
Royal Frankia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 591
Founded: Apr 21, 2016
Father Knows Best State

Plausible WW2 alternate histories, go

Postby Royal Frankia » Wed May 04, 2022 9:46 am

OOC: Creative, but within limits. Make the outcome and the war as good or as bad as possible. 1939-however long the war lasts

1940-1941

America does not provoke Japan to bomb Pearl Harbor by not placing an oil embargo upon the land of the Rising Sun. This leads to a prolonged war with China, which they cannot win due to the sheer scale of the nation and the fierce resistance they encountered. Sooner or later, the cost of maintaining such troop levels will force them to either scale down or withdraw from the nation within the next decade.

Operation Sealion never occurs and the Uboat campaign, successful in the beginning, ultimately fails as they cannot sink tonnage fast enough. They begin to suffer losses, that gradually mount, which will grow much worse when the US Navy enters in full with far more naval resources.

1942-1943

Pearl Harbor's absence means a later entry of the US into the European War, with Operation Torch delayed. Still, Rommel is under supported, and pressed back gradually by the British who are able to move reinforcements from the Far East with greater ease. When the US does enter the conflict, the North African campaign is brought to a close in the same manner.

Meanwhile, on the Eastern Front, the Germans are sent reeling as they overstretched their supply lines. Stalingrad still plays out, but the Germans are able to succeed somewhat under Manstein. They are better supported from the air, but such matters little on the Eastern Front. Operation Citadel is more successful, but the Germans are still bled white with heavier losses, and are forced to adapt a defensive strategy. The Soviets incur heavier losses, as troops not sent to Italy have been thrown in by the Germans, but they still maintain the advantage. They will continue to launch counter-attacks in the future, concentrating where the Germans are weak.

The US does not seek to acquire an atomic program, its expense being seen as too great for an unproven concept. It desires to fight this war conventionally, putting such funding into more bombers, tanks, planes, and ships.

1944-1945

Italy capitulates after the successful invasion of Sicily, but Mussolini is able to escape to the Reich before he is betrayed. Hitler sends forces into Italy, just at the same time as the Western Allies invade the southern peninsula from the south. The Allied offensive is stalled, and the fighting drags on as the south is mountainous and not country suitable for modern warfare. Rome falls in 1945, with the Allies pushing to the Po to be halted by the Axis.

The Eastern Front collapses after Operation Bagration, with Army Group Center virtually annihilated. German reinforcements are rushed to the East, as the Soviets take advantage to press forward through the gap made. They begin to withdraw in the face of renewed assaults by the Red Army, though they conduct a scorched earth campaign as they did in otl. This slows the Soviet juggernaut, as well as Lend Lease coming about somewhat later. Still, the Germans can only conduct localized counterattacks, while the Soviets hurl a seeming endless wave of tanks and men into the meatgrinder.

By late 1945 and early 1946, the Germans are driven to the Vistula with their forces in the Baltic being cut off. Romania changes sides after the destruction of the revived 6th Army, with Bulgaria following suit. Hungary remains a faithful ally of the Reich, while forces are now withdrawn from Greece and Yugoslavia to handle the disaster which is unfolding. Finland signs a separate peace with the Soviets, giving up claims to its lost territories. The Warsaw Uprising is crushed, destroying the Home Army, while the Soviets prepare to launch their campaign in Poland.

East Prussia is cut off and Warsaw falls, trapping significant numbers of German forces. The fighting is savage, with atrocities committed against the German population in retaliation for the German actions within the Soviet Union. The German population flees West, to escape the Red Army.

West Germany has been devastated by the bomber campaigns, though it is now producing more under Speer than it had prior. Slave labor and pows are utilized to a greater extent, but it is not enough to match the output of the Soviets or the Allies. The Germans are bled to the death in the East, while in the West the Allies now launch Operation Overlord against a weakened beachhead.

In 1946, there is a successful attempt on Hitler's life, bringing Himmler to power. His attempt to make peace with the Western Allies is derailed, as in the East the Soviets have uncovered camps such as Auschwitz and have released files as regards to Nazi attempts at genocide. The Allies press on into France, liberating Paris, while forces are landed in southern France which press northwards. The Germans, with weakened forces, are forced to withdraw to the east towards the Low Countries and their own border.

