by Australian rePublic » Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:00 am
by Lamenia » Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:09 am
by Australian rePublic » Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:45 am
Lamenia wrote:Yeah, I also never understood how society was completely brainwashed in just 40 years or less. If a desire for liberty wouldn't motivate the supposedly stupid proles, living conditions would. I don't care if they aren't that smart, they would understand that Overthrow=More food, more money, more sexual freedom, and less risk of getting sent off to war. No one would go along with this. It's a good read, but it's sorta BS.
by Imperial Joseon » Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:53 am
by The New California Republic » Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:30 pm
Australian rePublic wrote:they make no effort to brainwash the proles. That's the part that I don't get
by Australian rePublic » Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:31 pm
The New California Republic wrote:Australian rePublic wrote:they make no effort to brainwash the proles. That's the part that I don't get
All capacity for truly independent thought in the proles has vanished due to conditioning. They are kept docile by base pleasures and meaningless entertainment created by the Party. On the very rare occasion that any prole does show signs of independent thought then they are simply killed. Only Party members are subject to being brought to the Ministry of Love for Thoughtcrime, as using those techniques against proles would be pointless, as they don't have the capacity for the re-establishing of doublethink to resolve the contradictions they perceive.
An excellent historical example is East Germany. The members of the Sozialistische Einheitspartei Deutschlands, or SED, were arguably under far greater scrutiny by the Stasi than the rest of society (proles). The smallest unit of organisation in the SED, the party group, usually about a dozen or so members, had one designated person who would submit regular reports to the Stasi on the activities of the group as a whole, as well as the individual members. Party members also had to attend regular ideology sessions. During the mass demonstrations in 1989, the regional Party members (which you could call the "Outer Party") started countermanding the orders of the Central Committee (the "Inner Party"). Once that happened, the SED was finished. That's why the Party in 1984 goes to such extreme lengths to control the Outer Party; as they realise, just as actually happened in East Germany after 1984 was published, that the greatest threat to Party power is the Outer Party rebelling against the Inner Party.
To keep the comparison going, the head of the Stasi, Erich Mielke, renumbered the rooms in the Stasi HQ so that his office would be room number 101. Mielke clearly read 1984 at some point...
by The New California Republic » Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:45 pm
Australian rePublic wrote:The New California Republic wrote:All capacity for truly independent thought in the proles has vanished due to conditioning. They are kept docile by base pleasures and meaningless entertainment created by the Party. On the very rare occasion that any prole does show signs of independent thought then they are simply killed. Only Party members are subject to being brought to the Ministry of Love for Thoughtcrime, as using those techniques against proles would be pointless, as they don't have the capacity for the re-establishing of doublethink to resolve the contradictions they perceive.
An excellent historical example is East Germany. The members of the Sozialistische Einheitspartei Deutschlands, or SED, were arguably under far greater scrutiny by the Stasi than the rest of society (proles). The smallest unit of organisation in the SED, the party group, usually about a dozen or so members, had one designated person who would submit regular reports to the Stasi on the activities of the group as a whole, as well as the individual members. Party members also had to attend regular ideology sessions. During the mass demonstrations in 1989, the regional Party members (which you could call the "Outer Party") started countermanding the orders of the Central Committee (the "Inner Party"). Once that happened, the SED was finished. That's why the Party in 1984 goes to such extreme lengths to control the Outer Party; as they realise, just as actually happened in East Germany after 1984 was published, that the greatest threat to Party power is the Outer Party rebelling against the Inner Party.
To keep the comparison going, the head of the Stasi, Erich Mielke, renumbered the rooms in the Stasi HQ so that his office would be room number 101. Mielke clearly read 1984 at some point...
Firstly, the Outter Party were imprisoned with the proles. Remember when Winston smith was imprisoned with that prole who thiugh she was his mother?
Australian rePublic wrote:Secondly, how does thinkpol keep tabs on proles, when they can't control?
by Heloin » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:32 pm
Imperial Joseon wrote:I think a totalitarian society like 1984 would never exist, sine this will lead to a massive uprising even the government or the bureaucracy won't contain.
by Minoa » Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:36 am
by Imperial Joseon » Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:39 am
by Earthbound Immortal Squad » Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:45 am
Australian rePublic wrote:Lamenia wrote:Yeah, I also never understood how society was completely brainwashed in just 40 years or less. If a desire for liberty wouldn't motivate the supposedly stupid proles, living conditions would. I don't care if they aren't that smart, they would understand that Overthrow=More food, more money, more sexual freedom, and less risk of getting sent off to war. No one would go along with this. It's a good read, but it's sorta BS.
