Questioning Queer-Coding

[Stanmenistan]

Full title:Questioning Queer-Coding or:
How I Learned to Stop Overanalysing Children's Cartoons and Love the Dandy Lion

Not sure if this should be here or under the General Forum due to its relevance to the LGBTQ+ community, but this is about their representation in arts & fiction/pop culture.

You may have heard of the term Coding when it comes to representation in popular culture. This refers to when characters have traits that suggest certain real-life stereotypes or cultures without being explicit representations of the people those stereotypes are applied to (e.g. The Simpsons family in the Simpsons are coded white (suburban living, heteronormative nuclear family structure, mother as homemaker and father as worker), the water tribes in Avatar: The Last Airbender are Inuit-coded (brown skin, Igloos, hunting animals), the Empire in Star Wars are coded Nazis (Soldiers called Stormtroopers, the uniforms of the Empire officers are similar to the SS, both commit mass genocides and have racist policies toward minorities)). It's not just cultures and ethnicities, it can also refer to gender "coded" traits, stereotypes, or concepts or play on LGBTQ+ stereotypes, traits and characteristics, often in the form of hints, implications, subtext, innuendo and double entendre (AKA Queerbaiting).

It is the latter point I wish to address in this thread. Many discuss about certain villains, especially in Disney Animated Films, having stereotypically gay characteristics associated with them. However, some (not necessarily all) traditional examples I would question as simply being standard villain stuff. The baddies in The Hunger Games are meant to be coded as rich, upper-class elitists (cf. Metrosexuals, Dandies or Macaronis), Scar was meant to be coded as an ambitious British Dandy and Jafar was based on famous actors from classic horror movies.

Many Allegedly Queer-Coded characters are shown to be romantically interested in members of the opposite sex, such as Ursula (in her Vanessa Guise) tries to marry Prince Eric, Jafar being attracted to Jasmine (emphasised in the 2019 remake) and Scar is attracted to Nala (albeit in a deleted scene) and Scar is attracted to Sarabi in the 2019 Remake (and his widow Zira is in Simba's Pride and The Lion Guard). Andreas Deja, one of the most prominent gay men in the animation industry and the supervising animator for Scar and Jafar, even said Scar and many of his mannerisms were based on his straight voice actor Jeremy Irons rather than himself or any gay men he knew, and he said he based Jafar was on Vincent Price, Conrad Veidt and Boris Karloff, actors known for their villainous roles (especially in the horror genre).

I know some people argue that characters possessing heterosexual desires doesn't counteract "queer-coding"; however, I disagree. Firstly, that seems like moving the goalposts to me and secondly, even if it's not, doesn't it kind of decouple those traits from "queerness" anyway by presenting them as possessed by a heterosexual character? Won't the children/people just think PEOPLE who do this stuff are bad, not LGBT+ People are bad? The only people who would think of these as gay stereotypes would be teens and adults who know about LGBT stereotypes in the first place, not the target audience of children. Take this concept to it's logical conclusion, and you could argue Humbert Humbert, the pedophilic villain protagonist of the novel Lolita, is also queer-coded as he is attracted to a child and pedophilia was a negative stereotype of gay men for many years. Sure, he is attracted to a girl, but pedophilia is a gay stereotype so the character is still queer-coded.

Bob Chipman Example 1
Bob Chipman Example 2
Rowan Ellis Example 1
Rowan Ellis Example 2
Lindsay Ellis Example 1
Lindsay Ellis Example 2
Lindsay Amer's video about LGBT Representation in Media (including discussion of Queer-baiting and Queer-coding)
Tailed Features's response to Lindsay Amer's video
Anita Sarkeesian briefly discusses the topic in her Ms Male Character Video
Brent Cherry's response to the Ms Male Character Video
TV tropes points out Anita made a mistake in describing Heike Kagero as a homophobic/transphobic stereotype of effeminate males (Heike Kagero's appearance is based on oyama, male Kabuki actors who take on female roles, a traditional part of Japanese theater; a la dames in British Pantomimes or female characters in Shakespeare's plays)
Syfy's article on Queer-Coding
Fanlore's explanation of Queerbaiting
Fanlore's explanation of Queercoding

Please do not harass or flame any of the people mentioned. This is simply meant to question whether considering such characters representative of "Queerness" is encouraging the perpetuation of Homophobic stereotypes, rather than preventing them, and by blurring the line between standard bad guy stuff and queer-coding, are we restricting the creativity of artists? And if you are LGBTQ+ and you like these characters or view them as some sort of mascots for your community, that's fine, more power to you. Just understand their association with queerness may be unintentional.

[The Gold sovereign]

who cares

[Stanmenistan]

who cares

Well I do, and so do lots of LGBTQ+ or Cis/Straight Ally film reviewers and analysts.