The Allies outmatch the Germans in manpower, tanks, and airpower. Due to their rapid advance, they pause to get their supply chain in order. Depots are established, and the Germans do not possess the resources to take advantage of this as only a skeleton force is left in the West. Holland is liberated by Commonwealth forces, which include troops from Australia and New Zealand, though it is primarily Canadian. Granted, Holland has been ravaged by starvation, in which resources have been stripped to feed the Germans.

1947-

The West is quiet, while the Soviets have renewed their offensives. They advance into Hungary and have driven the Germans back into Germany itself. Berlin is on the horizon, but the Soviets must wait until they bring their overstretched forces to strength. The Germans succeed in some localized counter-attacks, which are quickly regained by the Soviets. Soon, the Soviets bring 2 million men to close on Berlin, while German offensives in Hungary result in the destruction of such forces.

Himmler is overthrown as the Western Allies cross the Rhine, and German forces are withdrawn from Italy now in earnest. Mussolini is hanged in Milan, while Goebbels attempts to rally the nation against the hordes of the East. Most of Western Germany is falling rapidly to the Allies, but the Soviets have advanced further than they did historically as the Battle for Berlin has begun. They reach the border of Denmark, and soon the East Germany which is to come will be much larger.

Berlin falls, and is virtually destroyed, though the Soviets have incurred greater casualties. The Allies meet and celebrate the Fall of the Reich, while the government under Donitz negotiates a peace with the Allies in May of 1947. The Soviets have incurred a greater number of casualties, but have extended the Iron Curtain westwards. The US under Truman plans to maintain a force in Western Germany, though many forces are demobilized and sent back to the States.

1948-1950s post-war

The Western nations are devastated and Socialist governments take power, establishing welfare states. De Gaulle, who was killed in 1940, is not there to reform the republic which soon gives way to two other republics before stabilization. The US gives Marshal Aid to the Western powers and defers their debts, though it is much smaller than previously. The grip of the European powers is forever broken, and they withdraw leaving chaos in their wake by 1950. India is lost by Britain, the African colonies soon follow, and there are risings in the Middle East.

The Holocaust has killed far more than in our timeline, with the few Jews that remained migrating to the United States. Monarchies dominate the Middle East, being seen as a bulwark against Soviet expansion. Israel never comes into existence, with the Arab powers becoming more focused on differences of sect. Iraq is a basketcase, Egypt is aligned to the West, Persia turns to the Soviet bloc, and Turkey opts to join the new NATO which has formed.

The Communists are successful in Greece, with the assistance of Titoist forces. The death of Stalin causes chaos in the Soviet bloc, but soon Marshal Zhukov takes the reins after a successful coup against Beria. He will be displaced by Khrushchev, but both do not withdraw Soviet forces from the Eastern satellites. A rising against the Communists is crushed in East Germany, Austria, and Hungary with great violence. Yugoslavia breaks off all ties, and the two eye each other with contempt.

Japan is still militaristic, but has yielded to circumstances, and has withdrawn to Manchuria in the face of the the Nationalist counter-attacks. Their only success has been annihilating the forces of the Communists, with Mao being killed in a skirmish with Japanese forces. The West turns its focus to the East, opting to bring the Japanese into their orbit while the Nationalists gravitate towards the Soviets now that the Communist threat is eliminated. China is lost to the West, but it has been ravaged by Japanese.

The Japanese remain strong in Manchuria, Korea, and Formosa. Indochina has never been occupied, and it gains its independence following the French withdrawal. The Japanese, with the support of the US, intervene to the halt the spread of Communism. The Chinese support the Vietnamese and send reinforcements, in which both sides once more are killing each other. This drags on, until the Japanese evacuate the country in earnest
Last edited by Royal Frankia on Wed May 04, 2022 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
O Pious, do not forsake us!
We keep the Law of the Mater Atkana.
Her name is ever upon our tongue.
O Pious, do not forget the Children of Atkane!
What must rise, must fall. What must live, must die. What must be, must cease. Only the One shall remain.

Annals in the time of Ynga II-Factbook
Atkana the Merciful, Blessed be She and Her Beloved Norva

User avatar
Bendicion
Minister
 
Posts: 2228
Founded: Nov 19, 2012
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Bendicion » Sun May 08, 2022 8:00 am

Mac Arthur sticks to the War Orange plan. They stack moe supplies, food and ammunition in Bataan. And manage to stave off the Japanese not for 5 months, but longer than 12 months. Really think this wouldve struck the IJN and IJA timetables off course.