You can brainwash people in 40 years. Just look at China and North Korea. I think the best way to do it would be seperating kids from their parents and start the indoctronation from birth whilst purging those who would resist. Alternately, you can create an artificial generation gap and seperate parents and brainwash their children. I reacon it could be done. And the novel, at least to me, suggested that this is what they did to Winston Smith when seperating him from his mother and sister, so taht he couldn't grow up with anyone who's ever known any better, but the thing is, they make no effort to brainwash the proles. That's the part that I don't get
by The New California Republic » Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:48 am
Earthbound Immortal Squad wrote:Why bother brainwashing the proles. The more people the inner party try to control the more likely a rebellion will happen. If you give people the illusion that they are "free" then they probably won't feel a need to rebel against the establishment.
by Imperial Joseon » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:41 am
by The New California Republic » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:43 am
by The Sapmi » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:52 am
Australian rePublic wrote:The New California Republic wrote:All capacity for truly independent thought in the proles has vanished due to conditioning. They are kept docile by base pleasures and meaningless entertainment created by the Party. On the very rare occasion that any prole does show signs of independent thought then they are simply killed. Only Party members are subject to being brought to the Ministry of Love for Thoughtcrime, as using those techniques against proles would be pointless, as they don't have the capacity for the re-establishing of doublethink to resolve the contradictions they perceive.
An excellent historical example is East Germany. The members of the Sozialistische Einheitspartei Deutschlands, or SED, were arguably under far greater scrutiny by the Stasi than the rest of society (proles). The smallest unit of organisation in the SED, the party group, usually about a dozen or so members, had one designated person who would submit regular reports to the Stasi on the activities of the group as a whole, as well as the individual members. Party members also had to attend regular ideology sessions. During the mass demonstrations in 1989, the regional Party members (which you could call the "Outer Party") started countermanding the orders of the Central Committee (the "Inner Party"). Once that happened, the SED was finished. That's why the Party in 1984 goes to such extreme lengths to control the Outer Party; as they realise, just as actually happened in East Germany after 1984 was published, that the greatest threat to Party power is the Outer Party rebelling against the Inner Party.
To keep the comparison going, the head of the Stasi, Erich Mielke, renumbered the rooms in the Stasi HQ so that his office would be room number 101. Mielke clearly read 1984 at some point...
Firstly, the Outter Party were imprisoned with the proles. Remember when Winston smith was imprisoned with that prole who thiugh she was his mother?
Secondly, how does thinkpol keep tabs on proles, when they can't control?
International News: Growth of world market slowest since 2074 | European Federation announces complete unification to occur within the century | Hispaniola wins the 2088 World Cup, the first Carribean Nation to do so
Local News: Terrorist attack in Finnmark leads 84 dead, week of mourning instituted | Call for vote of no-confidence held off as Bjorn Handal's approval rate surges to 51%
The Rundown: The Saami Commonwealth is a nation located in Northern Scandinavia that declared independence in 2052. Factbooks are factual, most NationStates statistics are not
by BBs Oceania » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:55 am
by Vivolkha » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:55 am
Imperial Joseon wrote:I think a totalitarian society like 1984 would never exist, sine this will lead to a massive uprising even the government or the bureaucracy won't contain.
by Lamenia » Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:17 pm
The New California Republic wrote:Australian rePublic wrote:they make no effort to brainwash the proles. That's the part that I don't get
All capacity for truly independent thought in the proles has vanished due to conditioning. They are kept docile by base pleasures and meaningless entertainment created by the Party. On the very rare occasion that any prole does show signs of independent thought then they are simply killed. Only Party members are subject to being brought to the Ministry of Love for Thoughtcrime, as using those techniques against proles would be pointless, as they don't have the capacity for the re-establishing of doublethink to resolve the contradictions they perceive.