With a character like Xerxes in 300 or Raoul Silva in Skyfall, I get it. I understand why people call them Queer-coded. They have flirtatious and/or homoerotic lines with the male protagonists (although they also have female sexual interests, with the women in Xerxes' tent in 300 and Severine in Skyfall, which makes them seem more likely to be bisexual (or even Pansexual) than strictly speaking "Gay"). But those characters are in action movies aimed at adults.

However, I also understand why people might think of Ursula in The Little Mermaid or Ziro the Hutt in Star Wars The Clone Wars are Queer-Coded (Ursula's design was based on Drag Queen Divine and Ziro's voice was based on Truman Capote (a Famous Gay Actor)). Both of these are bad guys in kids animated movies. Both do have opposite gender romantic interests though, which kind of dilutes, if not decouples, the queerness from them, as Ursula seduces Eric (Although Divine was a drag queen, the persona of a Gay man, named Harris Glenn Milstead in his regular life; however, remember that Ursula is a female mermaid who resembles a drag queen, not an actual drag queen) and Ziro had a romantic relationship with Sy Snootles (the alien lady singer from ROTJ who was a puppet originally before they made her CGI in the special edition; as well as the fact that (in the old EU/Old Canon) Hutts are biologically hermaphroditic)

But Scar from the Lion King? He's just a snobbish British accented Lion who happens to be Single. Simba is also skinny when he fights him (eating nothing but bugs for several years will do that) and to be honest, I always felt a lot of Scar's (allegedly queer-coded) poses and expressions weren't dissimilar to young Simba's (Scar expression versus Simba expression, Scar Pose versus Simba Pose, Scar Pose versus Simba Pose). He always came across as representing the darker path Simba could have taken to me. Jafar? Inspired by horror movie actors Conrad Veidt, Boris Karloff and (most notably) Vincent Price (I know there are/were rumours that Price was bisexual and his daughter claimed he was but AFAIK that was long after Aladdin was made). By associating villains and villainous behaviour like this with "queerness", are people actually perpetuating and spreading stereotypes about LGBT+ people? Are they becoming the thing they claim to be against? Is Disney subconsciously supporting homophobia, or are we simply projecting our own subconscious homophobia and knowledge of LGBT+ stereotypes on to perfectly normal cartoon baddies?

The line between Queer-Coded villainy and standard bad guy stuff (especially Rich or upper-class bad guy stuff) has never really been established, but it probably should be. Otherwise, we are restricting the freedom of artists. And besides, there's more than one type of gay person in the world, and there's more than one kind of gay stereotype in the world. Muscular/hyper-masculine gay men are another common stereotype (e.g. Gym Bunnies, Bears etc.) so if Scar and/or Jafar were super-muscular and super tough, and relied on physical force and brute strength instead of cunning and guile (with a little magic in Jafar's case), you'd still have people saying the same thing.

[Jacksonee]

However, some (not necessarily all) traditional examples I would question as simply being standard villain stuff. The baddies in The Hunger Games are meant to be coded as rich, upper-class elitists (cf. Metrosexuals, Dandies or Macaronis), Scar was meant to be coded as an ambitious British Dandy and Jafar was based on famous actors from classic horror movies.

Imo the upper classes were the only ones that could get away with showing "homosexual traits" until recently, so queer-coding is often just aristocrat-coding. Flamboyance is privilege. Being out of the closet is still very difficult in a lot of places.

[Saint Nicholas and the Hussars]

Why is it always you?

[Nationstatorship]

Why is it always you?

Because people who are pro-LGBT+, even if not LGBT+ themselves tend to talk more about LGBT-related content?

[Saint Nicholas and the Hussars]

Why is it always you?

Because people who are pro-LGBT+, even if not LGBT+ themselves tend to talk more about LGBT-related content?

It was mildly rhetorical

[Stanmenistan]

However, some (not necessarily all) traditional examples I would question as simply being standard villain stuff. The baddies in The Hunger Games are meant to be coded as rich, upper-class elitists (cf. Metrosexuals, Dandies or Macaronis), Scar was meant to be coded as an ambitious British Dandy and Jafar was based on famous actors from classic horror movies.

IMO the upper classes were the only ones that could get away with showing "homosexual traits" until recently, so queer-coding is often just aristocrat-coding. Flamboyance is privilege. Being out of the closet is still very difficult in a lot of places.

You make a good point there, as I feel aristocrat-coding is what a lot of these alleged examples are going for.

Let's not kid ourselves, in the late 20th and 21st Century, I am sure that most people know the majority of LGBTQ+ people are working or middle class rather than upper-class. Of course, the popularity of LGBTQ+ celebrities can make it difficult for people to decouple Queerness from their association of riches and ambition (no offense to any LGBTQ+ celebrities or their fans (LGBTQ+ or Straight/Cis), just that the fact that they are the most recognizable LGBTQ+ people in the world makes it hard to ignore the fact that they are Rich, Famous/Ambitious (the latter leads to the former) and LGBTQ+ can make it hard to separate the two when we see those traits in fiction). But we need to remind ourselves that straight people can be rich, ambitious and/or flamboyant (these people do remember Metrosexuals are a thing, right?) and a villain or any other fictional character having these traits doesn't actually make them LGBTQ+ or even necessarily reflections of LGBTQ+ stereotypes.