Like talking about history and dreaming of Rome. Join now our Discord server and enlist in the legions
Author of ‘Ben was here o/‘
Self Proclaimed Server Hamster
♖ Sic Parvis Magna ♖
From Small Beginnings, Great Things

>>> BENDICION | A STORY KEPT SAFE <<<

NS Issues Work Bench
I like quiet | I hate insensitivity | Perseverance is my drug
Chaotic Sparkles,c.2023 wrote:this was just one hamster that took on the world and that hamster has now been maintained as governor.
The Sapientia, c.2014 wrote:”You'll be back. Once you start , you can never stop”
LWU gtrf0129 c. 2022 wrote:This raid was so powerful that the power went out in my house lol

User avatar
Reorganized Portugal
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 397
Founded: Mar 13, 2022
Ex-Nation

Postby Reorganized Portugal » Sun May 08, 2022 10:38 am

FDR doesn't die in 1945 and survives his full fourth term. He actually informs the Soviets that he will drop the bombs, so it isn't such a big surprise in the USSR. Still, not much changes. Japan surrenders and everything post war goes according to plan. The Truman Doctrine is not issued in 1947, however, so the Cold War doesn't truly begin until Vice President Harry S. Truman is elected in 1948, which has him issue it around 1949-1950.
Reorganized Kingdom of Portugal
Capital: Lisbon | Religion: Roman Catholic | TLA: POR
Overview | Constitution | Embassy Program
RTP International News: Nacradian President comes out as transgender | Among Us 2 sells 20 million copies | W h y

RTP Domestic News: Crown Prince Afonso's wife Maria ill | Whales spotted in Madeira | Parliament rejects anti-smoking law
Twilight's Last Gleaming
Congressman Daniel P. Kaheo'ole (D-HI-2)

Nation in Turmoil
Jose Antonio Rabellino
Year: 2026

User avatar
Bistritza
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 114
Founded: Apr 20, 2022
Ex-Nation

Not over-used, seems minor, major consequences

Postby Bistritza » Sun May 08, 2022 10:14 pm

Imperial Japan discovers that the Kuril Islands do, in fact, host a lot of needed natural resources (coal, oil and gas).


  • Implications:
  • Japan does not actually intervene in Indochina or the Indonesian Archipelago
  • Japan uses the opportunity of Operation Barbarossa to capture the remaining Kuril Islands
  • Japan decides to utilize Russian Far East and Siberian populations in their struggle to overtake mainland China
  • Japan incites rebellions in Central Asia, Mongolia, Xinjiang and Tibet


Post-War Scenario (Defeated Germany)
  • Japan leads the struggle of anti-colonialism in British Raj, Indochina and the Indonesian Archipelago
  • Due to prior Japanese influence, the USSR decentralizes, possibly losing its' communist characteristics.
  • Japan is the new rival for USA.


Post-War Scenario (Victorious Germany)
  • Japan creates 'liberated' satellites east of the Urals where the Soviet people can steadily redevelop.
  • Japan challenges German control on the Caspian-Persian Gulf strip.
  • Japan retains control over Kamchatka-Alaska-Cascadia line.
  • New colonial regimes are established in the Raj, Indochina, Indonesian Archipelago, Pacifics and Australia.
  • Japan and Germany replace the real-life split between USSR and USA. The Cold War is lead on the basis of a racial war instead of an ideological war.

Main Nation | General Info | The Constitution | NSEconomy Stats | Military Info, Main and Puppets
Other nations | BeeStreetz, Political Parties, More Info | Bistritza TSP-MP Representative, The Regional Alliance
Mediums: Hard OOC; Soft OOC; Soft IC; Hard IC | The accounts' posts are rarely Hard OOC.

User avatar
Bendicion
Minister
 
Posts: 2228
Founded: Nov 19, 2012
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Bendicion » Sun May 08, 2022 11:25 pm

Bistritza wrote:Imperial Japan discovers that the Kuril Islands do, in fact, host a lot of needed natural resources (coal, oil and gas).