An excellent historical example is East Germany. The members of the Sozialistische Einheitspartei Deutschlands, or SED, were arguably under far greater scrutiny by the Stasi than the rest of society (proles). The smallest unit of organisation in the SED, the party group, usually about a dozen or so members, had one designated person who would submit regular reports to the Stasi on the activities of the group as a whole, as well as the individual members. Party members also had to attend regular ideology sessions. During the mass demonstrations in 1989, the regional Party members (which you could call the "Outer Party") started countermanding the orders of the Central Committee (the "Inner Party"). Once that happened, the SED was finished. That's why the Party in 1984 goes to such extreme lengths to control the Outer Party; as they realise, just as actually happened in East Germany after 1984 was published, that the greatest threat to Party power is the Outer Party rebelling against the Inner Party.
To keep the comparison going, the head of the Stasi, Erich Mielke, renumbered the rooms in the Stasi HQ so that his office would be room number 101. Mielke clearly read 1984 at some point...
by Imperial Joseon » Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:23 am
by The Sapmi » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:08 am
Lamenia wrote:The New California Republic wrote:All capacity for truly independent thought in the proles has vanished due to conditioning. They are kept docile by base pleasures and meaningless entertainment created by the Party. On the very rare occasion that any prole does show signs of independent thought then they are simply killed. Only Party members are subject to being brought to the Ministry of Love for Thoughtcrime, as using those techniques against proles would be pointless, as they don't have the capacity for the re-establishing of doublethink to resolve the contradictions they perceive.
An excellent historical example is East Germany. The members of the Sozialistische Einheitspartei Deutschlands, or SED, were arguably under far greater scrutiny by the Stasi than the rest of society (proles). The smallest unit of organisation in the SED, the party group, usually about a dozen or so members, had one designated person who would submit regular reports to the Stasi on the activities of the group as a whole, as well as the individual members. Party members also had to attend regular ideology sessions. During the mass demonstrations in 1989, the regional Party members (which you could call the "Outer Party") started countermanding the orders of the Central Committee (the "Inner Party"). Once that happened, the SED was finished. That's why the Party in 1984 goes to such extreme lengths to control the Outer Party; as they realise, just as actually happened in East Germany after 1984 was published, that the greatest threat to Party power is the Outer Party rebelling against the Inner Party.
To keep the comparison going, the head of the Stasi, Erich Mielke, renumbered the rooms in the Stasi HQ so that his office would be room number 101. Mielke clearly read 1984 at some point...
But east Germany eventually fell, so... Also, I said that the proles would eventually realize that societal reorganization would benefit them, even if in a superficial way. They'd revolt eventually, and as my friend oversimplified puts it: "once that civil liberties train gets rolling, you best buckle up". Something like that.
International News: Growth of world market slowest since 2074 | European Federation announces complete unification to occur within the century | Hispaniola wins the 2088 World Cup, the first Carribean Nation to do so
Local News: Terrorist attack in Finnmark leads 84 dead, week of mourning instituted | Call for vote of no-confidence held off as Bjorn Handal's approval rate surges to 51%
The Rundown: The Saami Commonwealth is a nation located in Northern Scandinavia that declared independence in 2052. Factbooks are factual, most NationStates statistics are not
by The New California Republic » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:09 am
by Australian rePublic » Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:58 am
by Australian rePublic » Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:21 am
The Sapmi wrote:Lamenia wrote:But east Germany eventually fell, so... Also, I said that the proles would eventually realize that societal reorganization would benefit them, even if in a superficial way. They'd revolt eventually, and as my friend oversimplified puts it: "once that civil liberties train gets rolling, you best buckle up". Something like that.
The issue with this idea is that the proles in 1984 didn't know of a better life, whilst citizens in East Germany saw their western counterparts thrive. Even presuming the world situation of 1984 as said by Oceania is correct, the borders between Oceania, Eurasia and Eastasia are split off by border territories, and most of that is likely in pure ruins.
I'd say the more likely centre of revolt is in these disputed territories; many slave revolts have occurred, and would require a global effort to contain. Who knows, maybe this is why the allegiences switch so often.
by Imperial Joseon » Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:22 am
Australian rePublic wrote:Imperial Joseon wrote:
I thought it was a fake nation, but it really exists. By the way, I wasn't asking you, so if you can step aside, that'd be great.
Eritrea is the country that broke away from Ethiopia and took the costline with them. Ethiopia was thriving till that point, so it makes you wonder to what extent landlockedness has fucked them over...
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