Besides a lot of it seems paradoxical the more you think about it. People think Gaston from Beauty and The Beast is queer-coded because he's muscular, popular, egotistical and vain and uses brute force to boss people around (see videos on the topic here and here;even though his lust for Belle drives the plot of the goddamn movie) but they also say Scar is queer-coded because he's slender, a pariah, self-deprecating and uses cunning and manipulation (see videos on the topic here, here, here and here; even though in the musical adaptation and in a deleted scene he has the hots for Nala, and his Widow Zira was the big bad of the sequel)? WTH? All of those traits are complete opposites. Are we going to say the Horned King is queer-coded because he has no penis (playing into Eunuch stereotypes)? No! It's because he's a skeleton he has no penis (not that we ever see what's down there TBH).

Could we at least stick to one LGBTQ+ stereotype at a time, please?

And like I said, straight/cis people come in just as many varieties as LGBTQ+ people and can have just as many different interests, traits, idiosyncrasies, behaviours, occupations, ideologies and beliefs. Effeminacy in male characters could simply imply they are metrosexuals, masculine traits in female characters could simply imply they are a tomboy. Consider the possible alternatives before jumping to conclusions.

But you know what? These people caught me in a good mood, I'll humour them. I'm going to play devil's advocate and see how you could interpret Arukenimon from Digimon Adventure 02 (AKA Digimon: Digital Monsters season 2) as being coded as a butch lesbian (IDK what Lesbian stereotypes are like in Japan though; I thought LGB+ relationships were usually associated with young adults or teens in Japan).

Her design is much more monstrous, frightening and less conventionally attractive in appearance than other female-coded digimon (e.g. Angewomon, SAKUYAMON, Kazemon, Lilymon, Lotosmon, Lilamon, Rosemon, Bastemon; even villainous ones such as LadyDevimon, Laylamon, Crusadermon (who was female in the English dub but male in the Japanese version) or Ranamon/Calamarimon look far prettier or at least more conventionally feminine), her dominant colour is a masculine dark red, she has grayish skin, her long hair is wild and untamed instead of groomed and feminine and is an icy blue, she has a shrill and harsh voice (in Digimon form), she wears tough metal shoes instead of feminine shoes with heels, she has a more conventionally feminine appearance in her disguise (including a more feminine and seductive voice; she uses the disguise to move around the human (read: straight) world) and she constantly (and often violently) dismisses the affections of her close male friend Mummymon.

[Stanmenistan]

I watched this video by The Princess and the Scrivener. Sarah the Scrivener The woman in the video (sorry, I couldn't find her name)ridiculously tries to claim Frollo from THOND is "queer-coded" because he's flirtatious toward Esmerelda (a FEMALE character; a male character flirting with a female one is a sign of heterosexual (or at least hetero-romantic) behaviour; it's not even a case where you could interpret it as simply wanting more Power like Jafar or Ursula, as Frollo clearly has deeper desires for Esmeralda: see below for more details) and he wears fancy long flowing robes (or as she calls them "dresses"; that's because he's a high-ranking government official, a Judge, not because he's gay or queer-coded or whatever). You've gotta be freaking kidding me. That is literally the dumbest pair of reasons to call a character Queer-Coded I've ever heard.

In fact, out of all the Disney Villains to accuse of being Queer-Coded, she picked (one of) the worst. Frollo has a very masculine voice (provided by the late Tony Jay), he doesn't have any of the campy/effeminate scenes or expressions that other allegedly Queer coded villains have, his facial design is similar to Rourke from Atlantis (another film by the same director as THOND and a non-Queer Coded villain according to the video), his villain song is explicitly about his lust for a female character, said lust is a major motivation for why he carries out his evil deeds and (most importantly) he's an extremist Fundamentalist Christian, a group well known for being very anti-LGBTQ+ (yes, I know about the whole Latent homosexuality thing (that very homophobic people may be in the closet themselves) but that has also been challenged; Frollo is bigoted against the Romani people so he probably hates the LGBTQs as well). She had to be fucking kidding me.

[Crockerland]

And besides, there's more than one type of gay person in the world, and there's more than one kind of gay stereotype in the world. Muscular/hyper-masculine gay men are another common stereotype (e.g. Gym Bunnies, Bears etc.) so if Scar and/or Jafar were super-muscular and super tough, and relied on physical force and brute strength instead of cunning and guile (with a little magic in Jafar's case), you'd still have people saying the same thing.