  • Implications:
  • Japan does not actually intervene in Indochina or the Indonesian Archipelago
  • Japan uses the opportunity of Operation Barbarossa to capture the remaining Kuril Islands
  • Japan decides to utilize Russian Far East and Siberian populations in their struggle to overtake mainland China
  • Japan incites rebellions in Central Asia, Mongolia, Xinjiang and Tibet


Post-War Scenario (Defeated Germany)
  • Japan leads the struggle of anti-colonialism in British Raj, Indochina and the Indonesian Archipelago
  • Due to prior Japanese influence, the USSR decentralizes, possibly losing its' communist characteristics.
  • Japan is the new rival for USA.


Post-War Scenario (Victorious Germany)
  • Japan creates 'liberated' satellites east of the Urals where the Soviet people can steadily redevelop.
  • Japan challenges German control on the Caspian-Persian Gulf strip.
  • Japan retains control over Kamchatka-Alaska-Cascadia line.
  • New colonial regimes are established in the Raj, Indochina, Indonesian Archipelago, Pacifics and Australia.
  • Japan and Germany replace the real-life split between USSR and USA. The Cold War is lead on the basis of a racial war instead of an ideological war.


Very interesting. I saw a video about this view that Japan couldve gone for the Kuril in Youtube too.

Like talking about history and dreaming of Rome. Join now our Discord server and enlist in the legions
Author of ‘Ben was here o/‘
Self Proclaimed Server Hamster
♖ Sic Parvis Magna ♖
From Small Beginnings, Great Things

>>> BENDICION | A STORY KEPT SAFE <<<

NS Issues Work Bench
I like quiet | I hate insensitivity | Perseverance is my drug
Chaotic Sparkles,c.2023 wrote:this was just one hamster that took on the world and that hamster has now been maintained as governor.
The Sapientia, c.2014 wrote:”You'll be back. Once you start , you can never stop”
LWU gtrf0129 c. 2022 wrote:This raid was so powerful that the power went out in my house lol

User avatar
Bistritza
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 114
Founded: Apr 20, 2022
Ex-Nation

Postby Bistritza » Mon May 09, 2022 12:40 am

Bendicion wrote:Very interesting. I saw a video about this view that Japan couldve gone for the Kuril in Youtube too.

I think I've skimmed over the video in the past and it felt very Allied-centric to me. Either way, most alternate history literature fails in this regard. ''Axis win=Germany win''.
People using the Axis victory as a standard should keep in mind that Germany, like Britain, also had allies it depended on, allies who were as opinionated on matters as Germany was, allies who would question Germany in victory even more than they were questioned in defeat.
Main Nation | General Info | The Constitution | NSEconomy Stats | Military Info, Main and Puppets
Other nations | BeeStreetz, Political Parties, More Info | Bistritza TSP-MP Representative, The Regional Alliance
Mediums: Hard OOC; Soft OOC; Soft IC; Hard IC | The accounts' posts are rarely Hard OOC.

User avatar
Vavlarian 4
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Apr 27, 2022
Ex-Nation

Going to work on this for some time.

Postby Vavlarian 4 » Mon May 09, 2022 7:29 am

The canals in the Netherlands is flooded in the late summer of 1944, as Allied troops approach. The Gothic Line has been pushed back, to around the borders of Lombardia, Liguria, Piedmont, Tyrol, and parts of Venice being captured by the Allies. Luckily, for the German soldiers in the Baltic and many other massive areas, except for Kursk, Kiev, Minsk, Odessa, and many other major cities, as the ones in towns and villages left knowing what would happen to them, using a scorched earth tactic of warfare, to cause the Soviets to loose major speed for two reasons: Over-extending Supply lines and not able to live the land. Not only would many people burn inside buildings or get executed as the Germans left, the Soviets were just as bad to the people that were liberated from the Germans, repressing and killing many people in the name of "freeing" the people "de-nazifying" them. The Ostland front reduced to the Dnieper and the Daguava river. The Rhineland front ever collapsing, and knowing that if the French pass the Maginot line into the Rhineland, the Germans will loose the war. Knowing that they have mistreated the Slavic locals so badly, that if they were to use them against the Soviets, and still won, the locals would fight Guerilla warfare against them. The Jews are no longer killed, and are given ok food, in attempts to help them gain more strength to work in the hard conditions at the camps. The local Slavs, are promised freedom against Stalin and equal rights to the "Aryan" races, if they help fight off the Soviets and is only a temporary distraction, and the Slavs know that it doesn't matter, so they choose to await their fate.
Last edited by Vavlarian 4 on Fri May 13, 2022 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Royal Frankia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 591
Founded: Apr 21, 2016
Father Knows Best State

Postby Royal Frankia » Tue May 10, 2022 10:57 am

Bistritza wrote:Imperial Japan discovers that the Kuril Islands do, in fact, host a lot of needed natural resources (coal, oil and gas).


