The Warhammer 40.000/Fantasy Discussion Thread Mk.III

[The Huskar Social Union]

What they have done with Pius over the years is weird.


First it was him as a guardsman that died defending the emperor. Then it was a space marine. Then it was a custodes, then it was him again? Now he has been a perpetual who has known the emperor for thousands of years and ends up in the heresy after Calth gets fucked by the Word Bearers and is trying to make his way to Terra through the Warp or something.

Then apparently the whole thing is a myth and it comes from another Soldier with a very similar name, who dies defending a flag with the emperors depiction against Angron at the space port at the Palace, and was made into a myth of him dying to defend the emperor by his great great grandson, and Pius still exists as a perpetual who is... doing something???

I get that is all being told after like 10k years of history, and things can change but still its just weird lol

[Hurdergaryp]

What they have done with Pius over the years is weird.


First it was him as a guardsman that died defending the emperor. Then it was a space marine. Then it was a custodes, then it was him again? Now he has been a perpetual who has known the emperor for thousands of years and ends up in the heresy after Calth gets fucked by the Word Bearers and is trying to make his way to Terra through the Warp or something.

Then apparently the whole thing is a myth and it comes from another Soldier with a very similar name, who dies defending a flag with the emperors depiction against Angron at the space port at the Palace, and was made into a myth of him dying to defend the emperor by his great great grandson, and Pius still exists as a perpetual who is... doing something???

At least they've been consistently inconsistent with the character, which I can appreciate.

[Tethys 13]

What they have done with Pius over the years is weird.


First it was him as a guardsman that died defending the emperor. Then it was a space marine. Then it was a custodes, then it was him again? Now he has been a perpetual who has known the emperor for thousands of years and ends up in the heresy after Calth gets fucked by the Word Bearers and is trying to make his way to Terra through the Warp or something.

Then apparently the whole thing is a myth and it comes from another Soldier with a very similar name, who dies defending a flag with the emperors depiction against Angron at the space port at the Palace, and was made into a myth of him dying to defend the emperor by his great great grandson, and Pius still exists as a perpetual who is... doing something???

At least they've been consistently inconsistent with the character, which I can appreciate.

What worries me in regards to the character is that they will change the events of the final battle, as that is what the character arcs of the Emperor, Horus and Pius are leaning towards.
The known version is simple - The Emperor cannot bring himself to kill Horus until he sees him kill someone in such a horrible and uncaring way that it becomes clear that the son he loved is gone, after which he obliterates him. I quite like this version, but I highly doubt it will remain, for the following reasons (spoilers for Know No Fear, Vengeful Spirit and just the general characterisation of the Emperor in the mid to recent Horus Heresy novels)

First they made Pius a Perpetual, and made it so that he is actively trying to be there for the final battle with a very special weapon. This implies that they will change it so that Pius actually does something other than die in the final battle, like use the weapon to make Horus somehow vulnerable.
This is supported by the fact that Horus has received a rather vast power increase, which also completely stripped all personality out of him and made him utterly bland as a character.
The third factor is the Emperor's characterisation in Master of Mankind and other recent Black Library novels, which has been of a completely heartless inhuman monster who sees the Primarchs as weapons and nothing else, and does not even seem capable of forming real bonds with people. The Emperor depicted in these books would never hold back out of love.
Thus, here is my prediction for the final battle, and one I really do not like the sound of:
Horus slays Sanguinius. Horus and the Emperor battle, and they are either evenly matched or Horus is winning. Ollanius Pius runs in and stabs Horus, then gets crushed. The Emperor uses that opportunity to destroy Horus, à la Eowyn killing the Witch King after Merry stabs him with the Barrow-blade of Westernesse.

[The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness]

You know, I'm really glad I stopped caring about most things Horus Heresy-related years ago, now.

[The Biggles Syndicate]

Is Ollanious Pious the Oll Persson guy from KNF?

[Theodosiya]

Explain what Ward and Goto sins, please...(although I know that one of it involves the Ultrasmurfs)

[Tethys 13]

Explain what Ward and Goto sins, please...(although I know that one of it involves the Ultrasmurfs)

Matt Ward is indeed infamous for the focus on the Ultramarines at the expense (and active suggestion of inferiority) of other chapters, and is often blamed for some of the larger instances of 'power creep'.
C.S. Goto wrote the Dawn of War tie-in novels, which showed very little concern for the lore and continuity of the setting (making Lelith Hesperax a sorceress and worshipper of Slaanesh, having back-flipping Terminators with Multilasers, etcetera) as well as just being very badly written books.