"Masculine, big, strong and mean villains? Clearly a reference to the "Black Brute" trope. Scar and Jafar would obviously be racist caricatures of black people, just like Gaston is!"


They are just coming up with an excuse to be offended over something.


The only villain I can think of who is actually "queer-coded" is maybe Griffith from Berserk.

[Stanmenistan]

And besides, there's more than one type of gay person in the world, and there's more than one kind of gay stereotype in the world. Muscular/hyper-masculine gay men are another common stereotype (e.g. Gym Bunnies, Bears etc.) so if Scar and/or Jafar were super-muscular and super tough, and relied on physical force and brute strength instead of cunning and guile (with a little magic in Jafar's case), you'd still have people saying the same thing.

"Masculine, big, strong and mean villains? Clearly a reference to the "Black Brute" trope. Scar and Jafar would obviously be racist caricatures of black people, just like Gaston is!"

One of the reporters The Washington Post felt that "Scar clearly is meant to represent an evil African American because 'while Simba's mane is gloriously red, Scar's is, of course, black.

Never mind that black hair can be found in white people (in fact, black hair appears to be a panracial trait AFAIK; almost all ethnicities (black, white, south asian, east asian, Amerindian, aboriginal Australian etc.) have members with black hair), and in rare cases red hair can be found in black people, and the black-maned Scar was voiced by a white man (Jeremy Irons) while the red-maned Mufasa was voiced by a black man (James Earl Jones), Scar must be a black guy! This claim is ridiculous.

Some people also complained about Shenzi being a racist caricature of a black woman, because she was voiced by a black woman (Whoopi Goldberg) using her "Ebonics" accent, and they based a few elements of her design on Whoopi herself (lack of eyebrows, longer hair and many of the facial expressions), which I find a silly accusation. Sure, she may be based on a black woman but that doesn't (necessarily) make here a racist stereotype. For examples of people stating "Shenzi is a racist caricature", see here, here, here, here and here.

I mean, it's common for characters in animation who are voiced by celebrities to resemble the celebrity VA in question. If it's okay for Princess Fiona to resemble Cameron Diaz, Gazelle to resemble Shakira, Frozone to resemble Samuel L Jackson, Po Ping to resemble Jack Black, Scrooge to resemble Jim Carrey, Yzma to be inspired by Eartha Kitt, Cobra Bubbles to resemble Ving Rhames or Oscar (from Shark Tale) to resemble Will Smith, why is it wrong for Shenzi to resemble her VA? Do you really think Whoopi Goldberg (or any of the other Black actors on TLK) would work on a movie that was racist?

A few minor complaints about her androgynous appearance and never being referred to as She or Her in the dialogue of the movie as being a demonisation of masculine women (tomboys, butch lesbians or butch bisexual women etc.) or non-binary/androgynous people, even though Hyenas in real life lack a lot of sexual dimorphism. See dreams of paprika here and Feminist Disney on Bitch Flicks here. I know TLK takes a lot of artistic license in its depictions of animal appearance and behaviour, but getting annoyed when they get something right is surely going too far.

They are just coming up with an excuse to be offended over something.

Yes, that's what I think (in a lot of cases but by no means all). In more adult-skewing fare like PG-13 or R-rated action movies, thrillers, horrors or dramas, it's usually easier to understand where people are coming from and their arguments usually hold more water (with the exception of the Hunger Games; see above). But kids movie villains? Especially in animated Disney Films? You have to really look hard to do that, and you will probably read into things the creator didn't intend or aren't really there. Yeah, yeah, death of the author etc. but a creator's viewpoint and interpretation, whilst it may not be any more valid or important than other interpretations, it probably shouldn't be dismissed out of hand either. They are the ones actually writing, drawing and otherwise creating these characters and stories and getting them to the public after all.

Many think Andreas Deja, an openly Gay animator who animated Jafar and Scar, based them on himself but he himself denied these claims. And yet, QC accusers insists that their delusions are more important than the actual thoughts from a gay man who worked on the film (see Feminist Disney example 1 and example 2). That is just plain rude, and a real case of "white knighting". A gay man who actually worked on the goddamn movie you're critiquing in the first place tells you This Ain't It, Chief and you ignore him because it doesn't suit your argument? That is a deception, a disgrace, an outrage.

I always felt the idea that Timon and Pumbaa were a gay couple was a thousand times more plausible than Scar being Gay. Timon and Pumbaa are almost always seen together, they travel together and they live together. Timon's VA (Nathan Lane) came out a few years after the movie was released and expressed support for the Timon and Pumbaa 'ship' as it were. A deleted scene had them nestle next to each other. Also important, in earlier drafts Timon was going to raise Simba with his family (including his wife) but they replaced the family with a single new male character Pumbaa the Warthog. Timon even dresses in drag in one of the most surreal, funny and amazing scenes in the film. And again, QC accusers insists that their delusions are more important than the actual thoughts from a gay man who worked on the film (see Feminist Disney example 1 and example 2).