  • Implications:
  • Japan does not actually intervene in Indochina or the Indonesian Archipelago
  • Japan uses the opportunity of Operation Barbarossa to capture the remaining Kuril Islands
  • Japan decides to utilize Russian Far East and Siberian populations in their struggle to overtake mainland China
  • Japan incites rebellions in Central Asia, Mongolia, Xinjiang and Tibet


Post-War Scenario (Defeated Germany)
  • Japan leads the struggle of anti-colonialism in British Raj, Indochina and the Indonesian Archipelago
  • Due to prior Japanese influence, the USSR decentralizes, possibly losing its' communist characteristics.
  • Japan is the new rival for USA.


Post-War Scenario (Victorious Germany)
  • Japan creates 'liberated' satellites east of the Urals where the Soviet people can steadily redevelop.
  • Japan challenges German control on the Caspian-Persian Gulf strip.
  • Japan retains control over Kamchatka-Alaska-Cascadia line.
  • New colonial regimes are established in the Raj, Indochina, Indonesian Archipelago, Pacifics and Australia.
  • Japan and Germany replace the real-life split between USSR and USA. The Cold War is lead on the basis of a racial war instead of an ideological war.



Main issue with this is the ability at that time of exploiting the deposits. The Soviets had an issue exploiting their oil reserves in Siberia until after WW2. Drilling methods change with time, with recent methods reviving America's role as a major oil producer.

Japan is still bogged down in China, and no matter how much they take they are still outnumbered/running things on a shoe string logistically. I believe rationing was introduced in Japan before Pearl Harbor, to cope with a war that was supposed to be over in 6 months that had lasted 4 years. OTL, the Japanese had a million men in China, even when the US was barking at their backdoor.
O Pious, do not forsake us!
We keep the Law of the Mater Atkana.
Her name is ever upon our tongue.
O Pious, do not forget the Children of Atkane!
What must rise, must fall. What must live, must die. What must be, must cease. Only the One shall remain.

Annals in the time of Ynga II-Factbook
Atkana the Merciful, Blessed be She and Her Beloved Norva

User avatar
Bendicion
Minister
 
Posts: 2228
Founded: Nov 19, 2012
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Bendicion » Tue May 10, 2022 8:42 pm

In my opinion, Japan simply would have not had enough resources to win even if they won at Midway. They were stretched too thin across China, Burma, and across the many Pacific Islands. Maybe they could have pulled it somehow, especially if Germany had managed to successfully invade the Soviet Union, but still, the USA would have just continued to outproduce Japan in terms of weapons, equipment, men and material.

However, if Japan did manage to invade PNG and Australia successfully, that might be a huge positive factor since its basically a resource continent. But an insurgency would still have taken place. Dont know how long that will last if the USA somehow wasnt able to send troops their way to liberate them.

Like talking about history and dreaming of Rome. Join now our Discord server and enlist in the legions
Author of ‘Ben was here o/‘
Self Proclaimed Server Hamster
♖ Sic Parvis Magna ♖
From Small Beginnings, Great Things

>>> BENDICION | A STORY KEPT SAFE <<<

NS Issues Work Bench
I like quiet | I hate insensitivity | Perseverance is my drug
Chaotic Sparkles,c.2023 wrote:this was just one hamster that took on the world and that hamster has now been maintained as governor.
The Sapientia, c.2014 wrote:”You'll be back. Once you start , you can never stop”
LWU gtrf0129 c. 2022 wrote:This raid was so powerful that the power went out in my house lol

User avatar
Memer Island
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 18
Founded: Jul 20, 2022
Ex-Nation

Postby Memer Island » Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:18 pm

1939-1945, same exact thing that happened, but Hitler decided to shoot himself before he killed his dog. The dog, now still alive and well, leads an effort to global change and peace resulting in eternal worldwide happiness.

Oh, plausible? Well, you never know.


Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to Arts & Fiction

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

Advertisement

Remove ads