[Vassenor]

Explain what Ward and Goto sins, please...(although I know that one of it involves the Ultrasmurfs)

Matt Ward is indeed infamous for the focus on the Ultramarines at the expense (and active suggestion of inferiority) of other chapters, and is often blamed for some of the larger instances of 'power creep'.
C.S. Goto wrote the Dawn of War tie-in novels, which showed very little concern for the lore and continuity of the setting (making Lelith Hesperax a sorceress and worshipper of Slaanesh, having back-flipping Terminators with Multilasers, etcetera) as well as just being very badly written books.

Also Ward turned the Grey Knights into a bunch of overpowered Mary Sues too.

[Tethys 13]

Also Ward turned the Grey Knights into a bunch of overpowered Mary Sues too.

Ah yes, thank you for reminding me. Honestly I find the Grey Knights quite distasteful as a faction in the lore, they manage to be arrogant about being useless against most of the Imperium's enemies - they literally sat out of the war when Terra was completely at the mercy of an enemy force because it was not Daemons so they were too good for it. They are truly inferior to the Exorcists chapter.

[The Huskar Social Union]

That whole "possessed and exorcised of demons" thing is... concerning

[Baltenstein]

Also Ward turned the Grey Knights into a bunch of overpowered Mary Sues too.

Ah yes, thank you for reminding me. Honestly I find the Grey Knights quite distasteful as a faction in the lore, they manage to be arrogant about being useless against most of the Imperium's enemies - they literally sat out of the war when Terra was completely at the mercy of an enemy force because it was not Daemons so they were too good for it. They are truly inferior to the Exorcists chapter.

Don't forget the "Taking a shower in Sororitas blood" thing.

[Chan Island]

Also Ward turned the Grey Knights into a bunch of overpowered Mary Sues too.

Ah yes, thank you for reminding me. Honestly I find the Grey Knights quite distasteful as a faction in the lore, they manage to be arrogant about being useless against most of the Imperium's enemies - they literally sat out of the war when Terra was completely at the mercy of an enemy force because it was not Daemons so they were too good for it. They are truly inferior to the Exorcists chapter.

Don't forget being given the most goddamn most expensive equipment the imperium can provide, stuff that even the astartes have to scrounge and hold closely. All that so that... they can only fight demons, instead of everyone.

Not to mention that the Grey Knights have a huge boast about none of their members ever falling to chaos... when the Sisters of Battle are an organisation millions of times larger, that are actually competent at fighting against every enemy the Imperium can throw at them, and yet have only had one person willingly fall to chaos.

The exorcists are just a better fighting force than the Grey Knights in every way that counts.

[Tethys 13]

Don't forget being given the most goddamn most expensive equipment the imperium can provide, stuff that even the astartes have to scrounge and hold closely. All that so that... they can only fight demons, instead of everyone.

Not to mention that the Grey Knights have a huge boast about none of their members ever falling to chaos... when the Sisters of Battle are an organisation millions of times larger, that are actually competent at fighting against every enemy the Imperium can throw at them, and yet have only had one person willingly fall to chaos.

The exorcists are just a better fighting force than the Grey Knights in every way that counts.

One of my old (and not yet fully abandoned) army ideas was a Chaos Warband called the Death Knights led by a fallen Grey Knight. I came up with a situation where that would be a possibility - A particularly arrogant, violent and secretive Grey Knight was wounded by a servant of Nurgle badly enough to be forced into suspended animation, thus reducing his strength of will. The diseased weapon also damaged the wards beneath his skin, leaving him vulnerable. Finally, their ship's Gellar Field and that Grey Knight's medical chamber in particular were sabotaged by the Changeling right when the Great Rift opened with the ship in the middle, thus exposing him to the entirety of Chaos in that weakened state. To answer why the Changeling was able to hide on a Grey Knights ship, I will direct your attention to that time the Changeling managed to fool the entire Dark Angels upper echelon, including a Librarian actively reading its mind.
That is enough to satisfy me at least, and if people were to object, I would not care. I would much rather play a single controversial Chaos Grey Knight than an army of normal ones.

This was the concept model I painted for the warband:

I would also like to point out that the Vostroyans are mistrusted for choosing to defend their planet rather than choose a side in the Horus Heresy, yet as far as I know there has never been a confirmed Vostroyan heretic in the lore.

[Chan Island]

Don't forget being given the most goddamn most expensive equipment the imperium can provide, stuff that even the astartes have to scrounge and hold closely. All that so that... they can only fight demons, instead of everyone.

Not to mention that the Grey Knights have a huge boast about none of their members ever falling to chaos... when the Sisters of Battle are an organisation millions of times larger, that are actually competent at fighting against every enemy the Imperium can throw at them, and yet have only had one person willingly fall to chaos.

The exorcists are just a better fighting force than the Grey Knights in every way that counts.