Do you really think Nathan and Andreas would have worked on the Lion King film if they thought there were any secret anti-gay messages? Or Elton John, one of the most famous Gay musicians of all time and a major activist for LGBTQ+ rights, for that matter? I don't think so.

The only villain I can think of who is actually "queer-coded" is maybe Griffith from Berserk.

With Anime villains, it's kind of tricky for westerners to judge, as they are the product of Japanese (pop) culture rather than western/American (pop) culture.

Japan has its own gay stereotypes that (may) vary from the stereotypes found in English Speaking nations (e.g.Class S Relationships (Lesbian relationships being seen as the domain of teen girls who will one day have straight relationships (of course, some of these girls may actually be Bi)), Muscular, tough guys being the default appearance of Gay men (as opposed to beginning as a counter stereotype to the effeminate, physically weak stereotype of Gay men as it did in the West AFAIK) which is best expressed in the Bara Genre, the stereotypes and cliches of the Yaoi (gay male romance) and Yuri (lesbian romance) Anime/Manga genres), although some western influence (due to globalisation and the popularity of Western pop culture worldwide) may also play a role in character design and characterisation.

---

People do remember metrosexuals are a thing, right? I know sometimes metrosexual is used to describe gay or bisexual men who act in an effeminate manner, but usually it refers to a heterosexual man who acts in an effeminate manner. All these examples could be argued to be metrosexual-coding instead of queer-coding, and it'd be just as plausible. In fact, it would be more plausible as heterosexual desires expressed by these "coded" characters could be seen as part of metrosexual-coding, not in spite of it/something that needs to be ignored in order to make the theory seem more plausible.

[Stanmenistan]

And besides, there's more than one type of gay person in the world, and there's more than one kind of gay stereotype in the world. Muscular/hyper-masculine gay men are another common stereotype (e.g. Gym Bunnies, Bears etc.) so if Scar and/or Jafar were super-muscular and super tough, and relied on physical force and brute strength instead of cunning and guile (with a little magic in Jafar's case), you'd still have people saying the same thing.

"Masculine, big, strong and mean villains? Clearly a reference to the "Black Brute" trope. Scar and Jafar would obviously be racist caricatures of black people, just like Gaston is!"

The only black-coded Disney villain I can think of is Captain Gantu from L&S. He is large, intimidating, has dark skin, voiced by a black man (Kevin Michael Richardson) and claims to be Samoan in the TV show (I know Samoans are actually polynesian, but many people have a mix of Samoan and Black ancestry, like Dwayne Johnson; as he is the most famous man of Samoan). In the first film, he works as a galactic police officer, a job stereotypically associated with blacks, at least in cartoons (E.G. Jake Justice from Rescue Heroes, Jefferson Morales (Miles Morales' dad), Lou on The Simpsons, Ethan Bennett in The Batman, Bishop in X-Men:TAS (he was an enforcer for the Sentinel regime originally), Sheriff Blubs (another KMR character); URL is a robot police officer in Futurama and is coded black (heh heh, I said a robot was Coded); for some live action examples, see Moses Hightower in Police Academy, Det. Lt. William Somerset in Se7en, Roger Murtaugh in the Lethal Weapon series, Peter Washington in Dawn of the Dead, Kenneth Hall in the Dawn of the Dead remake).

[Purpelia]

You need to lay off the coffee, lay off the analysis and learn to enjoy modern media for what it is. Commercial entertainment whose only deep rooted message is "give us money". Or potentially "but our toys" but that's only if it's from the 80's and 90's.

[Stanmenistan]

You need to lay off the coffee, lay off the analysis and learn to enjoy modern media for what it is. Commercial entertainment whose only deep rooted message is "give us money". Or potentially "but our toys" but that's only if it's from the 80's and 90's.

Don't tell that to me. Tell that to Georgia Vraketta, Mark Edmundson, Lindsay Ellis, Bob Chipman, Rowan Ellis, Lindsay Amer, Feminist Disney, The Talko,
TheThings, TheRichest, Emily Carson and Sapphire Sandalo, Susan Mackey-Kallis and with their queer-coding delusions and psychological projection of subconscious homophobia. When you start claiming obviously heterosexual characters like Frollo (a Christian Fundamentalist and bigot motivated by Lust for a female character), Prince Eric (1. a male character being shy and nervous around Pretty Women is as much of a sign of heterosexuality as homosexuality, if not more so 2. He clearly is very interested in Ariel 3. They are encouraging him to get married as he's a prince and needs a princess to continue the royal bloodline 4. he wears fancy clothes as he's a prince, and it's a V-neck shirt as Disney's movie takes place in the tropics so too much heavy clothing is impractical), Gaston (a Muscular manly man who lusts after Belle; that's why he ignores the other women in town, as he just wants Belle; it's more Gatsby coding than Gay coding-Heck, may be the only reason he's so attracted to Belle is he actually has to work to get her to like him) Ken from Toy Story 3 (Who was clearly in love with Barbie and was meant to be a straight metrosexual, dammit), I think you're seeing stuff that isn't really there (i.e. you're projecting), which also makes the other examples much more questionable as a result.

Scar is just Jeremy Irons as a lion, Hades is just James Woods as a god of the undead, Dr Facilier is just a voodoo bokor who resembles Baron Samedi, Ratcliffe is just a greedy British Colonist, Jafar is just Vincent Price as an Arabian sorcerer, Professor Ratigan LITERALLY is just Vincent Price as a rat, King John is just a childish adult, Judge Frollo is a Medieval French government official (that's why he wears long-flowing robes (not a dress, no matter how much you say so)), Tamatoa is just a bioluminescent giant version of Mr Krabs from Spongebob, Maleficent is just an Unseelie to contrast with the Seelie (Good Fairies), Captain Hook is just a long haired pirate captain like Blackbeard (Oh, and BTW, in England, the part of Peter Pan is traditionally played by a woman in pantomimes), Foxy Loxy is just a tomboyish bully, Gaston is a manly hunter who is Bellesexual. Hell, even Ursula is a cisgender (and probably straight, given how seductive she is toward Eric) woman who simply resembles a drag queen.

When I put Gantu down as Black-Coded I was half-joking. Even if he is, that's to contrast with the more heroic Cobra Bubbles, a legitimately black male character. While he still occupies an antagonistic (=/=Villainous) role, he ultimately only wants what is best for Lilo and becomes a friend of the family.

---

I wonder if Disney and Pixar's current fixation on Twist Villains is due to Intersectional Feminist liberals (or so-called SJWs) like this arguing classic Disney villains are queer coded. And then they complain modern Disney villains aren't as good as they used to be. Sorry, the YouTuber Formerly Known As The Nostalgia Chick, you have no-one to blame but yourself and others like you.

On the other hand, I've noted that Hans, the "Twist Villain" of Frozen, actually has a lot in common with Scar and Jafar. As the YouTuber Formerly Known As The Nostalgia Chick once said, you can Queer anything if you try hard enough. Hans is looked down upon by his own family and wants to become king because he is so late in the line of succession, much like Scar. He wears fancy and colorful clothes compared to the humble Kristoff, including heeled shoes, golden jewelry, pinkish scarf, and white gloves. Similarly, Jafar wears the fancy and effeminate clothes of an Arabian courtier compared to the humble rags of Aladdin. Also like Jafar, he only tries to marry the Princess for power, and decides to kill Elsa instead of marrying her so they could rule both lands together like a hetero-coded villain would. He has a fancy haircut and a rounded feminine face, compared to the manly square jawed Kristoff. Thought Frozen was a big positive Queer-Coded film with two good(ish) queer-coded characters, Elsa and not-Morshu (IMO, I thought the shopkeeper was just waving to a family of customers, but to each their own)? Think Again, Gays! (And straight allies)! If all that sound ridiculous, that's what every TLK and Aladdin Fan has had to put up with for 3 freaking decades because of these clods. Not so nice when the shoe is on the other foot, now, is it?

If you can Queer anything as the Ex-Nostalgia Chick said, then every single fictional character who ever existed or will exist is queer-coded in someway as they reflect characteristics of LGBTQ+ stereotypes. And really, no-one believes that (Cis, Straight, Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Non-Binary or anything else). Not all fictional characters are queer or even queer coded.

[Stanmenistan]

In this post, Feminist Disney argues Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer isn't queer-coded because (among many other reasons) "HE WUVED BUFFY, YO"

But in many of her other posts, she argues Queer coding ≠ to saying a character “is” gay. To give another example, Queer coding doesn’t mean a character necessarily is gay- or that their evilness is based in being queer- it means that the character is evil and queer because society associates queer with bad

What a Hypocrite.

[Vassenor]

So basically these threads aren't about serious literary analysis, they're about dunking on critics you dislike.

[Stanmenistan]

So basically these threads aren't about serious literary analysis, they're about dunking on critics you dislike.

No, they are about debunking (or at least challenging) the concept of Queer-Coding as serious literary analysis, at least when it comes Disney films.

[Vassenor]

So basically these threads aren't about serious literary analysis, they're about dunking on critics you dislike.

No, they are about debunking (or at least challenging) the concept of Queer-Coding as serious literary analysis, at least when it comes Disney films.

By screaming about hypocrisy and feminist SJWs.

[IROLB]

About saying that Scar is supposed to be a black person: No, he's not, and no, his characterization isn't racist. His mane is black because black is an evil color, primarily associated with villainy. Simba's mane is red to emulate Mufasa. It's 5th grade.

[Stanmenistan]

No, they are about debunking (or at least challenging) the concept of Queer-Coding as serious literary analysis, at least when it comes Disney films.