One of my old (and not yet fully abandoned) army ideas was a Chaos Warband called the Death Knights led by a fallen Grey Knight. I came up with a situation where that would be a possibility - A particularly arrogant, violent and secretive Grey Knight was wounded by a servant of Nurgle badly enough to be forced into suspended animation, thus reducing his strength of will. The diseased weapon also damaged the wards beneath his skin, leaving him vulnerable. Finally, their ship's Gellar Field and that Grey Knight's medical chamber in particular were sabotaged by the Changeling right when the Great Rift opened with the ship in the middle, thus exposing him to the entirety of Chaos in that weakened state. To answer why the Changeling was able to hide on a Grey Knights ship, I will direct your attention to that time the Changeling managed to fool the entire Dark Angels upper echelon, including a Librarian actively reading its mind.
That is enough to satisfy me at least, and if people were to object, I would not care. I would much rather play a single controversial Chaos Grey Knight than an army of normal ones.

This was the concept model I painted for the warband:

I would also like to point out that the Vostroyans are mistrusted for choosing to defend their planet rather than choose a side in the Horus Heresy, yet as far as I know there has never been a confirmed Vostroyan heretic in the lore.

I like that concept. A chaos grey knight would actually be a hell of a scary threat with lots of interesting ideas potential.

I say to the guy who made that amazing rogue Tau army with the literal ghostkeel. You got this. Your model of a recently fallen primaris is certainly interesting.

Also, the vostroyans are another one, because didn't they actually just send supplies to the Imperium side? Like they didn't send soldiers (like a couple thousand angry beefeaters could do anything but make Angron's arm tired lol) but sent loads of tanks, weapons and materiel to help the fight? That one is also a bit of a weird one.

[Trollgaard]

You could try Ironbreaker shields - that is what I used for my Skavenblight albino Stormvermin. You could also look at some of the less-corroded non-wooden Skeleton Warrior shields, or perhaps the Dwarf Warriors ones with the flying hammer.

I will have to look into some of those!

Tethys: I do believe I am actually going to go for hoplite shields made by Victrix once the UK is able to start shipping stuff again...so maybe late May-ish?

[Impaled Nazarene]

I reinstalled Tabletop Simulator but the workshop broke or something
If it comes back online later anyone want to add me?

Also recommendations for things to download and tips in general would be nice

[Tethys 13]

Tethys: I do believe I am actually going to go for hoplite shields made by Victrix once the UK is able to start shipping stuff again...so maybe late May-ish?

It did not occur to me to look beyond Games Workshop, but that is probably wiser.

I like that concept. A chaos grey knight would actually be a hell of a scary threat with lots of interesting ideas potential.

I say to the guy who made that amazing rogue Tau army with the literal ghostkeel. You got this. Your model of a recently fallen primaris is certainly interesting.

Also, the vostroyans are another one, because didn't they actually just send supplies to the Imperium side? Like they didn't send soldiers (like a couple thousand angry beefeaters could do anything but make Angron's arm tired lol) but sent loads of tanks, weapons and materiel to help the fight? That one is also a bit of a weird one.

The Vostroyans are actually inspired by Cossacks - when I learned that, I had to repaint the names on all of my tanks, as I had done them in Russian when Ukranian would be more appropriate.

The Death Knights are still quite low on my list of planned armies, but I might still do them. Currently the most likely prospect for my next army is one I only came up with last week, the Space Mammoths chapter, for which I have come up with the following:

The Space Mammoths are a Space Marine chapter of White Scars descent, though their primary inheritance from that legion is not in tactics or culture but in how much they are overlooked. They have been involved in many major and famous campaigns, yet imperial scholars often forget to include them when chronicling those events. The Black Crusades, the War of the Beast, the Wars for Armageddon, the Badab War… the Space Mammoths have banners, legends and honour rolls in their Fortress Monastery from all of these events, yet rarely are they credited anywhere else. Indeed, they are so forgettable that imperial commanders have been known to ask for reinforcements before remembering that they had already arrived, and sometimes enemy forces leave themselves unreasonably vulnerable to their attacks by seemingly having forgotten that they were there. One of Abaddon the Despoiler’s advisors raised the matter as a cause for concern, citing that such a thing would surely be impossible without the intervention of one of the Chaos Gods or a being of similar power, but the Warmaster dismissed it as unimportant.

The Chapter's histories place them as a 2nd founding chapter, though various inquisitors of the Ordo Astartes have theorised that they were more likely to be 3rd or 4th. Two of them started a clandestine war over their differing viewpoints, one that their distant successors are continuing despite having long forgotten the original cause. An inquisitor Topcark claimed to have proven that they were in fact one of the missing legions, using evidence such as their vast armouries for a chapter and even suggesting that their lack of presence was due to how thoroughly they were erased from history. His proposal was reviewed by the Ordo Astartes, after which his rosette was confiscated and his position removed. He claimed that such a cover-up proved him right, but lost his way while trying to reach the chapter’s homeworld of Rangell, and ended up flying into the middle of an Ork empire, never to be seen again.