By screaming about hypocrisy and feminist SJWs.

Well it seems pretty Hypocritical of Feminist Disney to claim a character in a franchise she likes isn't Queer Coded (despite being canonically Bisexual or at least Heteroflexible) because he had a female love interest, but Scar is because he reflects negative gay stereotypes like being thin and nonmuscular (Simba is as well TBH; a diet of exclusively insects will do that to a lion), having a British Accent (Even though Zazu also has a British accent and is a good guy; Spike from BTVS also has a British accent), and making expressions and poses similar to Young Simba's (which is to emphasise how he shows a darker path Simba could have gone down) (despite being portrayed as heterosexual in all other forms of Lion King Media and he was going to have a song about how he has the hots for Nala in a deleted scene (fan made version here)). IDGAF if less people watch them, if you were a serious media analyst you would treat the sequels and spinoffs on an equal footing with the original films. You don't have to include them in your reviews of the original films, but please review them and ask yourself how well they fare on the intersectional feminist/representation front anyway.

She says There is a plethora of evidence for this and numerous citations which tends to negate the “let me tell you, Feminist Disney, you’re just being a picky ol’ feminist who has nothing better to say” or at least serve to show that this isn’t an “I” so much as a “multitude, we". I agree that it's not just you, but I still think you and all your kind are picky ol’ feminists who have nothing better to say.

She also says But anyhow, queer coding, it exists. (It really doesn't in Disney films TBH, at least IMHO). If you want to keep thinking I’m oversensitive or intentionally “wanting” to find negative things to say, go ahead, it’s a free internet and you wouldn’t be the first or last person to think that. You keep deluding yourself into thinking Disney villains are homophobic for having their villainous actually have personalities that may overlap with LGBTQ+ stereotypes at times (which is more an issue with society at large, not the fault of the House of Mouse), and I'll keep thinking you’re oversensitive or intentionally “wanting” to find negative things to say. I'd hope you'd come to realise you are psychologically projecting your own homophobia, but oh well, your psychologist can tell you that.

May be it's just because I am English (and Cis/Straight), and I think Scar should be the Disney Star to represent my people, but we all have our own biases and opinions.

TBH, I always thought having a character having stereotypically queer traits and pairing them with heterosexual desire was more a way to challenge homophobic stereotypes, not perpetuate them. IDK, doesn't it seem more likely that a child/person who stereotypically believes "All Gay people do X or have Y trait" and then sees a character who does X or have Y trait but is heterosexual would be more likely to challenge a person's beliefs about LGBTQ+ people and Queerness, not encourage Homophobia? I'm just a media studies/film studies student (we covered representation of Gender (in a strictly binary male-female sense), Ethnicity, national and regional identity, and age (partially because LGBTQ+ representation in Media is a pretty new thing in the grand scheme of things, and partially due to the aftermath of Section 28)), and I'm not LGBTQ+ myself, so may be I'm not the best judge, but still. Question this creed first before perpetuating it.

According to David Parkinson, author of The Rough Guide to Film Musicals, the general public appears to have remained largely oblivious to such concerns about Scar's alleged Queerness. And these are the same general public that gave LGBTQ+ people many of the rights they have today. Can so many be wrong? What's the right opinion? Can one opinion be truly more valid than another?. If only a minority of people have the opinion that Scar from the Lion King is queer-coded (or gay), and a majority don't, surely the majority is more correct?

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Further evidence she's a hypocrite certain ethnic/cultural/nationility groups like the portrayal Haitian vodou in PATF. Disney's Princess and The Frog is set in New Orleans; Mama Odie and Dr Facilier practice New Orleans Voodoo, a totally different cultural tradition to Haitian Vodou (albeit one that derives from similar sources).

When you claim to be against racial stereotyping, please don't make mistakes like this.

[Stanmenistan]

About saying that Scar is supposed to be a black person: No, he's not, and no, his characterization isn't racist. His mane is black because black is an evil color, primarily associated with villainy. Simba's mane is red to emulate Mufasa. It's 5th grade.

Yep, I agree. That's Right, and Slant Magazine would agree with you

At the time of The Lion King’s release, some were quick to point out its racist overtones, namely that the evil hyena triumvirate is voiced by Hispanic and Black actors. But that’s a miscalculation of sorts, especially when you consider that minority voices are also responsible for some of the film’s kinder characters. In the end, the film’s racism is mostly subconscious and stems from the animators’ elementary attempts to color-code evil for the film’s target audience (what other explanation is there for Scar’s black mane?)

[Atheris]

Scar is because he reflects negative gay stereotypes like being thin and nonmuscular (Simba is as well TBH; a diet of exclusively insects will do that to a lion), having a British Accent (Even though Zazu also has a British accent and is a good guy; Spike from BTVS also has a British accent)

Scar isn't reflecting gay stereotypes. He's thin and muscular to physically show him being weaker than Simba and Mufasa (and also because he's old), and he has a British accent because that's one of the three evil accents.

[Purpelia]

Don't tell that to me. Tell that to Georgia Vraketta, Mark Edmundson, Lindsay Ellis, Bob Chipman, Rowan Ellis, Lindsay Amer, Feminist Disney, The Talko, ...
... snip

What's that supposed to prove? That you aren't the only one in the world with too much time on your hands and a penchant for overanalyzing entertainment?
I am sure that if you look hard enough you'll find thousands of people discussing the merits or demerits of hamburgers and KFC too. Like entire culinary blogs even. Don't mean it isn't a waste of time.


Bottom line is you are making one very wrong assumption. And that is to think just because people are doing something it must be worth doing. And that's just plain wrong.

[Stanmenistan]

Scar is because he reflects negative gay stereotypes like being thin and nonmuscular (Simba is as well TBH; a diet of exclusively insects will do that to a lion), having a British Accent (Even though Zazu also has a British accent and is a good guy; Spike from BTVS also has a British accent)

Scar isn't reflecting gay stereotypes. He's thin and muscular to physically show him being weaker than Simba and Mufasa (and also because he's old), and he has a British accent because that's one of the three evil accents.

You meant Nonmuscular, right? Besides, he's younger than Mufasa, so he can't be that old. Anyway, I'd argue he and Simba. Scar looking thinner than Mufasa actually helps him look younger (IMO), more than being an example of Queerness (these people have probably never met a Bear or a Gym Bunny, or listened to the Village People's Macho Man). It's really based more on Scar's self-deprecating line "Well, as far as brains go, I got the lion's share. But, when it comes to brute strength...I'm afraid I'm at the shallow end of the gene pool", rather than his actual character design as far as I can see.

I agree on the accent thing, though. He's just an example of the long-running American Film Tradition of the Evil Brit/Evil Englishman. Yet, when people bring this up to the Queer-Coding accusers (the thing is that those aspects of Ratcliffe and Wiggins point towards a racist depiction of the British and their assumed lifestyle, rather than a queer coded depiction. This is present in another one of those villains you mentioned (Scar), by them choosing someone with a pronounced English accent to voice him. I just don't see the queer codes-Average Twink), instead of accepting their mistake they deny it and insist the character is queer-coded anyway.

And I definitely agree that Scar isn't reflecting gay stereotypes. TV Tropes claims the Lion Guard completely removed Scar's slight fancy (or allegedly effeminate) traits, which is what the Queer Coding accusers base their arguments on. That may be so, but in the Lion Guard, Scar is now made out of fire. (Joking Mode on) A Clear pun on the term Flaming Homosexual! (Joking Mode off). But seriously, people have argued Hades' head being on fire is indicative of queer-coding (instead of suggesting devilish hellfire which would be what 99% of people, including most LGBTQ+ people, would interpret the fire on his head as).

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Don't tell that to me. Tell that to Georgia Vraketta, Mark Edmundson, Lindsay Ellis, Bob Chipman, Rowan Ellis, Lindsay Amer, Feminist Disney, The Talko, ...
... snip

What's that supposed to prove? That you aren't the only one in the world with too much time on your hands and a penchant for overanalyzing entertainment?
I am sure that if you look hard enough you'll find thousands of people discussing the merits or demerits of hamburgers and KFC too. Like entire culinary blogs even. Don't mean it isn't a waste of time.

Bottom line is you are making one very wrong assumption. And that is to think just because people are doing something it must be worth doing. And that's just plain wrong.

With the pandemic preventing me from going to work or anywhere other than my house, I have nothing but time on my hands. I'm also took media studies in High school and college, plus film studies in college, where (over)analyzing entertainment was basically the whole point.

What I'm trying to do is challenge the conventional wisdom of these other entertainment critics, to question whether Queer-coding is really a real thing (at least in Disney Animated Canon movies and other Children's movies) or whether it is simply the psychological projection of adults who are more aware of LGBTQ+ stereotypes on to characters who were never intended as such. I feel it is the latter.

[Auristania]

So, if the Villain is Classic weak-wristed and Effeminate,, that is a gay stereotype. If the Villain is hyper-masculine, that is also a gay stereotype. Stamets in Star Trek Discovery, Adam in the Archers, my own best friend Alan, sure they fuck men, so they are kinda sorta gay, but they are ordinary. If the Villain is ordinary, that is a gay stereotype.

If the Villain is a feminine woman, that is the Lesbian femme sterotype. If the Villain is a tomboy, that is the Lesbian butch stereotype. And if the Villain is in the middle, then it is transphobic.

If the Villain is an insect who eats bananas, then Black stereotype. If the Villain is an insect who eats blood, then Romanian stereotype. If the Villain is an Ork, then Turkish stereotype.