The chapter’s organisation would be fairly Codex-standard, if not for one glaring alteration – every member of the chapter is equipped with Indomitus Terminator armour. This is due to a bureaucratic error in the mid-33rd Millennium that saw the entire Imperium’s supply of newly-forged Terminator Armour for the decade accidentally delivered to their homeworld. The chapter had been waiting for resupply for centuries, and so did not correct their mistake. Afterwards there was an inquiry into the disappearance of two thousand suits of Indomitus plate following complaints by the chapters who should have received them, but the Adeptus Mechanicus could find no record or memory of where they had been delivered to, so the shipment was assumed lost. Thus, while the chapter may organise itself in a Codex-compliant fashion, every Battle-Brother from the Chapter Master to the newest scout wears a suit of Indomitus warplate.

It is said that in the chapter’s early years they were not so compliant, and lived up to their name more directly – indeed, to visit their Fortress-Monastery would have you see many tapestries depicting the chapter’s warriors riding colossal mammoths into battle. Sadly, in an age of galactic war, that was soon found to be a truly impractical idea. Mammoth losses in even small engagements were unsustainable, often as many falling prey to the unsuitable environments as to enemy fire. It is said that some mammoths do still live on Rangell, however they are now a protected species even after several millennia. This caused a problem, for the chapter’s ancient customs demanded trophies from the beasts, and could not be changed. Instead a loophole was devised utilising the synthetic creation of furs, tusks and bones, something the chapter is determined never to let any other find out about, as they find it embarrassing. This is not the only area in which their outdated practices hold them back – due to ambiguous wording in their strictures, their current Chapter Master is a Dreadnought who rarely awakens yet cannot be removed from that position, so in all aspects save for their title the chapter is led by its First Captain.

The chapter’s primary tactic is faintly reminiscent of their parent legion of old and early practices, despite their cumbersome equipment. They utilise a combined armoured spearhead (the Mammoth Charge) with a teleport shock assault (the Swift Strike). While their offence is thus surprisingly rapid, they falter somewhat in rapid manoeuvres once committed to the battle, which has cost them in a number of engagements. Fortunately, their defeats are just as easily forgotten by the rest of the imperium as their victories.

The colour scheme I am currently thinking of going with is a dark brown with white arms and details in bone. I would also use Chaos Terminator tusked heads, and furs and totems from various kits.

[Germanic Templars]

Also Ward turned the Grey Knights into a bunch of overpowered Mary Sues too.

Ah yes, thank you for reminding me. Honestly I find the Grey Knights quite distasteful as a faction in the lore, they manage to be arrogant about being useless against most of the Imperium's enemies - they literally sat out of the war when Terra was completely at the mercy of an enemy force because it was not Daemons so they were too good for it. They are truly inferior to the Exorcists chapter.

I think I found 3rd favorite Space Marine chapter. Exorcists actually sound like a chapter that is worth joining. I mean, their emblem looks like something from Doom Slayer.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Exorcists

[Theodosiya]

Please rate from best to worst loyalist chapters? (Absolutely NO HERESY. Or you'll be BLAMMED)

[The Huskar Social Union]

Please rate from best to worst loyalist chapters? (Absolutely NO HERESY. Or you'll be BLAMMED)

Best: Anything related to Fists
Worst: Everything else.

[Theodosiya]

Please rate from best to worst loyalist chapters? (Absolutely NO HERESY. Or you'll be BLAMMED)

Best: Anything related to Fists
Worst: Everything else.

Dark Angels, Salamanders, Ultrasmurfs, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Raven Guard, White Scars, Bluhd Rehvehns...?

[Tethys 13]

Please rate from best to worst loyalist chapters? (Absolutely NO HERESY. Or you'll be BLAMMED)

I tried to write a proper ranking, but gave up fifty Chapters in. I will just give a few examples:
I like the White Scars, Celestial Lions, Space Sharks, Salamanders, Imperial Fists, Minotaurs, Crimson Fists, Fists Exemplar, Exorcists, Black Templars, Space Sharks, and a fair few others.

I do not like the Space Wolves (too wolf-obsessed), Marines Malevolent (though they can be amusing), Mortifactors (disgusting), Grey Knights (the worst), Doom Warriors (Space Marines who specialise in Exterminatus), Angels of Redemption (so Fallen-obsessed they keep abandoning allies and civilians so now no imperial force wants them as allies), and some others I am fortunately forgetting.

[Crookfur]

Please rate from best to worst loyalist chapters? (Absolutely NO HERESY. Or you'll be BLAMMED)

(INSERT home brew chapter here)
Space wolves
Angry marines
Emperor's pointy sticks
Everything else
Blood ravens

[The Huskar Social Union]

I always thought the Angry Marines were too cringey for my tastes.

[Crookfur]

I always thought the Angry Marines were too cringey for my tastes.

I just like the silliness